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Thread: Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As I said in another thread, Arman (Armenia) is the name of this land in Old Persian and in all possibility it was Alman (l>r in Old Persian), a Gutian tribe in the west of Iran who were mentioned in many Akkadian sources, if Gutians were originally the same proto-Indo-Europeans (however I believe they became Germanic on a Semitic substrate), Almani/Armenian were also a PIE people.
    Is that Arman the same as the Arman (Armani/Armanum) which Archi suggests was located near modern Samsat, Turkey? If so, that's where the first Indo-European names were attested, according to Damgaard, from Eblaite texts, which were dated to the 25rd century BCE, I believe.

    Almani could explain Alemanni. This is actually proposed in this article: https://cogniarchae.com/2016/03/09/a...f-the-germans/
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 12-07-19 at 21:14. Reason: fixed typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Is that Arman the same as the Arman (Armani/Armanum) with Archi suggests was located near modern Samsat, Turkey? If so, that's where the first Indo-European names were attested, according to Damgaard, from Eblaite texts, which were dated to the 25rd century BCE, I believe.

    Almani could explain Alemanni. This is actually proposed in this article: https://cogniarchae.com/2016/03/09/a...f-the-germans/
    The article cited specifically cites a website dedicated to alternate history. I would take everything within the article with several large grains of salt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The article cited specifically cites a website dedicated to alternate history. I would take everything within the article with several large grains of salt.
    Thanks. Honestly, I didn't notice that. I had just searched "German Almani Arman Alemanni" and that was one of the results. Clearly somebody else had been on a similar train of thought as Cyrus. I'm not saying it's correct though.

    I think that there is some compelling evidence for Euphratic IE or an early Armenian/Anatolian/Caucasian Indo-European people(s). I don't necessarily think that they were the Gutians (I think it would have pre-dated the Gutians), but that the Gutians might have descended from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Is that Arman the same as the Arman (Armani/Armanum) which Archi suggests was located near modern Samsat, Turkey? If so, that's where the first Indo-European names were attested, according to Damgaard, from Eblaite texts, which were dated to the 25rd century BCE, I believe.
    Almani could explain Alemanni. This is actually proposed in this article: https://cogniarchae.com/2016/03/09/a...f-the-germans/
    You can read about the relation between Armani and Alman here: https://books.google.com/books?id=P8...page&q&f=false

    Alman was in the west of Iran (land of Guti and Suedin) but Armani was in Syria (modern Aleppo), it is clear that Old Persian sources talk about the first one as Arman, not the Syrian city.

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    There seems to be considerable confusion over Armi/Arme/Arman/Armani/Armanum. Some may have been different places from one another. Some may have been the same place. One of them, the one near Ebla, was mentioned in the Damgaard et el paper as being the oldest attested Indo-European geographic name and personal names mentioned in relation to it the oldest attested Indo-European personal names and suggest these names come from an early Anatolian (proto-Hittite) language. Alfonso Archi locates this Armani near Samsat, Turkey.

    Part of the confusion is the relationship to Ebla and Ibla, which may or may not have been the same place themselves.

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    Herodotus calls the land of Guti and Suedin as the land of Germanians and Danes (modern Kermanshah and Dena), so it seems in the first millennium bc another Indo-Eruopean people migrated to this land.

    The first known Armenian king is Skjld (Skayordi in Iranian/Armenian sources), who ruled in Armenia in the 7th century BC. We read about Rusa III, king of Urartu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusa_III According to the Armenian historian Moses of Chorene, Rusa's father Erimena can probably be identified with Paruyr Skayordi, who helped the Median king Cyaxares to conquer Assyria, for which Cyaxares recognized him as the king of Armenia, although the Medes ultimately reneged on this; significantly later, during the reign of King Astyages, the Medes conquered and annexed Armenia.

    Grandson of Skayordi: https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang...ncient+armenia was Hratchia who could be the same Hrothgar, grandson son of Skjld, in the Germanic sources. His name probably relates to Iranian/Armenian Hauraut (God of Ararat mountain), Heorot in the Germanic sources.

    Iranian sources talk about two Gotarzi (Gotar/Guti) heroes with the names of Bijan (Bee) and Gorgin (wolf), Beowulf (bee-wolf) in the Germanic sources:

    https://www.saatchiart.com/art/Paint...1/4805082/view "The people of Arman (Alman/Armenia), a region located at the border of Iran and Turan, complained to Kay Khosrow (Cyaxares) that they were suffering from attacks by wild boars (Gorazdal). The king said he would reward anyone who solve the problem. Bijan announed his readiness. The king sent Gorgin, the son of Milad, as a guid with him. ..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf "Beowulf, a hero of the Geats, comes to the aid of Hrothgar, the king of the Danes, whose mead hall in Heorot has been under attack by a monster known as Grendel. ..."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Herodotus calls the land of Guti and Suedin as the land of Germanians and Danes (modern Kermanshah and Dena), so it seems in the first millennium bc another Indo-Eruopean people migrated to this land.

    The first known Armenian king is Skj�ld (Skayordi in Iranian/Armenian sources), who ruled in Armenia in the 7th century BC. We read about Rusa III, king of Urartu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusa_III According to the Armenian historian Moses of Chorene, Rusa's father Erimena can probably be identified with Paruyr Skayordi, who helped the Median king Cyaxares to conquer Assyria, for which Cyaxares recognized him as the king of Armenia, although the Medes ultimately reneged on this; significantly later, during the reign of King Astyages, the Medes conquered and annexed Armenia.

    Grandson of Skayordi: https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang...ncient+armenia was Hratchia who could be the same Hrothgar, grandson son of Skj�ld, in the Germanic sources. His name probably relates to Iranian/Armenian Hauraut (God of Ararat mountain), Heorot in the Germanic sources.

    Iranian sources talk about two Gotarzi (Gotar/Guti) heroes with the names of Bijan (Bee) and Gorgin (wolf), Beowulf (bee-wolf) in the Germanic sources:

    https://www.saatchiart.com/art/Paint...1/4805082/view "The people of Arman (Alman/Armenia), a region located at the border of Iran and Turan, complained to Kay Khosrow (Cyaxares) that they were suffering from attacks by wild boars (Gorazdal). The king said he would reward anyone who solve the problem. Bijan announed his readiness. The king sent Gorgin, the son of Milad, as a guid with him. ..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf "Beowulf, a hero of the Geats, comes to the aid of Hrothgar, the king of the Danes, whose mead hall in Heorot has been under attack by a monster known as Grendel. ..."

    This just really reeks of pseudo-historical nonsense, from misinterpreting Herodotus to anachronism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean
    This just really reeks of pseudo-historical nonsense, from misinterpreting Herodotus to anachronism.
    It is clear that you don't believe Indo-Europeans originally lived in Iran/Armenia, of course I think you actually don't want to believe that any European culture, whether Germanic, Celtic, Italic or Hellenic, originated in Iran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is clear that you don't believe Indo-Europeans originally lived in Iran/Armenia, of course I think you actually don't want to believe that any European culture, whether Germanic, Celtic, Italic or Hellenic, originated in Iran.
    Making claims about what theories I support or not? Without knowing what I actually support? Ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Herodotus calls the land of Guti and Suedin as the land of Germanians and Danes (modern Kermanshah and Dena), so it seems in the first millennium bc another Indo-Eruopean people migrated to this land.

    The first known Armenian king is Skj�ld (Skayordi in Iranian/Armenian sources), who ruled in Armenia in the 7th century BC. We read about Rusa III, king of Urartu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusa_III According to the Armenian historian Moses of Chorene, Rusa's father Erimena can probably be identified with Paruyr Skayordi, who helped the Median king Cyaxares to conquer Assyria, for which Cyaxares recognized him as the king of Armenia, although the Medes ultimately reneged on this; significantly later, during the reign of King Astyages, the Medes conquered and annexed Armenia.

    Grandson of Skayordi: https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang...ncient+armenia was Hratchia who could be the same Hrothgar, grandson son of Skj�ld, in the Germanic sources. His name probably relates to Iranian/Armenian Hauraut (God of Ararat mountain), Heorot in the Germanic sources.

    Iranian sources talk about two Gotarzi (Gotar/Guti) heroes with the names of Bijan (Bee) and Gorgin (wolf), Beowulf (bee-wolf) in the Germanic sources:

    https://www.saatchiart.com/art/Paint...1/4805082/view "The people of Arman (Alman/Armenia), a region located at the border of Iran and Turan, complained to Kay Khosrow (Cyaxares) that they were suffering from attacks by wild boars (Gorazdal). The king said he would reward anyone who solve the problem. Bijan announed his readiness. The king sent Gorgin, the son of Milad, as a guid with him. ..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf "Beowulf, a hero of the Geats, comes to the aid of Hrothgar, the king of the Danes, whose mead hall in Heorot has been under attack by a monster known as Grendel. ..."

    One of the big issues I have with this is that it's pretty clear that Steppe peoples spread PIE. The period in the South Caucasus would be before 2300 BCE. You're talking about 700 BCE and afterwards. So more than 1500 years afterwards. I do think that IE was brought to the Steppe by people from the South Caucasus who were genetically close to modern Armenians. I do think that it's possible that some IE cultures/people are not Steppe derived, specially Anatolians. But I have major issues with suggesting that Germanic, etc languages started in the South Caucasus beyond the PIE or PPIE being in the South Caucasus.

    Also, Bijan doesn't mean "bee"--it means "victor." It's the same name as Latin Victor and Armenian Viken.

    Khorenatsi doesn't say that Erimena can be connected to Hrachya or Paryur or any of these other peoples. He ignores Urartu directly, instead saying something to the effect of there having been an Armenian kingdom around Van. Later historians tried to reconcile Khorenatsi's kings' list with the Urartians records. Erminena has also been connected to Aramenak, who was a son or grandson of Hayk.

    I should note, there is a Urartian text that talks about a king Saka-tur/Saga-tur*, who very well could have been Skayordi (who would have been alive during Rusa II's reign)...so likely, Khorenatsi was talking about real people...but we don't have period records of them (Khorenasti was writing 1000 years after Urartu). But the Urartian sources could corroborate Khorenatsi, at least as far as Skayordi goes.

    *tur could be an Armenian word. It means something like "gift". It's a word Armenians still use and is from an PIE root. Vordi/ordi means "son" in Classical Armenian. So Saka-tur could mean something like "gift of/given by Saka"...which could be "giant" or it could be "Scythian." Skayordi would mean "son of Skay." Hskay meant "giant" in Classical Armenian. Skayordi's full name, according to Khorenatsi, was Skayordi Haykazun. Haykazun means "Armenian" in a broad sense, but more specifically, "descendant of Hayk." Hayk was supposed to be a giant (not that I believe that) but that could be what Khorenatsi was getting at.

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    Something interesting. Sumerian kur "mountain" (also "foreign land") may come from a PIE root gwer. One of the Armenian words for mountain is sar*, which very likely comes from this root. Could the original Armenian word been something like ker or kar but due to satemization it became sar? Incidentally, Sumerian kur is identified as having possibly been a mountain the Zagros. This, again, could be evidence that the South Caucasians brought IE north and not just their genes (rather than the EEHGs introducing IE to the South Caucasians once they'd arrived in the Steppes). The fact that Kartvelian languages use gora for "mountains; hills" suggests, again, that PIE were in contact with proto-Kartvelians, which, again, I think makes more sense geographically in the South Caucasus rather than the north. Once in the Steppes, this word could be transferred to the proto-Uralics.

    So South Caucasian=IE>Sumerian and Proto Kartvelian, then Steppe>Proto-Uralic

    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala...an_and_pie.pdf (page 8)

    *the article I linked uses another popular Armenian word for mountain ler and says it came from PIE gwer. I don't know if it's possible to get G>L in Armenian, but I know it's possible to go from G>K and K>S...so I think that they likely used the wrong word in the article (i.e. they should have used sar but instead used ler). As far as I know, ler and sar are synonyms and I don't know if there's really a difference in their meanings.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 13-07-19 at 20:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Making claims about what theories I support or not? Without knowing what I actually support? Ridiculous.
    Would you please tell me what your theory is and what you support? Is it possible to talk about the original land of a people but not any cultural between this land and these people? For example we say Arabia is the original land of Arabs but there is no cultural relation between this land and Arabs? So religious or mytho-historical similarities between Moroccans and Arabs are pseudo-historical nonsense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    One of the big issues I have with this is that it's pretty clear that Steppe peoples spread PIE. The period in the South Caucasus would be before 2300 BCE. You're talking about 700 BCE and afterwards. So more than 1500 years afterwards. I do think that IE was brought to the Steppe by people from the South Caucasus who were genetically close to modern Armenians. I do think that it's possible that some IE cultures/people are not Steppe derived, specially Anatolians. But I have major issues with suggesting that Germanic, etc languages started in the South Caucasus beyond the PIE or PPIE being in the South Caucasus.
    Steppe people spread steppe culture, like Scythian culture, Indo-Europeans were mostly civilized people and lived in their own lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Also, Bijan doesn't mean "bee"--it means "victor." It's the same name as Latin Victor and Armenian Viken.
    I'm talking about Persian, not Latin, the Persian word for "victor" is piruz.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Khorenatsi doesn't say that Erimena can be connected to Hrachya or Paryur or any of these other peoples. He ignores Urartu directly, instead saying something to the effect of there having been an Armenian kingdom around Van. Later historians tried to reconcile Khorenatsi's kings' list with the Urartians records. Erminena has also been connected to Aramenak, who was a son or grandson of Hayk.

    I should note, there is a Urartian text that talks about a king Saka-tur/Saga-tur*, who very well could have been Skayordi (who would have been alive during Rusa II's reign)...so likely, Khorenatsi was talking about real people...but we don't have period records of them (Khorenasti was writing 1000 years after Urartu). But the Urartian sources could corroborate Khorenatsi, at least as far as Skayordi goes.

    *tur could be an Armenian word. It means something like "gift". It's a word Armenians still use and is from an PIE root. Vordi/ordi means "son" in Classical Armenian. So Saka-tur could mean something like "gift of/given by Saka"...which could be "giant" or it could be "Scythian." Skayordi would mean "son of Skay." Hskay meant "giant" in Classical Armenian. Skayordi's full name, according to Khorenatsi, was Skayordi Haykazun. Haykazun means "Armenian" in a broad sense, but more specifically, "descendant of Hayk." Hayk was supposed to be a giant (not that I believe that) but that could be what Khorenatsi was getting at.
    The relation between the name of Skayordi/Skyold and Scythians is very possible, Strabo says that Scythians conquered Armenia (7th century BC) and named the best part of it after themselves Sakasene (Saksen), it is possible that Saxons as a Germanic people, adopted the same name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I'm talking about Persian, not Latin, the Persian word for "victor" is piruz.
    I know. But the Persian name "Bijan" means "hero; victor" it doesn't mean "bee." Maybe the word for "bee" in Farsi is similar/the same sounding, but as far as names go, "Bijan" is unrelated to "bee." Maybe Victor=Piruz and Bijan (but due to betacism it is possible to go from B to V). Vijan looks more similar to Victor than Piruz/Firuz (or even Viruz), especially when compared to Armenian "Viken/Vigen", which does mean "Victor." Maybe Bijan came from an Indic/Graeo-Latin/Armenian>Iranian, whereas Piruz is native Iranian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The relation between the name of Skayordi/Skyold and Scythians is very possible, Strabo says that Scythians conquered Armenia (7th century BC) and named the best part of it after themselves Sakasene (Saksen), it is possible that Saxons as a Germanic people, adopted the same name.
    I don't know what Skyold is...if that's a typo or not.

    We know that there were likely Scythians in Armenia (or rather, Urartu) independently of Strabo. Ashkenaz being a province of Armenia Biblically, for starters. Compare Ishkugulu, attested by the Urartians in the region of northern modern-Armenia, with Ashkenaz. There was also Yeriakh in the same region at the same time...this is likely "land of the Aryans." Incidentally, these lands were just north of Etuini (Hatiyo?) and Diauehi, both of which have been etymologized as Armenian. Plus, they've found Scythian-type arrows in Urartu. So I think what likely happened what that the Scythians and Cimmerians came in from the north and/or west, formed some sort of union with the indigenous Armenian tribes (native to the Plains of Ara, spanning from Ararat to Lake Sevan) who were probably being massacred by the Urartians (as we have seen in Metsamor with evidence of burned villages and beheaded bodies). Around this time, the Medes were harassing Urartu from the south. They all managed to overthrow Urartu and the Iranians installed an ethnic Armenian vassal.

    As for your Saxon theory, that seems like reasonable theory considering that the Scythians/Saka expanded over a huge tract of land nearly reaching Germany. The Scythians might even have originally come from eastern Europe/the Baltic region themselves.

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    I just looked it up. Vijētā and Abhijeet are the Hindi versions of Victor, FYI. So it seems possible that Bijan was Indic>Iranian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Something interesting. Sumerian kur "mountain" (also "foreign land") may come from a PIE root gwer. One of the Armenian words for mountain is sar*, which very likely comes from this root. Could the original Armenian word been something like ker or kar but due to satemization it became sar? Incidentally, Sumerian kur is identified as having possibly been a mountain the Zagros. This, again, could be evidence that the South Caucasians brought IE north and not just their genes (rather than the EEHGs introducing IE to the South Caucasians once they'd arrived in the Steppes). The fact that Kartvelian languages use gora for "mountains; hills" suggests, again, that PIE were in contact with proto-Kartvelians, which, again, I think makes more sense geographically in the South Caucasus rather than the north. Once in the Steppes, this word could be transferred to the proto-Uralics.
    So South Caucasian=IE>Sumerian and Proto Kartvelian, then Steppe>Proto-Uralic
    http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala...an_and_pie.pdf (page 8)
    *the article I linked uses another popular Armenian word for mountain ler and says it came from PIE gwer. I don't know if it's possible to get G>L in Armenian, but I know it's possible to go from G>K and K>S...so I think that they likely used the wrong word in the article (i.e. they should have used sar but instead used ler). As far as I know, ler and sar are synonyms and I don't know if there's really a difference in their meanings.
    "mountaineer, caveman" is really good etymology for Kerman/German, it should be also compared to the name of Kurmanj (Iranian Kurds) and Kurd itself, as you said Sumerian kur means "mountain" and proto-Indo-European gʷar means the same, the PIE word could be changed to kur both in Germanic and Hittite.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In re to Saxon & Scythian...
    They have very different etymologies (former likely from "to cut" and the latter from "shoot"). The Scythians were of diverse origins with varying autosomal blends with affinity to Pontic-Steppe populations, and as I recall Scythians did not extend west toward the North Sea at all. It is far more likely that Saka and Saxon are coincidences, and frankly that is much more likely if we are being realistic, the repeated attempts to link Saxon with Scythian or Saxons with Scythians smells of the same nonsense spouted by Sharon Turner. The Scythians (and by extension, Sarmatians) had more contact with Eastern Germanic tribes like Goths, Gepids, in the Chernyakhov culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    In re to Saxon & Scythian...
    They have very different etymologies (former likely from "to cut" and the latter from "shoot"). The Scythians were of diverse origins with varying autosomal blends with affinity to Pontic-Steppe populations, and as I recall Scythians did not extend west toward the North Sea at all. It is far more likely that Saka and Saxon are coincidences, and frankly that is much more likely if we are being realistic, the repeated attempts to link Saxon with Scythian or Saxons with Scythians smells of the same nonsense spouted by Sharon Turner. The Scythians (and by extension, Sarmatians) had more contact with Eastern Germanic tribes like Goths, Gepids, in the Chernyakhov culture.
    Thanks! I appreciate you clearling this up.

    Do you think that Scythian was a "lifestyle" more than an ethnic group. Maybe like what "Kurd" was until fairly recently or kind of like "Sea People"?

    I am curious what your model of PIE expansion is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I just looked it up. Vijētā and Abhijeet are the Hindi versions of Victor, FYI. So it seems possible that Bijan was Indic>Iranian.
    A Hindi name for a Persian hero?! The actual Persian name is Bizhan, zh doesn't exist in Indian and Latin phenologies. Persian Bizhan "bee" has actually an onomatopoeic origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    A Hindi name for a Persian hero?! The actual Persian name is Bizhan, zh doesn't exist in Indian and Latin phenologies. Persian Bizhan "bee" has actually an onomatopoeic origin.
    There are Iranian names for Armenian heroes and Iranian names for Hindi heroes and Persian and Hindi are related anyhow. I mean, you yourself just agreed that Skayordi (an Armenian king/patriarch/hero) could have been Scythian.

    Zh could be rendered as J. It's often rendered as J using Latin script (example, the Armenian version of Sargis: Serzh/Serj).

    Whatever--Iranian, Indian, Latin--Bijan/Bizhan is the same as Victor. The name makes more sense as "victor; hero" than it does as "bee" anyhow. All that I was saying was that if Piruz is the Persian word for "victor" than maybe Bijan is a borrowing. But I suspect that Iranian has it's own version (which would likely be Bijan) since clearly Sanskrit (Vijeeta/Abijeet), Armenian (Vigen/Viken), Greek (Viktoras) all have it, as well as numerous other IE languages. They can't all be borrowings from Latin or Greek.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 14-07-19 at 01:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The common factor between Armenia and the Baltic is that each appears to have hosted one successful steppic lineage, followed by a different later one. Regarding Armenian lineages, R1b-Z2103 developed first and R1a-Z94 later. For Baltic lineages, R1a-M417 developed first and R1b-U106 later. This might explain the only partly-satemised language in each region.


    The alternative is that the Steppe Armenians were pre-Yamnayan (as phylogenic analysis would suggest), and either (i) there had been a substantial dilution of their DNA (over a longer time period), or (ii) their DNA was not as heavily steppic when it arrived there in the first place (being derived from the North Caucasus, rather than the Northern Pontic-Caspian Steppe).
    How's this for a theory? It's a new twist on the old Hyes+Armens=Armenians theory.

    What if the Armani/Arman were a a pre-Steppe Indo-European population from the South Caucasus. Perhaps even the PPIE that Reich talks about, or their direct descendants, and the proto-Anatolian people from Damgaard et al's paper. Maybe they were the Shulaveri-Shomu culture or their direct heirs. Perhaps these people were the Indo-European culture that contributed to the Sumerian language. They would have been R1b-Z2103.

    Then, sometime around 2200 BCE, a new, "Steppe" Indo-European population arrived and settled in southern Georgia/northern Armenia. These people could have been the builders of Verin and Nerkin Navers, and given rise to the Trialeti-Vanadzor culture, the Metsamor people, and subsequently Hayasa, Diaehuni/Etuini. These people brought R1a-Z94 to Armenia. They were the Hatiyo/Haya.

    At some point, these people combined...maybe after the fall of Hayasa and/or during the Nairi confederacy.

    Perhaps the first language was centum and the latter satem. This could explain some of the archaic qualities present in Armenian, but also some of it's affinities to Balto-Slavic, Indo-Aryan, and Greek languages. This would also reconcile the weird geographic disparities that exist within Armenian history and Armenian-like names...some being located to the west of Armenia in south-central Turkey/northern Syria (and apparently also Iran) (Armi/Armani/Arman, etc) and also the "Hye" names along the Turkish and Georgian Black Sea Coasts (Hayasa, Aia) and the emphasis on Erzinka being an early Armenian religious center. In Armenian mythology, Hayk is the first Armenian. Apparently in the original story, his family were from the Aragats region of Armenia. His son, Aram, was from central Turkey, near Malatya (and, incidentally, near Samsat, where Archi placed Armani, and also near the likely locations of Aramtanna and Togarma). Perhaps this was confused for some reason...or the Hayks "absorbed" the Arams.

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    So, in other words, this is similar to the old "Armen theory" that was championed by Diakonoff and Greppin and some other people, but with the roles of the Armens (Armani) and Hye (Hatiyo) reversed (the Armani being native, the Hatiyo being the newcomers as opposed to the Hye being native and the Armens being the newcomers). Also, the "new" group enters via the Caucasus and not the Balkans. Also the date for the entry of the "new" group has been pushed back 1000 years or so.

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    There are Iranian names for Armenian heroes and Iranian names for Hindi heroes and Persian and Hindi are related anyhow. I mean, you yourself just agreed that Skayordi (an Armenian king/patriarch/hero) could have been Scythian.

    Zh could be rendered as J. It's often rendered as J using Latin script (example, the Armenian version of Sargis: Serzh/Serj).

    Whatever--Iranian, Indian, Latin--Bijan/Bizhan is the same as Victor. The name makes more sense as "victor; hero" than it does as "bee" anyhow. All that I was saying was that if Piruz is the Persian word for "victor" than maybe Bijan is a borrowing. But I suspect that Iranian has it's own version (which would likely be Bijan) since clearly Sanskrit (Vijeeta/Abijeet), Armenian (Vigen/Viken), Greek (Viktoras) all have it, as well as numerous other IE languages. They can't all be borrowings from Latin or Greek.
    I think it is possible that Bijan and Gorgin were actually one person, the proto-Germanic word for "bee" is *bijo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...anic/bij%C7%AD and Iranian and Germanic words for "wolf" have the same origin, the name of Beowulf sounds like Bee and Wolf, so they became two different persons in the Iranian mythology.

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    As I said in another thread, I'm working on deciphering ancient Jiroft inscriptions of Kerman, Oldest Evidence of Written Language.



    Just about those two short texts in linear Elamite script:





    I see the words of Kerman and Gedrosia (name of Jiroft on the early the Arab-Sasanian coins was Gedroft), it seems very possible that both names have Indo-European origin, so the original inscription could be also in an Indo-European language.

    Map of Gedrosian admixture:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think it is possible that Bijan and Gorgin were actually one person, the proto-Germanic word for "bee" is *bijo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...anic/bij%C7%AD and Iranian and Germanic words for "wolf" have the same origin, the name of Beowulf sounds like Bee and Wolf, so they became two different persons in the Iranian mythology.
    Beowulf has been etymologized by others as "bee wolf." It'd be the word for "bear." "Beo"+"wulf." So you could be right about that. It's also been etymologized as beadu (battle) wolf.

    But still, the name Bijan has not been connected to "bee" but rather is a version of "victor" and means "hero; victor; brave." Bijan (etymologized as "bee") does not make any sense as a hero's name...whereas something literally meaning "hero" does. Plus, as I said before, all other Indo-European languages from Latin to Indic languages have a version of this name that, ultimately deriving from PIE weyk--so why wouldn't Iranian?

    I do not think that the name Bijan is connected to "bee" and I cannot find any etymologies online that make that connection.

    As for Beowulf, I do not believe it is related to the story of Bijan in any way.

    "Bijou" ("shower" in French), "bay", "badge", etc. all kind of sound like Old English "beo." Perhaps there is a connection there? Obviously no, but the point is, anything can be a connection if you look hard enough.

    Wolves and bears were two mysterious, powerful, and frightening animals throughout the world. It wasn't just in Indo-European or Iranian cultures where people marveled at them.

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