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Thread: Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Really interesting idea. At its most southerly, the Pontic-Caspian Steppes goes through Daghestan/Chechnya and almost reaches Azerbaijan. So they could have been herding to their north or to their immediate (slightly north) east.
    Broadly-speaking, my calculations indicate that at the early (5th millennium BC) stage Steppic + Georgian DNA was moving South into Armenia, but only Georgian DNA was moving North into the Steppe. If there was a common factor, the data suggests it sprung from Georgia or to its North.

    It looks to me as if both Armenia and Iran have been repeatedly colonised from the North, so that today's Armenians and Iranians are essentially of Northern stock, rather than of the people who lived there in the Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Broadly-speaking, my calculations indicate that at the early (5th millennium BC) stage Steppic + Georgian DNA was moving South into Armenia, but only Georgian DNA was moving North into the Steppe. If there was a common factor, the data suggests it sprung from Georgia or to its North.

    It looks to me as if both Armenia and Iran have been repeatedly colonised from the North, so that today's Armenians and Iranians are essentially of Northern stock, rather than of the people who lived there in the Neolithic.
    How do modern Georgians compare to these prehistoric Georgians genetically?

    This still explains the connections between proto-Kartvelian, proto-Hurro-Urartian, and proto-Indo European well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Broadly-speaking, my calculations indicate that at the early (5th millennium BC) stage Steppic + Georgian DNA was moving South into Armenia, but only Georgian DNA was moving North into the Steppe. If there was a common factor, the data suggests it sprung from Georgia or to its North.

    It looks to me as if both Armenia and Iran have been repeatedly colonised from the North, so that today's Armenians and Iranians are essentially of Northern stock, rather than of the people who lived there in the Neolithic.
    Right now I believe this Yamnaya/Steppe theory of IE expansion yet the Yamnaya people were only R-Z2103 so how can we be so sure that Celts/Germanics too came from them I mean could Celts/Germanics immigrated from Asia minor to Balkans with Greeks/Illyrian/Latins too(Southern route) rather than from Pontic Steppe?

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    The fact is that other than Germanic people, it is very difficult to prove any other Indo-European speaking people lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course there could be some IE people but their language seem to be extinct, like a language which could be a direct ancestor of proto-Greek and Anatolian in the northwest of Iran and Armenia. Almost all loanwords in Sumerian and Akkadian languages are from proto-Germanic, but we can find many words from those languages in almost all other IE languages. I don't think that in 2,000 BC Indo-European languages were far from each other, Indo-Iranians lived in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Italo-Celtic people in the north or northeast of Iran, Balto-Slavic in the north of Caucasus, ... Of course these languages have become extinct too and just subbranches exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Right now I believe this Yamnaya/Steppe theory of IE expansion yet the Yamnaya people were only R-Z2103 so how can we be so sure that Celts/Germanics too came from them I mean could Celts/Germanics immigrated from Asia minor to Balkans with Greeks/Illyrian/Latins too(Southern route) rather than from Pontic Steppe?
    Yamnayans are a red herring as far as Bell Beaker people are concerned - Bell Beaker and R1b-L51 clearly look Balkanic.
    A possible route for IE that fits the autosomal evidence is Southern Steppe Yamnaya to Baltic Corded Ware to Battle Axe/European Bronze Age and Indo-Aryans. But this is speculative - there is no clear evidence.

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    I believe almost all ancient words which are considered as Wanderwort actually show that IE people lived near each other. For example look at this Sanskrit word:
    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/परशु
    From Proto-Indo-Aryan *paraśṣ, from Proto-Indo-Iranian *paraĉ. Cognate with Ancient Greek πέλεκυς (plekus, axe),[1][2] and hence apparently reconstructible back to Proto-Indo-European[1][2] as *peleḱs (axe). The word is often considered a Wanderwort,[1] and the similarity of Akkadian 𒁄 (pilaqqu, wooden handle; spindle, harp) (from Sumerian 𒁄 (balag, wooden handle; spindle, harp; possibly a split piece of wood or wooden wedge); compare Arabic فَلَقَ‎ (falaqa, to split apart)) has led some to suggest that the Proto-Indo-European word is a borrowing of the Akkadian word.[1][2]
    Compare also German Beil (axe); see *bilją (with which Beil's etymon was conflated).
    A proto-IE loanword from Akkadian which certainly didn't exit in PIE times means nothing, the fact is that like Akkadian hablu "cable" which is from proto-Germanic *hab- "to lift" + -lu (instrumental/agent suffix), Sumerian balag is from proto-Germanic *bia "to hew" + -lu, compare to Middle Persian bilag "small axe".

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    Or look at this Arabic word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/برج

    Borrowed from Classical Syriac ܒܘܪܓܐ‎ (burgāʾ), from Middle Persian (burg), or from Ancient Greek πύργος (prgos).
    About the Greek word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/πύργος#Ancient_Greek

    The word is first attested in Homer, Iliad 7.206. Believed to be a borrowed word, probably from Urartian [script needed] (burgana, palace, fortress); compare also Old Armenian բուրգն (burgn, pyramid). Others connect the word to Proto-Indo-European *bʰerǵʰ- (high), with cognates including Sanskrit बृहत् (bṛht, lofty, high, tall), Old Armenian բարձր (barjr, high) and Old English burg (English borough). Kretschmer suggested a borrowing from Proto-Germanic *burgz (fortified town, hill-fort) mediated through some Northern Balkans language (Ancient Macedonian?).
    The word has clearly a Germanic origin but we see loanwords in Iliad and Urartian inscriptions, so it dates back to at least 2nd millennium BC, was Germanic existed in the north of Europe in this period?! How an ancient Greek word could be from Urartian? What about Middle Persian burg? ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The fact is that other than Germanic people, it is very difficult to prove any other Indo-European speaking people lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course there could be some IE people but their language seem to be extinct, like a language which could be a direct ancestor of proto-Greek and Anatolian in the northwest of Iran and Armenia. Almost all loanwords in Sumerian and Akkadian languages are from proto-Germanic, but we can find many words from those languages in almost all other IE languages. I don't think that in 2,000 BC Indo-European languages were far from each other, Indo-Iranians lived in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Italo-Celtic people in the north or northeast of Iran, Balto-Slavic in the north of Caucasus, ... Of course these languages have become extinct too and just subbranches exist.
    Citations please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Citations please.
    We are talking about recent genetic evidences which prove the original land of Indo-Europeans was in modern Iran/Armenia, it is clear that previous sources which were mostly based on different theories can't be useful here. For example as you see Kretschmer suggests a borrowing from Proto-Germanic into ancient Greek through some Northern Balkans language but we know proto-Germanic didn't exist in the north of Europe in this period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The fact is that other than Germanic people, it is very difficult to prove any other Indo-European speaking people lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course there could be some IE people but their language seem to be extinct, like a language which could be a direct ancestor of proto-Greek and Anatolian in the northwest of Iran and Armenia. Almost all loanwords in Sumerian and Akkadian languages are from proto-Germanic, but we can find many words from those languages in almost all other IE languages. I don't think that in 2,000 BC Indo-European languages were far from each other, Indo-Iranians lived in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Italo-Celtic people in the north or northeast of Iran, Balto-Slavic in the north of Caucasus, ... Of course these languages have become extinct too and just subbranches exist.
    No. That includes Germanic as well. That's YOUR theory that nobody else agrees with that the Gutians were Germanics. We don't even know if they were Indo-European to begin with! You really need to stop pretending YOUR theories are fact. Again, I'm not attacking you--you have some interesting ideas, but the way you present things doesn't make anybody want to consider your ideas (hence the criticisms in other threads). If there was evidence (or even remote evidence) of Germanics in the Near East 2700 years ago, more people would talk about this. There isn't besides Gutian kind of sounding like Goths.

    The "Proto-Greek" language was Mycenaean. A pre-proto Greek language would be Greaco-Armenian or maybe Greaco-Armeno-Aryan. We know that there were Anatolians in the ME/eastern Mediterranean by 1700 BCE. There were likely Armenians as well (Trialeti-Vanadzor, Nerkin/Verin Naver). We have Arman (likely Anatolian or Proto-Anatolian) in northern Syria/southern Turkey (Damgaard et al.) circa 2300 BCE. There were likely Greek (Mycenaean-like) people in the Mediterranean and Turkey at this time (Achaeans/Ahhiyawans). Your argument is totally baseless.

    What you're essentially advocating is the Armenian hypothesis, which has been partially proven by geneticists like Reich. There is no reason to believe that Germanics and Celts were in the Near East, rather that these respective languages share a common root that came from a language originally spoken somewhere in Armenia/western Azerbaijan/northern Iran.

    This seems to be the most reasonable model according to the present scientific and linguistic data: Armenian-like people living in South Caucasus (maybe Shulaveri-Shomu, which was mostly located in Armenia and Azerbaijan, also southern Georgia and northern Iran) spoke PPIE. Some moved west and became Anatolians. Others moved north. Some may have stayed in Armenia/Georgia. The ones in the north mixed with Steppe pastoralists and branched out every direction. This gave rise to all other IE languages. This is not MY theory. This is the most current mainstream theory, which is based on genetic, linguistic, and archaeological information.

    There were likely Indo-Europeans in Armenia, Georgia, and Central Turkey by 2000 BCE (likely more like 2300--I'm thinking specifically about Alaca Hoyuk and Nerkin/Verin Navers). These people were either partially Steppe derived or had close contact with the Steppe peoples. This is not MY theory. This is based on the archaeological record.

    I think that it's likely that there was another, probably earlier group (Euphratic) who lived in SE Turkey/northern Zagros region who were in contact with the Sumerians. They may have been the direct descendent of the Shulaveri-Shomu culture. They may have given rise to the Gutians. They may have given rise to the Anatolians. They may have given rise to Armenians (at least partially--some of the likely IE>Sumerian loanwords are very similar to Armenian words). They may have been in contact with the Hattians. But again, this is just a THEORY. This is not a fact. It's entirely speculation on MY part, based largely on Whittaker's work.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 18-07-19 at 20:20. Reason: Changed "Haitians" to "Hattians"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Or look at this Arabic word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/برج



    About the Greek word: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/πύργος#Ancient_Greek



    The word has clearly a Germanic origin but we see loanwords in Iliad and Urartian inscriptions, so it dates back to at least 2nd millennium BC, was Germanic existed in the north of Europe in this period?! How an ancient Greek word could be from Urartian? What about Middle Persian burg? ...
    It's not "clearly of Germanic origin." You're missing the whole point of the linguistic relationships and linguistic families/classifications in general. It was likely a Hurro-Urartian or Armenian word that was borrowed into Greek and Semitic. From Greek, it entered Latin, and subsequently other IE languages. Or it was a PIE word that existed in Armenian/Greek/Anatolian languages and from them it was loaned into Semitic languages. I don't think anybody claims that it's of Germanic origin, it just clearly exists in modern Germanic languages...just like many Greco-Latin, etc. words exist in modern Germanic languages.

    Greeks existed at the same time as Urartu. Homer was a contemporary of Urartu. Many Greeks were living in what is now Turkey. It's likely that they were in contact with one another.

    Persian burg could either be a native Iranian word, a loanword from Armenian or Greek, or a loanword from Akkadian/Aramaic/Arabic.

    The etymology of "burg" as an IE>Urartian loanword is discussed here on page 134:

    https://www.academia.edu/2939663/The...tics_of_Urartu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We are talking about recent genetic evidences which prove the original land of Indo-Europeans was in modern Iran/Armenia, it is clear that previous sources which were mostly based on different theories can't be useful here. For example as you see Kretschmer suggests a borrowing from Proto-Germanic into ancient Greek through some Northern Balkans language but we know proto-Germanic didn't exist in the north of Europe in this period.
    Yes. And those Armenian-like PPIE mostly went north, mixed in with Eastern Europeans, and then subsequently branched further out into Eurasia.

    Proto-German could have existed by 500 BCE. And there likely would have been Pre-Proto-Germanic tribes (likely descending from something like Beaker) that likely wold have existed before that. It's very possible that Proto-Germanic peoples interacted with the Greeks. Remember, Alexander lived in the 4th century BCE.

    It's certainly not any less reasonable that there were Proto-Germanics in Europe during Classical Greece than it is that there were Proto-Germanics in the Near East before Classical Greece (something we have literally zero evidence for).

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Right now I believe this Yamnaya/Steppe theory of IE expansion yet the Yamnaya people were only R-Z2103 so how can we be so sure that Celts/Germanics too came from them I mean could Celts/Germanics immigrated from Asia minor to Balkans with Greeks/Illyrian/Latins too(Southern route) rather than from Pontic Steppe?
    Or there wasn't major population displacement or genocide of the native European populations, but rather linguistic (and cultural) influence upon native European populations. Something we've seen time and again throughout history. A good example is modern Turkey, which is mostly comprised of native peoples who have adopted the Turkish language.

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    There are theories that Artemis was originally Hurro-Urartian (although the Arte- could also be IE/Armenian). There are also theories that Theseus comes from Teshub (Teisheba in Urartian). So no, it actually isn't that far-fetched that the Greeks were influenced by the Urartians, or at least in contact with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    No. That includes Germanic as well. That's YOUR theory that nobody else agrees with that the Gutians were Germanics. We don't even know if they were Indo-European to begin with! You really need to stop pretending YOUR theories are fact. Again, I'm not attacking you--you have some interesting ideas, but the way you present things doesn't make anybody want to consider your ideas (hence the criticisms in other threads). If there was evidence (or even remote evidence) of Germanics in the Near East 2700 years ago, more people would talk about this. There isn't besides Gutian kind of sounding like Goths.

    The "Proto-Greek" language was Mycenaean. A pre-proto Greek language would be Greaco-Armenian or maybe Greaco-Armeno-Aryan. We know that there were Anatolians in the ME/eastern Mediterranean by 1700 BCE. There were likely Armenians as well (Trialeti-Vanadzor, Nerkin/Verin Naver). We have Arman (likely Anatolian or Proto-Anatolian) in northern Syria/southern Turkey (Damgaard et al.) circa 2300 BCE. There were likely Greek (Mycenaean-like) people in the Mediterranean and Turkey at this time (Achaeans/Ahhiyawans). Your argument is totally baseless.

    What you're essentially advocating is the Armenian hypothesis, which has been partially proven by geneticists like Reich. There is no reason to believe that Germanics and Celts were in the Near East, rather that these respective languages share a common root that came from a language originally spoken somewhere in Armenia/western Azerbaijan/northern Iran.

    This seems to be the most reasonable model according to the present scientific and linguistic data: Armenian-like people living in South Caucasus (maybe Shulaveri-Shomu, which was mostly located in Armenia and Azerbaijan, also southern Georgia and northern Iran) spoke PPIE. Some moved west and became Anatolians. Others moved north. Some may have stayed in Armenia/Georgia. The ones in the north mixed with Steppe pastoralists and branched out every direction. This gave rise to all other IE languages. This is not MY theory. This is the most current mainstream theory, which is based on genetic, linguistic, and archaeological information.

    There were likely Indo-Europeans in Armenia, Georgia, and Central Turkey by 2000 BCE (likely more like 2300--I'm thinking specifically about Alaca Hoyuk and Nerkin/Verin Navers). These people were either partially Steppe derived or had close contact with the Steppe peoples. This is not MY theory. This is based on the archaeological record.

    I think that it's likely that there was another, probably earlier group (Euphratic) who lived in SE Turkey/northern Zagros region who were in contact with the Sumerians. They may have been the direct descendent of the Shulaveri-Shomu culture. They may have given rise to the Gutians. They may have given rise to the Anatolians. They may have given rise to Armenians (at least partially--some of the likely IE>Sumerian loanwords are very similar to Armenian words). They may have been in contact with the Hattians. But again, this is just a THEORY. This is not a fact. It's entirely speculation on MY part, based largely on Whittaker's work.
    I'm really interested to find linguistic evidences which show other than proto-Germanic, another Indo-European people also lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course some similar names, such as Guti and Goth, Armi and Armenian, Hatti and Hittite, Parhasi and Parsi/Persian, ... can't prove anything. I have researched about it for several years, there are hundreds Germanic words in Old Akkadian, Sumerian, Elamite, ... but we can't find almost any words from other IE languages in these languages, if you know, please mention some of them.
    It really doesn't matter for me that those who have never researched about these things agree with me or not, there are many people in Iran who believe Iranian or Indo-Iranian speaking people lived in Iran in 2,000 BC or even earlier but when I ask them to show their evidences, they just mention the names of Parhasi and Madai in the Sumerian sources!! In fact they have nothing to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I'm really interested to find linguistic evidences which show other than proto-Germanic, another Indo-European people also lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course some similar names, such as Guti and Goth, Armi and Armenian, Hatti and Hittite, Parhasi and Parsi/Persian, ... can't prove anything. I have researched about it for several years, there are hundreds Germanic words in Old Akkadian, Sumerian, Elamite, ... but we can't find almost any words from other IE languages in these languages, if you know, please mention some of them.
    Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You want potential Indo-European names/words/places in the Middle East from before 1700 BCE? Arman is likely Indo-European. Arra-ti and other Armani/Elbalite names mentioned by Damgaard. Tarhu and other Hattian names like Arinna (I connected Arinna and other Hattian names to IE--they might not be, but others have connected Tarhu to an IE origin, so it seems possible that there were more loans). I've seen Mari being connected to IEs. The Sumerian words mentioned by Whittaker and Sahala.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It really doesn't matter for me that those who have never researched about these things agree with me or not, there are many people in Iran who believe Iranian or Indo-Iranian speaking people lived in Iran in 2,000 BC or even earlier but when I ask them to show their evidences, they just mention the names of Parhasi and Madai in the Sumerian sources!! In fact they have nothing to say.
    Isn't that what you're doing with Germanic=Gutian though?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Cyrus, you keep presenting your theories as fact when there is no evidence stating they are, as tyuiopman said it makes people less inclined to pay any attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    It's not "clearly of Germanic origin." You're missing the whole point of the linguistic relationships and linguistic families/classifications in general. It was likely a Hurro-Urartian or Armenian word that was borrowed into Greek and Semitic. From Greek, it entered Latin, and subsequently other IE languages. Or it was a PIE word that existed in Armenian/Greek/Anatolian languages and from them it was loaned into Semitic languages. I don't think anybody claims that it's of Germanic origin, it just clearly exists in modern Germanic languages...just like many Greco-Latin, etc. words exist in modern Germanic languages.
    Greeks existed at the same time as Urartu. Homer was a contemporary of Urartu. Many Greeks were living in what is now Turkey. It's likely that they were in contact with one another.
    Persian burg could either be a native Iranian word, a loanword from Armenian or Greek, or a loanword from Akkadian/Aramaic/Arabic.
    The etymology of "burg" as an IE>Urartian loanword is discussed here on page 134:
    https://www.academia.edu/2939663/The...tics_of_Urartu
    Please explain as an IE word how it could be a non-Germanic word? As you read from my link, linguists, like Kretschmer, believe it is a Germanic word. In fact those who know some basic things about linguistic know that proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ could be changed to burg just in Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    How do modern Georgians compare to these prehistoric Georgians genetically?
    Sorry, it takes a while to run the data.
    Autosomally, modern Georgians come out as a remarkably similar mixture (of preceding local populations) to Iron Age Iran. Whatever affected Iran genetically after 1,000 BC looks to have had little impact in Georgia. This perhaps suggests that any more recent incursors into Iran did not come via Georgia?

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    Cyrus, maybe this doesn't entirely answer your question, but I think some of these cultures were Indo-European and some were maybe Hurro-Urartian and other things (and perhaps some were mixed?). The reason I'm sharing this with you is because some of these regions are very close to Iran geographically:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=e1...ulture&f=false

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    Cyrus, could you name some of your publications/name if possible, I want to study them I love these topics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Sorry, it takes a while to run the data.
    Autosomally, modern Georgians come out as a remarkably similar mixture (of preceding local populations) to Iron Age Iran. Whatever affected Iran genetically after 1,000 BC looks to have had little impact in Georgia. This perhaps suggests that any more recent incursors into Iran did not come via Georgia?
    Which could support the Shintashta route of Indo-Iranian origins.

    So what it sounds like is that there was a block of genetically similar peoples from Iran up to the North Caucasus, correct? Am I understanding this correctly?

    As for Steppic+Georgian in 5th millennium BCE Armenian, that supports your previous comment about people moving back and forth from the Caucasus region to the Steppes? Do you think that this is when IE entered the South Caucasus or do you think that that happened afterwards? Perhaps the initial Centum Armenians? How do Early and Middle Bronze Age Armenians look to you (sorry, you may have clarified this before in a previous post)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, these are from an analysis of large modern databases. Based on SNP diversity, yfull estimates a TMRCA of 3,500 BC for Armenian-coalescing clades of R1b and 2,200 BC for South Caspian-coalescing clades of R1a. My estimates based on STR diversity are both earlier - 4,500 BC for Armenian R1b and 2,400 BC for South Caspian R1a. Armenian R1b is fairly stable, behaving like other Near/Middle Eastern lineages. South Caspian R1a is expansive and nomadic, with volatile development patterns - I don't see them in general as part of the same movement. Both might have spoken IE languages - R1b an earlier centum version and R1a a later satemised version, both affecting the final language product.


    The original Steppe Armenians/Proto-Armenians could have 'formed' anywhere over a fairly wide area - my guess is somewhere between North East Anatolia and Azov, but there's not enough data to be precise. Depending on where, they might have had fairly limited EHG before R1a arrived.

    Regarding ancient language-speaking, the only thing I'm tentatively confident about is that early R1b-DF27 most likely brought a Basque-ancestral language to Spain, rather than a IE one, so I really have no firm idea where IE came from.
    Sorry, I just found this old post, Pip.

    That 2400 BCE date is interesting because that corresponds very closely with the traditional date for the founding of the Armenian nation by the mythical patriach, Hayk, in 2492 BCE.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You want potential Indo-European names/words/places in the Middle East from before 1700 BCE? Arman is likely Indo-European. Arra-ti and other Armani/Elbalite names mentioned by Damgaard. Tarhu and other Hattian names like Arinna (I connected Arinna and other Hattian names to IE--they might not be, but others have connected Tarhu to an IE origin, so it seems possible that there were more loans). I've seen Mari being connected to IEs. The Sumerian words mentioned by Whittaker and Sahala.
    As you know I myself believe Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans, so it is certainly possible that many names/places in this region have IE origin but I'm talking the descendants of these IE people in this region, for example if you believe Armenian-speaking people lived there, you should mention some Armenian words in other languages, like Old Akkadian or Sumerian. I have asked the same thing from those who claim Iran is the original land of Iranian-speaking people or Turkey is the original land of Turkic people. Sumerian or Akkadian words in Persian or Turkish can't prove this thing, they just came to this land and adopted these words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you know I myself believe Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans, so it is certainly possible that many names/places in this region have IE origin but I'm talking the descendants of these IE people in this region, for example if you believe Armenian-speaking people lived there, you should mention some Armenian words in other languages, like Old Akkadian or Sumerian. I have asked the same thing from those who claim Iran is the original land of Iranian-speaking people or Turkey is the original land of Turkic people. Sumerian or Akkadian words in Persian or Turkish can't prove this thing, they just came to this land and adopted these words.
    I don't necessarily believe that they were Armenian-speaking, as we know it today. But rather PPIE. I think that Armenian (as we know it) might have some elements of the PPIE language which was spoken in the region (i.e. Armenian is either conservative in some way or came in contact with a conservative IE language that was spoken in the Armenia region).

    But okay--I've already said that Sumerian "kur" (mountain; foreign land) could come from a pre-satemized version of "sar" (the Armenian word for mountain). Other ones--early Sumerian "gi-in"/ge-en" (female), Armenian "geen" (woman). Sumerian "gu-ur(u)" (crow), Armenian "agrrav" (crow). Sumerian "gu(r)" (to eat), Armenian "ger" (eat [imperative]). Sumerian "igi" (eye), Armenian "akn>achk" (eye). Sumerian "luh" (to wash), Armenian "luvanel" (to wash). Sumerian "si-si" (horse), Armenian "dzi" (horse). Sumerian "uru" (to cultivate), Armenian "arawr>aravr" (to cultivate). Sumerian "agar" (field), Armenian "agarak" (farm).

    Arra-ti, which is one of the names etymologized as Indo-European by Damgaard, dating to ~2300 BCE. Arra-ti would mean something like "of the sun god". I actually do not believe that Ararat is a Semitic word that gave rise to Urartu (the Akkadian version of the name) and Ayrarat (the Armenian version of the name), but rather that the name was Ayrarat first...which literally means "people of the sun god, Ar/Ara". Urartu is another version with a similar meaning--Ar-astu. So it's not Semitic>Hurro-Urartian>Armenian but rather Armenian>Hurro-Urartian>Semitic. Aratta of the Sumerians would be the same as Ararat.

    In one of those Petrosyan articles I shared with you, he etymologizes the Hurro-Urartian Uelikummi (serpent/dragon) as coming from an PIE root (wel--"to see/know" and also "to coil"). Petrosyan suggests that PIE "wel" became proto-Armenian "uel" (which was borrowed into Hurro-Urartian) which became "gel" (which we see in Georgian) and modern Armenian "gegh." The Urartians or Assyrians mentioned a people called Uelikulki on the shores of Lake Sevan. That region is now called "Gegharkunik" with the "Gegham" Mountains nearby. Petrosyan suggests that there was a tribe in this region called Uelik/Welik (Welik) which would translate to "the Wel people".

    I suggest that you read some of the articles that I've shared with you, for example, the one I shared with you earlier today regarding Armenian loans into Hurro-Urartian.

    There are probably others. There are a lot from the Urartian-era. I could find more, specifically ones related to gods, from earlier, if you want...like Hattian "Arinna" (name of the holy city of the sun goddess). Ar/Ara are sun-related/sun god words in Armenian.

    All of the words I mention here have accepted PIE roots, which makes me think that they were loans from IE>Hattian/Hurro-Urartian/Sumerian/Semitic and not vice versa. Also, as you can see, in the case of languages like Akkadian, sometimes the Armenian word is closer to Sumerian than it is to the Akkadian version (i.e. Sum. agar, Arm. agarak, Akk. ugaaru; Sum. si-si, Arm. dzi, Akk. sisium--this word may have arrived via Hurrian "issi" but the root is still considered to be IE).

    I also wonder if uru and arawr (both meaning "cultivate") are related to the sun somehow due to the inclusion of "ara". Sunlight=plants growing.

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