Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

[tyuiopman]

As I said in another thread, I'm working on deciphering ancient Jiroft inscriptions of Kerman, Oldest Evidence of Written Language.



Just about those two short texts in linear Elamite script:





I see the words of Kerman and Gedrosia (name of Jiroft on the early the Arab-Sasanian coins was Gedroft), it seems very possible that both names have Indo-European origin, so the original inscription could be also in an Indo-European language.

Map of Gedrosian admixture:

These are only from 1000 BCE though. It's likely that Indo-Euro Iranians were already there by then. In other words, those names could be Persian or some related Iranian language.

[Cyrus]

Beowulf has been etymologized by others as "bee wolf." It'd be the word for "bear." "Beo"+"wulf." So you could be right about that. It's also been etymologized as beadu (battle) wolf.

But still, the name Bijan has not been connected to "bee" but rather is a version of "victor" and means "hero; victor; brave." Bijan (etymologized as "bee") does not make any sense as a hero's name...whereas something literally meaning "hero" does. Plus, as I said before, all other Indo-European languages from Latin to Indic languages have a version of this name that, ultimately deriving from PIE weyk--so why wouldn't Iranian?

I do not think that the name Bijan is connected to "bee" and I cannot find any etymologies online that make that connection.

As for Beowulf, I do not believe it is related to the story of Bijan in any way.

"Bijou" ("shower" in French), "bay", "badge", etc. all kind of sound like Old English "beo." Perhaps there is a connection there? Obviously no, but the point is, anything can be a connection if you look hard enough.

Wolves and bears were two mysterious, powerful, and frightening animals throughout the world. It wasn't just in Indo-European or Iranian cultures where people marveled at them.

If the word victor had a cognate in Iranian, it should be wixtor, Indo-European *k can never changed to j/zh in Iranian, we see some other names with the meaning of "bee" in other Indo-European cultures, like Melissa/Melisseus in Greek. In Iranian languages bij/buj (Avestan vawzh) just means "bee, wasp". Iranian linguists believe the name of Kabuja (Cambyses) relates to it too.

[Cyrus]

These are only from 1000 BCE though. It's likely that Indo-Euro Iranians were already there by then. In other words, those names could be Persian or some related Iranian language.

Linear Elamite was not used after the 3rd millennium BC.

[tyuiopman]

If the word victor had a cognate in Iranian, it should be wixtor, Indo-European *k can never changed to j/zh in Iranian, we see some other names with the meaning of "bee" in other Indo-European cultures, like Melissa/Melisseus in Greek. In Iranian languages bij/buj (Avestan vawzh) just means "bee, wasp". Iranian linguists believe the name of Kabuja (Cambyses) relates to it too.

Those names are all related to "honey" specifically though. Melid/Malatya is another. Miel.

Again, the Sanskrit versions of "Victor" are Vijeta/Abijeet. Those look very similar to Bijan to me. Armenian "Vigen" also looks similar to Bijan too. Again, it could have been filtered through an Indic language, which could explain the *k>j (meaning, it was already j when it arrived in Iranian). There was likely transference from Indian>Iranian as well as Iranian>Indian. Look at the words dev and deva/devi. Likely this was an Indian religious concept that was imposed on Iranians (and possibly Armenians, if Armenians didn't get it from the Iranians) who resented and rejected this imposition and turned Indian deva/devi (god/goddess) into dev (demon).

Just as there was significant Iranian influence on peoples such as Indians, Armenians, and Greeks, these respective peoples influenced Iranians too.

[tyuiopman]

Linear Elamite was not used after the 3rd millennium BC.

Sorry, I misread your link. I thought that it said that these inscriptions came from the 1st millennium BCE. I didn't realize that the article was talking about a separate inscription from the 1st millennium.

I'm not saying that these names/words are not Indo-European, but an alternate explanation is that these names could belong to an Elamite substratum into Iranian.

[Cyrus]

Those names are all related to "honey" specifically though. Melid/Malatya is another. Miel.

Again, the Sanskrit versions of "Victor" are Vijeta/Abijeet. Those look very similar to Bijan to me. Armenian "Vigen" also looks similar to Bijan too. Again, it could have been filtered through an Indic language, which could explain the *k>j (meaning, it was already j when it arrived in Iranian). There was likely transference from Indian>Iranian as well as Iranian>Indian. Look at the words dev and deva/devi. Likely this was an Indian religious concept that was imposed on Iranians (and possibly Armenians, if Armenians didn't get it from the Iranians) who resented and rejected this imposition and turned Indian deva/devi (god/goddess) into dev (demon).

Just as there was significant Iranian influence on peoples such as Indians, Armenians, and Greeks, these respective peoples influenced Iranians too.

The Sanskrit word seems to be from the verb vejate "to move with a quick darting motion, like a bee sting action". It can be really related to Bijan "bee".

[tyuiopman]

The Sanskrit word seems to be from the verb vejate "to move with a quick darting motion, like a bee sting action". It can be really related to Bijan "bee".

Maybe the words are related then. A conquerer/hero/brave person who moved quickly and "stings" when they act. A bee moves quickly and stings.

I think sometimes these people made puns, so to speak. Like related similar sounding words or depicted abstract ideas with similar sounding words/animal names. I've seen this sort of things a couple other times.

[nornosh]

Compare Latin Victor to Persian Bakhtiar with same meaning, could they be related?

[tyuiopman]

Compare Latin Victor to Persian Bakhtiar with same meaning, could they be related?

Bakhtiar means "lucky" or "blessed."

https://www.urdupoint.com/islamic-na...glish-193.html

http://quranicnames.com/bakhtiar/

[Cyrus]

Sorry, I misread your link. I thought that it said that these inscriptions came from the 1st millennium BCE. I didn't realize that the article was talking about a separate inscription from the 1st millennium.

I'm not saying that these names/words are not Indo-European, but an alternate explanation is that these names could belong to an Elamite substratum into Iranian.

It is possible but let's compare Jiroft with some Indo-European cultures.

For example we see entwined serpents in many Jiroft artifacts:



Kundalini, India:



Gutians:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida


The "libation vase of Gudea" with the dragon Mušḫuššu, dedicated to Ningishzida (21st century BC short chronology). The caduceus is interpreted as depicting the god himself.



Greece, Caduceus:



Cadusii:

[Pip]

I've tried matching up the spread of IE languages with development patterns in autosomal DNA, and cannot find clear trails from specifically an Irano-Armenian origin point. In my opinion, it is not the most likely point of origin for the core language group.
Culture is something else though. And there is also no one origin point for Indo-Europeans - people speaking IE languages descended from lots of different populations, and many people would have simply adopted these languages as the lingua francas of their time over the course of their history.
My calculations suggest that the first branchings of IE speaking people most likely occurred in a population ancestral to both Southern Steppe Yamnayans and early Armenians, probably located North of the Caucasus.
Having said that, these proto-IE speakers would most likely have spread to Armenia/Iran first, and the Baltic next. The model suggests IE was probably not spoken by core Anatolians, nor by West/Central R1b Beaker people until some time later.

[voloh]

Beowulf has been etymologized by others as "bee wolf." It'd be the word for "bear." "Beo"+"wulf." So you could be right about that. It's also been etymologized as beadu (battle) wolf.

But still, the name Bijan has not been connected to "bee" but rather is a version of "victor" and means "hero; victor; brave." Bijan (etymologized as "bee") does not make any sense as a hero's name...whereas something literally meaning "hero" does. Plus, as I said before, all other Indo-European languages from Latin to Indic languages have a version of this name that, ultimately deriving from PIE weyk--so why wouldn't Iranian?

I do not think that the name Bijan is connected to "bee" and I cannot find any etymologies online that make that connection.

As for Beowulf, I do not believe it is related to the story of Bijan in any way.

"Bijou" ("shower" in French), "bay", "badge", etc. all kind of sound like Old English "beo." Perhaps there is a connection there? Obviously no, but the point is, anything can be a connection if you look hard enough.

Wolves and bears were two mysterious, powerful, and frightening animals throughout the world. It wasn't just in Indo-European or Iranian cultures where people marveled at them.

this is what i found. my interpretation is it could mean "chosen, selected", or "one who wields a weapon"

BIJANmPersian, Literature
Modern form of Bizhan. In literature, Bijan is the name of a character in the 11th-century epic poem 'Shahnameh' written by the Persian poet Ferdowsi.

Bizhan
Later form of Vezhan, of which the meaning is uncertain. It may possibly be etymologically related to the New Persian verb بختن (bextan), which can mean "to sift" as well as "to sieve". The Middle Persian (i.e. older) equivalent of that verb is wēxtan meaning "to sift, to select, to choose, to separate" and is ultimately derived from Old Iranian waik-or waič- meaning "to separate". It should be noted that in Middle Persian, there is another verb wēxtan, but that one has a different meaning and slightly different etymology than the aforementioned verb whose meaning and origin I just explained. This second verb wēxtan means "to swing, to brandish, to throw" and is ultimately derived from Old Iranian waig-. Due to the fact that these verbs and their Old Iranian roots resemble each other very closely, both are an equal candidate for being the root of the given name Bizhan.

[Cyrus]

tyuiopman, there are also some other reasons that I believe Jiroft inscriptions are in an Indo-European language, I'm working on these things too:

[spruithean]

Thanks! I appreciate you clearling this up.

Do you think that Scythian was a "lifestyle" more than an ethnic group. Maybe like what "Kurd" was until fairly recently or kind of like "Sea People"?

I am curious what your model of PIE expansion is!

There was certainly a "classical" Scythian population known to the Greeks, and they certainly spoke an East Iranian language, however there is a larger complex of "Scytho-Siberian" culture that spans across the steppe with consistent animal art forms, nomadic lifestyle, similar weaponry and use of horses. The relationship between the European Scythians and the Eastern Saka isn't known for certain AFAICT and whether ALL "Scytho-Siberian" peoples spoke Eastern Iranian languages is unknown and given the history of the Steppes, it's likely that multilingualism was common across the Steppe as part of the way of life.

I lean toward the Steppe hypothesis for the model of PIE expansion.

I think it is possible that Bijan and Gorgin were actually one person, the proto-Germanic word for "bee" is *bijo: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...anic/bij%C7%AD and Iranian and Germanic words for "wolf" have the same origin, the name of Beowulf sounds like Bee and Wolf, so they became two different persons in the Iranian mythology.

Yet, these words for "bee" and "wolf" have cognates in other IE languages which trace back to a common PIE word, this is hardly convincing of anything to be honest.

As I said in another thread, I'm working on deciphering ancient Jiroft inscriptions of Kerman, Oldest Evidence of Written Language.



Just about those two short texts in linear Elamite script:





I see the words of Kerman and Gedrosia (name of Jiroft on the early the Arab-Sasanian coins was Gedroft), it seems very possible that both names have Indo-European origin, so the original inscription could be also in an Indo-European language.

Map of Gedrosian admixture:

What is your corpus that you are using to translate the Jiroft inscriptions? Are your findings corroborated by linguists?

Gedrosian is an admixture term and Eupedia's own entry from which you pulled this image states that it is a Yamnaya related admixture component and that is spread west with Indo-Europeans.

Beowulf has been etymologized by others as "bee wolf." It'd be the word for "bear." "Beo"+"wulf." So you could be right about that. It's also been etymologized as beadu (battle) wolf.

But still, the name Bijan has not been connected to "bee" but rather is a version of "victor" and means "hero; victor; brave." Bijan (etymologized as "bee") does not make any sense as a hero's name...whereas something literally meaning "hero" does. Plus, as I said before, all other Indo-European languages from Latin to Indic languages have a version of this name that, ultimately deriving from PIE weyk--so why wouldn't Iranian?

I do not think that the name Bijan is connected to "bee" and I cannot find any etymologies online that make that connection.

As for Beowulf, I do not believe it is related to the story of Bijan in any way.

"Bijou" ("shower" in French), "bay", "badge", etc. all kind of sound like Old English "beo." Perhaps there is a connection there? Obviously no, but the point is, anything can be a connection if you look hard enough.

Wolves and bears were two mysterious, powerful, and frightening animals throughout the world. It wasn't just in Indo-European or Iranian cultures where people marveled at them.

If I recall Beowulf is an Old English kenning, and considering the amount of kennings in Old English works, it may have been used for dramatic or poetic effect.

I've tried matching up the spread of IE languages with development patterns in autosomal DNA, and cannot find clear trails from specifically an Irano-Armenian origin point. In my opinion, it is not the most likely point of origin for the core language group.
Culture is something else though. And there is also no one origin point for Indo-Europeans - people speaking IE languages descended from lots of different populations, and many people would have simply adopted these languages as the lingua francas of their time over the course of their history.
My calculations suggest that the first branchings of IE speaking people most likely occurred in a population ancestral to both Southern Steppe Yamnayans and early Armenians, probably located North of the Caucasus.
Having said that, these proto-IE speakers would most likely have spread to Armenia/Iran first, and the Baltic next. The model suggests IE was probably not spoken by core Anatolians, nor by West/Central R1b Beaker people until some time later.

Most of the data as of late supports a Steppe route for the spread of the perceived "Indo-European" autosomal DNA, however a select camp still hold on to other PIE expansion models.

tyuiopman, there are also some other reasons that I believe Jiroft inscriptions are in an Indo-European language, I'm working on these things too:

What are your sources for these? How can we be sure that the Jiroft "n" is indeed an n? The same goes for the Jiroft "D". Is this corroborated by other scholars, preferably linguists?

[tyuiopman]

tyuiopman, there are also some other reasons that I believe Jiroft inscriptions are in an Indo-European language, I'm working on these things too:

I thought that the Jiroft script had not yet been deciphered and that some believed it was a forgery?

I'm not saying that they were not Indo-European...they could have been. But they might also have a) influenced Indo-Europeans or b) been influenced by them. Just playing Devil's advocate here.

[tyuiopman]

spruithean, that's what it seems. Beowulf=bee-wolf=bear. A big, powerful, frightening warrior.

[tyuiopman]

I started a thread about a couple of EMBA burial sites in Armenia that may have been from an Indo-European (proto-Armenian?) culture. It might be of interest. You can find the thread here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...830#post581830

[Cyrus]

I thought that the Jiroft script had not yet been deciphered and that some believed it was a forgery?
I'm not saying that they were not Indo-European...they could have been. But they might also have a) influenced Indo-Europeans or b) been influenced by them. Just playing Devil's advocate here.

The whole history of Iran is actually a forgery, no one lived in this land in the ancient times, these ancient inscriptions have been created recently for fooling others!
I think some geneticists also want to fool others, ancient Indo-Europeans never lived in Iran, just in 700 BC some Iranians migrated there, before this date, almost the whole land of Iran was empty.

[tyuiopman]

The whole history of Iran is actually a forgery, no one lived in this land in the ancient times, these ancient inscriptions have been created recently for fooling others!
I think some geneticists also want to fool others, ancient Indo-Europeans never lived in Iran, just in 700 BC some Iranians migrated there, before this date, almost the whole land of Iran was empty.

Chill out. I did not say any of that nor was I implying it. It's clear that people have been living there for a long time, some of whom may have been Indo-Europeans (whether Iranian-speaking or something else). All that I said was that apparently there was SOME question about the authenticity of these artifacts, which was raised by SOME researchers/historians. Additionally, to my understanding, the Jiroft inscriptions have not even been adequately deciphered, so all I was asking is how you are translating something that nobody alive knows how to properly read? These are legitimate questions and issues. The first Urartologists used Armenian and then Semitic to "read" Urartian texts and got some "possible" translations, even though we now know that Urartian was neither an Indo-European nor Semitic language.

That being said, you yourself were very eager to agree that Saka-tur/Skayordi was an Iranian, yet were appalled when I suggested that perhaps Bijan could have gleaned it's k>j from Indic influence. So it's perfectly acceptable for legendary (and quasi-historical) Armenian patriarchs to have been Iranian (which I actually do agree with--I think that Saka-tur having some sort of Scythian connection is compelling) but it's not acceptable for any aspects of Iranian history or culture to be borrowings or influence from others?

I'm not degrading Iranian history at all--Iranian speaking peoples have had a huge influence on much of Eurasia for 3000 years. Armenians and Indians (and many other groups) were heavily influenced by Iranian cultures (and readily admit this)...but intercultural relations go two ways.

And FYI, I think that some of the PPIEs (or Indo-Hittites or whatever you want to call them) were living in (at least northern) Iran near Urmia and along the Zagros mountains.

I will say though, I do not agree with your theories that Germanic speakers, etc. were in the Near East at the start of recorded history (i.e. the Gutians, etc). I think it's possible that some Germanic tribes may have arrived later on (actually, we know that there were Viking raiders along the south Caspian coastline). I also do not think that Bijan is related to Beowulf, I think it is a form of Victor. I also think that the Kassites were likely a Hurro-Urartian people (not Hurrians or Urartians but a separate culture) who had some sort of Indo-Aryan or Indic superstratum. I don't think that the Kassite language was Iranic. Otherwise, I don't really have much issue with your theories and I actually find some of them interesting.

[Pip]

Most of the data as of late supports a Steppe route for the spread of the perceived "Indo-European" autosomal DNA, however a select camp still hold on to other PIE expansion models.

It is not surprising, especially Armenian models, as we can see autosomal DNA from the Southern Steppe appearing in Armenian samples at a very early stage (prior to 4,000 BC), and we can also see surviving clades of Z2103 coalescing to Armenia. The distance between the Steppe and Armenia is not large at all, and it is quite possible that proto-IE speakers travelled between the two, particularly if they were nomadic pastoralists.

[Cyrus]

And FYI, I think that some of the PPIEs (or Indo-Hittites or whatever you want to call them) were living in (at least northern) Iran near Urmia and along the Zagros mountains.

It is really possible that the original land was in the north of Urmia, as I said in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...phabet-letters some original IE words actually exist in Armenian and Greek, for example we see Armenian vec and Hellenic weks for "six" but in Persian we see the same Akkadian word shesh, Germanic sehs, ... also for "seven" we see Armenian ewt and Hellenic epta, but like Akkadian sebe and Germanic sebun, Indo-Iranian, Italic, Tocharian, Albanian, Italic, Celtic and Balto-Slavic words begin with s too. In fact Indo-European language which was spoken in Zagros was certainly under influence of Semitic.

[tyuiopman]

It is really possible that the original land was in the north of Urmia, as I said in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...phabet-letters some original IE words actually exist in Armenian and Greek, for example we see Armenian vec and Hellenic weks for "six" but in Persian we see the same Akkadian word shesh, Germanic sehs, ... also for "seven" we see Armenian ewt and Hellenic epta, but like Akkadian sebe and Germanic sebun, Indo-Iranian, Italic, Tocharian, Albanian, Italic, Celtic and Balto-Slavic words begin with s too. In fact Indo-European language which was spoken in Zagros was certainly under influence of Semitic.

Yes. There is another user in other threads on this and other sites who argues that it was Shulaveri-Shomu Culture who brought Indo-European to the Steppes. Obviously what they called themselves is unknown, but I think that it's possible that they called themselves Arman or something similar (Armani maybe). This could explain why Anatolians (Arman/Armani/Armi), Armenians (Arman/Armen/Armeneak), Iranians (Arman), Germanics (Arminus/Armin/Armand/Herman/Alemanni), etc all use variations of this name and why versions of this name appear from Syria to Iran in early recorded history.

The Zagros/Urmia/South Caucasus location is supported by genetics, and it is also supported by the clear early contact of Indo-European languages with Semitic, Sumerian, Kartvelian, and Hurro-Urartian languages. I also think that there was pre-Hittite IE influence on Hattian (look at the names of their gods). In the case of the Sumerians, I think that they may have originally been neighbors of the Indo-Europeans (to their immediate west), and the Hurro-Urartians (to their immediate east). The Sumerian mythical homeland of Aratta (Ararat?) and the mountains of Masu (Masis?) are suggestive of this connection too. As I also said, I think Sumerian kur is a loan from an early IE language (perhaps a pre-satemized version of Armenian "sar").

According to some, Kartvelian was originally spoken in western or central Turkey. So basically, we have clear Indo-European interactions with the nascent versions of most Near Eastern languages, yet people focus on the Uralic connection. I think what likely happened is that, ,once the IE went north, they encountered Uralics and there was intercultural influence.

Can you tell me what the word for "snake" is in Old Persian and any pre-Islamic Iranian views on snakes?

[tyuiopman]

The distance between the Steppe and Armenia is not large at all, and it is quite possible that proto-IE speakers travelled between the two, particularly if they were nomadic pastoralists.

Really interesting idea. At its most southerly, the Pontic-Caspian Steppes goes through Daghestan/Chechnya and almost reaches Azerbaijan. So they could have been herding to their north or to their immediate (slightly north) east.

[Cyrus]

Yes. There is another user in other threads on this and other sites who argues that it was Shulaveri-Shomu Culture who brought Indo-European to the Steppes. Obviously what they called themselves is unknown, but I think that it's possible that they called themselves Arman or something similar (Armani maybe). This could explain why Anatolians (Arman/Armani/Armi), Armenians (Arman/Armen/Armeneak), Iranians (Arman), Germanics (Arminus/Armin/Armand/Herman/Alemanni), etc all use variations of this name and why versions of this name appear from Syria to Iran in early recorded history.

The Zagros/Urmia/South Caucasus location is supported by genetics, and it is also supported by the clear early contact of Indo-European languages with Semitic, Sumerian, Kartvelian, and Hurro-Urartian languages. I also think that there was pre-Hittite IE influence on Hattian (look at the names of their gods). In the case of the Sumerians, I think that they may have originally been neighbors of the Indo-Europeans (to their immediate west), and the Hurro-Urartians (to their immediate east). The Sumerian mythical homeland of Aratta (Ararat?) and the mountains of Masu (Masis?) are suggestive of this connection too. As I also said, I think Sumerian kur is a loan from an early IE language (perhaps a pre-satemized version of Armenian "sar").

According to some, Kartvelian was originally spoken in western or central Turkey. So basically, we have clear Indo-European interactions with the nascent versions of most Near Eastern languages, yet people focus on the Uralic connection. I think what likely happened is that, ,once the IE went north, they encountered Uralics and there was intercultural influence.

Can you tell me what the word for "snake" is in Old Persian and any pre-Islamic Iranian views on snakes?

As I said in the thread about the origin of Germanic people, the name of my son is Armin, this is actually a very Indo-European name that I have always loved.
The general Persian word for snake is mar but the general word from an IE origin is a�i, cognate with Armenian i�, we read many positive and negative things about snakes in Avesta and other Iranian sources.

[tyuiopman]

As I said in the thread about the origin of Germanic people, the name of my son is Armin, this is actually a very Indo-European name that I have always loved.
The general Persian word for snake is mar but the general word from an IE origin is a�i, cognate with Armenian i�, we read many positive and negative things about snakes in Avesta and other Iranian sources.

Yes, but the point is, it was an word/name that was BROUGHT to Europe by South Caucasians and Germanics diverged from the Steppe population, rather than coming directly from the South Caucasus into Europe (i.e. they are a Steppe derived population who did not speak a distinct language until after Yamnaya). Clearly it was an important name to the early Indo-Europeans, which is why I think that they might have called themselves Armani or something along those lines. It could mean "warrior (army) men," "sun men," "all men", or "righteous/wise men." Aryan might come from this root too.

Please read this article. You'll certainly find it fascinating.

https://www.academia.edu/33109045/In...-2_pp._129-146