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Thread: Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    So what it sounds like is that there was a block of genetically similar peoples from Iran up to the North Caucasus, correct? Am I understanding this correctly?
    That's what the results of my data analysis indicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    As for Steppic+Georgian in 5th millennium BCE Armenian, that supports your previous comment about people moving back and forth from the Caucasus region to the Steppes? Do you think that this is when IE entered the South Caucasus or do you think that that happened afterwards? Perhaps the initial Centum Armenians?
    I don't know, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    How do Early and Middle Bronze Age Armenians look to you?
    Early - mixed local. Middle - affected by admixture from several different Northern and North Western populations, most strikingly Eastern Baltic (my guess is migrations down the Volga).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    That's what the results of my data analysis indicate.


    I don't know, I'm afraid.


    Early - mixed local. Middle - affected by admixture from several different Northern and North Western populations, most strikingly Eastern Baltic (my guess is migrations down the Volga).
    The eastern Baltic/Volga would make sense. Perhaps there was once a Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian-Graeco-Armenian (and maybe Paleo-Balkan) clade. The Graeco-Armenian-Paleo Balkans left at an early date and began heading south. Paleo-Balkans split off next.

    The Graeco-Armenians would arrive in the region of Georgia/modern Turkey by 4th-mid-3rd millennium BCE. Greeks move west through Asia Minor. Armenians remain and form Trialeti-Vanadzor/Sevan-Uzerlik/Kizilvank cultures. Perhaps they encounter a previous IE population sometime here or perhaps as part of the Nairi Confederation. This previous IE population could be the Arman (the newcomers being the Hatiyo/Hayo).

    The main issue is explaining Greek as as Centum language. Also, explaining what happened to the Steppe Armenians. Were they just a small population to begin with and their genes just became super diluted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Please explain as an IE word how it could be a non-Germanic word? As you read from my link, linguists, like Kretschmer, believe it is a Germanic word. In fact those who know some basic things about linguistic know that proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ could be changed to burg just in Germanic.
    Because it was recorded in Near Eastern cultures that existed prior to when the proto-Germanics (who are a European group and not Near Eastern) are believed to have been around? Why don't you read the source I provided for you (I even specified the page that you should read)? Here's the etymology from Wiktionary:


    Belongs to the same family of words as
    Classical Syriacܒܘܪܓܐ(būrgā), Arabicبُرْج(burj), Urartian[script needed](burgana, fortress), Ancient Greekπύργος(púrgos), Latinburgus, Proto-Germanic*burgz.[1][2][3][4][5] The immediate source for the Armenian is uncertain. According to Martirosyan “we may be dealing with a ‘Wanderwort’ ultimately of IE origin; the Armenian, Greek, and Near Eastern forms may reflect an IE centum form (perhaps back loans from indigenous Mediterranean and/or European languages)”.[6]
    Here's the URL. Note the names of the linguists--only half of them are Armenian: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian

    What you seem to fail to understand is that these are PIE words. Forms exist in many IE (and other) languages, not just German.

    It's like you have this weird confirmation bias. You have convinced yourself that PIE=Germanic so completely that you don't realize that everybody else recognizes PIE as being a parent of, and not the same as, Germanic.

    Let's look at the word "star." It exists in German as "stern" so it must be Germanic! Wait, it also exists in Greek as asteri and Armenian as astghik and Spanish as estrella and Latin as stella and Old Persian as stera and might be related to Semitic Ishtar and Astarte (actually, another reason I think there were early IE encounters with Semitic)...they must all be Germanic! Or maybe they just all share the same root...*h₂stḗr?


    EDIT:

    Here's another -burg source from Wiktionary:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...ean/bʰerǵʰ-

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    By the way, you keep talking about your sources, but you haven't shared them, Cyrus. Would you mind sharing them? I promise I'll actually read your sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    The eastern Baltic/Volga would make sense. Perhaps there was once a Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian-Graeco-Armenian (and maybe Paleo-Balkan) clade. The Graeco-Armenian-Paleo Balkans left at an early date and began heading south. Paleo-Balkans split off next.

    The Graeco-Armenians would arrive in the region of Georgia/modern Turkey by 4th-mid-3rd millennium BCE. Greeks move west through Asia Minor. Armenians remain and form Trialeti-Vanadzor/Sevan-Uzerlik/Kizilvank cultures. Perhaps they encounter a previous IE population sometime here or perhaps as part of the Nairi Confederation. This previous IE population could be the Arman (the newcomers being the Hatiyo/Hayo).

    The main issue is explaining Greek as as Centum language. Also, explaining what happened to the Steppe Armenians. Were they just a small population to begin with and their genes just became super diluted?
    The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

    I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    I don't necessarily believe that they were Armenian-speaking, as we know it today. But rather PPIE. I think that Armenian (as we know it) might have some elements of the PPIE language which was spoken in the region (i.e. Armenian is either conservative in some way or came in contact with a conservative IE language that was spoken in the Armenia region).
    But okay--I've already said that Sumerian "kur" (mountain; foreign land) could come from a pre-satemized version of "sar" (the Armenian word for mountain). Other ones--early Sumerian "gi-in"/ge-en" (female), Armenian "geen" (woman). Sumerian "gu-ur(u)" (crow), Armenian "agrrav" (crow). Sumerian "gu(r)" (to eat), Armenian "ger" (eat [imperative]). Sumerian "igi" (eye), Armenian "akn>achk" (eye). Sumerian "luh" (to wash), Armenian "luvanel" (to wash). Sumerian "si-si" (horse), Armenian "dzi" (horse). Sumerian "uru" (to cultivate), Armenian "arawr>aravr" (to cultivate). Sumerian "agar" (field), Armenian "agarak" (farm).
    Arra-ti, which is one of the names etymologized as Indo-European by Damgaard, dating to ~2300 BCE. Arra-ti would mean something like "of the sun god". I actually do not believe that Ararat is a Semitic word that gave rise to Urartu (the Akkadian version of the name) and Ayrarat (the Armenian version of the name), but rather that the name was Ayrarat first...which literally means "people of the sun god, Ar/Ara". Urartu is another version with a similar meaning--Ar-astu. So it's not Semitic>Hurro-Urartian>Armenian but rather Armenian>Hurro-Urartian>Semitic. Aratta of the Sumerians would be the same as Ararat.
    In one of those Petrosyan articles I shared with you, he etymologizes the Hurro-Urartian Uelikummi (serpent/dragon) as coming from an PIE root (wel--"to see/know" and also "to coil"). Petrosyan suggests that PIE "wel" became proto-Armenian "uel" (which was borrowed into Hurro-Urartian) which became "gel" (which we see in Georgian) and modern Armenian "gegh." The Urartians or Assyrians mentioned a people called Uelikulki on the shores of Lake Sevan. That region is now called "Gegharkunik" with the "Gegham" Mountains nearby. Petrosyan suggests that there was a tribe in this region called Uelik/Welik (Welik) which would translate to "the Wel people".
    I suggest that you read some of the articles that I've shared with you, for example, the one I shared with you earlier today regarding Armenian loans into Hurro-Urartian.
    There are probably others. There are a lot from the Urartian-era. I could find more, specifically ones related to gods, from earlier, if you want...like Hattian "Arinna" (name of the holy city of the sun goddess). Ar/Ara are sun-related/sun god words in Armenian.
    All of the words I mention here have accepted PIE roots, which makes me think that they were loans from IE>Hattian/Hurro-Urartian/Sumerian/Semitic and not vice versa. Also, as you can see, in the case of languages like Akkadian, sometimes the Armenian word is closer to Sumerian than it is to the Akkadian version (i.e. Sum. agar, Arm. agarak, Akk. ugaaru; Sum. si-si, Arm. dzi, Akk. sisium--this word may have arrived via Hurrian "issi" but the root is still considered to be IE).
    I also wonder if uru and arawr (both meaning "cultivate") are related to the sun somehow due to the inclusion of "ara". Sunlight=plants growing.
    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    By the way, you keep talking about your sources, but you haven't shared them, Cyrus. Would you mind sharing them? I promise I'll actually read your sources.
    This is my theory about the history of my country and I don't know any European research about Guti, Suedi, Almani, Germani, Asgardi, Subari, Semnoni, Dani, ... people who lived in the west of Iran, if you know I am also interested to read.
    But about linguistics I know some good researches, for example read Germania Semitica by German linguist Theo Vennemann.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Because it was recorded in Near Eastern cultures that existed prior to when the proto-Germanics (who are a European group and not Near Eastern) are believed to have been around? Why don't you read the source I provided for you (I even specified the page that you should read)? Here's the etymology from Wiktionary:



    Here's the URL. Note the names of the linguists--only half of them are Armenian: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian

    What you seem to fail to understand is that these are PIE words. Forms exist in many IE (and other) languages, not just German.

    It's like you have this weird confirmation bias. You have convinced yourself that PIE=Germanic so completely that you don't realize that everybody else recognizes PIE as being a parent of, and not the same as, Germanic.

    Let's look at the word "star." It exists in German as "stern" so it must be Germanic! Wait, it also exists in Greek as asteri and Armenian as astghik and Spanish as estrella and Latin as stella and Old Persian as stera and might be related to Semitic Ishtar and Astarte (actually, another reason I think there were early IE encounters with Semitic)...they must all be Germanic! Or maybe they just all share the same root...*h₂stḗr?


    EDIT:

    Here's another -burg source from Wiktionary:
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...ean/bʰerǵʰ-
    The IE language which was spoken in the west of Iran was X which according to your link, proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ is changed to burg, not Armenian barjr or Avestan bərəzəm, Semitic and Urartian words are from burg in X language, not Armenian or Iranian words. I believe just X language was spoken in the west of Iran.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Vennemann's theory is not taken seriously by relevant linguists.
    As you said in a previous post, this is your theory. This does not make it fact.
    Last edited by spruithean; 19-07-19 at 20:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Cyrus, could you name some of your publications/name if possible, I want to study them I love these topics.
    It has not been published yet, I am still researching, in fact I need more genetic evidences for my theory, there are still some important things that I have no answer for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

    I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

    I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.
    This all makes sense. The Steppe Armenian>Mycenaean could explain some of the similarities between Greek and Armenian...either they came from the same group originally (i.e. Steppe Armenians were Graeco-Armenians) and/or a divergent dialect of Steppe Armenian>Greek and introduced that language to a Minoan population (I guess these theories are kind of the same). These were Centum languages. It also explains the similar grave goods and apparent trade networks between Mycenaeans and MBA Armenians.

    The LBA R1a-Z94 could be explained by the Mitanni or Kassites, if they had an Indo-Iranian or Indic superstratum. This language was Satem, as you suggested.

    I think that the Steppe Armenians in the LMBA likely entered the South Caucasus sometime between 2500-2300 BCE, perhaps originally they came from Catacomb Culture, and established themselves in northern Armenian and southern Georgia first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The IE language which was spoken in the west of Iran was X which according to your link, proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ is changed to burg, not Armenian barjr or Avestan bərəzəm, Semitic and Urartian words are from burg in X language, not Armenian or Iranian words. I believe just X language was spoken in the west of Iran.
    According to the link I copied and pasted here yesterday, the Old Armenian word was burgn. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian. Pronounced with a hard G, not a soft G (J) sound.

    According to Ivanov/Gamkrelidze and Diakonoff (as cited in the Petrosyan article I linked to you yesterday that you seem to have ignored), the Old Armenian word was burgn. The Urartian word was burgana. The Greek word was purgos. The Syriac word was burgaa. None of these are that dissimilar from *bʰerǵʰ or bhrgh. Actually, the Greek is the most dissimilar to the modern German, which is ironic because Greek and German are a) both centum and b) Greek is spoken the closest geographically to German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    This is my theory about the history of my country and I don't know any European research about Guti, Suedi, Almani, Germani, Asgardi, Subari, Semnoni, Dani, ... people who lived in the west of Iran, if you know I am also interested to read.
    But about linguistics I know some good researches, for example read Germania Semitica by German linguist Theo Vennemann.
    Subari as in Shupria/Subartu? That's hardly western Iran. By Asgardi do you mean Asgari? By Almani do you mean Armani? By Germani do you mean Kurman? It seems that a) you're rendering words in ways that make them look Germanic (i.e. Armani as Almani), secondly I fail to see how many of these other words compare to German to begin with.

    Again, just because there might be similar sounds or similar words doesn't make them German.

    So really what you're doing is you're not fitting your theory around the evidence but fitting your evidence around your theory. That's no way to make an argument if you want anybody to take you seriously.

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    I can compare any two random languages and find similarities. I could say Eurasia was settled first by Polynesians (not picking on them, but this just seems super unlikely, which is why I chose them).

    Teuila>Teuton.

    Samoa>Shem.

    Tausa'afia>Taurus. It was probably originally Taursa'afia but they dropped the R and I won't address that.

    Sefia>Suber. F can be B. B=P. Suber=Shupria. Sefria=Super. Shupria. Actually, Sumerian probably comes from this too.

    Talia>Italia, obviously.

    La'ei>Luri. I was probably originally Larei.

    Etc. etc. etc.

    Go through this link. I'm sure you'll see these, and more, possible connections.

    https://www.momjunction.com/articles...00400744/#gref

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    According to the link I copied and pasted here yesterday, the Old Armenian word was burgn. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian. Pronounced with a hard G, not a soft G (J) sound.

    According to Ivanov/Gamkrelidze and Diakonoff (as cited in the Petrosyan article I linked to you yesterday that you seem to have ignored), the Old Armenian word was burgn. The Urartian word was burgana. The Greek word was purgos. The Syriac word was burgaa. None of these are that dissimilar from *bʰerǵʰ or bhrgh. Actually, the Greek is the most dissimilar to the modern German, which is ironic because Greek and German are a) both centum and b) Greek is spoken the geographically closest to German.
    Ok if you believe proto-IE *ǵʰ is changed to /g/, not /j/ (dz) in Armenian, then the same Armenian language was spoken in the west of Iran from the 3rd millennium BC, but I think there are some loanwords in Armenian and burgn is one of them. Indo-European *ǵʰ sounds like /zh/ (like in visual), not /g/, we can find similar sounds just in Satem languages, like Armenian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Ok if you believe proto-IE *ǵʰ is changed to /g/, not /j/ (dz) in Armenian, then the same Armenian language was spoken in the west of Iran from the 3rd millennium BC, but I think there are some loanwords in Armenian and burgn is one of them. Indo-European *ǵʰ sounds like /zh/ (like in visual), not /g/, we can find similar sounds just in Satem languages, like Armenian.
    It's what I believe based on the research of the respected linguists that I provided you. Burgn is the phonetic transliteration of Armenian բուրգն.

    But your argument is that "burg" (i.e. the Germanic word) is the most conservative version of the word. But the Germanic "burg" is pronounced with a hard G, which is the same as in Old Armenian and apparently Urartian, etc. If Germanic=PIE, the German word should be "burj" or "burzh".

    I don't think anybody is suggesting that the root of burgn/burg, etc. is a 100% Armenian, but rather is came from a (likely centum, according to my sources) IE language. Maybe Graeco-Armenian. Maybe something else. Regardless, I don't see how this fits with your Germanic theory.

    It seems likely to me that Armenian was spoken in the Urmia area by at least 1500 BCE, as pottery was found there that is identical to likely IE pottery dated to around the same time from Armenia.

    As Pip and I have been discussing, it seems possible that Armenians are the product of 2-3 waves of likely Indo-European populations. The first one would be Eneolithic/EBA--the PPIE (I'm calling these people the Armani--they would likely have given rise or been closely related to the Hittites, etc.). These people were likely R1b. The second wave would be the "Steppe Armenians" (possibly from Catacomb) who arrived sometime between 2500-2300 BCE. These would be the Hatiyo/Haya/Hayo. This date corresponds with a) the traditional founding of the Armenian nation according to Moses of Korene (2492 BCE) b) the Nature article about Armenian genetics that came out in 2015 and c) Pip's research. These people were likely R1b. Then a third wave would be a satem language from a culture that arrived in the LBA. According to Pip, they were R1a-Z94 who were likely Indo-Iranian or Indic (perhaps the Mitanni or a related group, maybe the people who introduced the Indo-Iranain superstratum into Kassite). I'd imagine that they would have arrived by 1500 BCE.

    According to the Nature study, the Armenian ethnogenesis was largely completed by 1200 BCE, which is part of the reason why the Balkan theory of a 1200 BCE-600 BCE introduction of the Armenian language by the hypothetical Armen tribe to Urartu is impossible.

    Any of the languages could have been spoken in Iran.

    Here's the Nature article that I was referring to:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Subari as in Shupria/Subartu? That's hardly western Iran. By Asgardi do you mean Asgari? By Almani do you mean Armani? By Germani do you mean Kurman? It seems that a) you're rendering words in ways that make them look Germanic (i.e. Armani as Almani), secondly I fail to see how many of these other words compare to German to begin with.

    Again, just because there might be similar sounds or similar words doesn't make them German.

    So really what you're doing is you're not fitting your theory around the evidence but fitting your evidence around your theory. That's no way to make an argument if you want anybody to take you seriously.
    Shupria and Subaria were probably two different places, in the Akkadian sources Subaria is in the of Gutian land, so it seems to be modern Kurdistan in Iran and partly Iraq.
    By Asgardi, I mean Asagarta in the Old Persian sources, Sagartia and Zagartos in the Greek sources, modern Zagros.
    We see the exact name of Alman in Akkadian sources but it could be changed to Arman in Old Persian because of l>r sound change in Iranian languages.
    Germani is the name of a people in Iran in the ancient Greek sources, it is not really clear that they were the same Kermani/Kurmanj, because we see Carmania in the the same Greek sources too.
    The interesting thing is that you believe the name of Armi in Syria relates to Armenians!

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    *I call them Armani because of the apparent early Indo-European presence of Armi/Arme/Armanum/Arman/Armani, etc. which has been discussed at length already in this thread. According to my theory, they were some sort of Anatolian or quasi-Anatolian Indo-European people. Perhaps the direct ancestors of the Hittites, etc. Perhaps the direct ancestors of the Gutians. Perhaps the direct descendants of the PPIE. Maybe they didn't exist at all but this could explain some things like the Euphratic theory. Then again, their existence is not 100% necessary. The Sumerians could have come into contact with the PPIE or early PIE tribes in the Caucasus or along trade routes. The IE>Hattian influence could have a similar explanation or they could have come into contact with early Steppe-derived tribes who ventured into modern-Turkey (perhaps the very first Greeks or the early Armenians/Hayo). I'm not 100% behind this Armani=PPIE=Euphratic theory...it's just something I've been playing with lately.

    *As for the Mitanni and Indo-Iranian/Indic Kassite superstratum, the theory is that the Mitanni were brought in as mercenaries, maybe charioteers. Perhaps the same goes with the Indo-Iranian culture that was imposed on the Kassites. Eventually these Indo-Iranian/Indics took over and established their own dynasty over a Hurrian (and Armenian? and Anatolian? and Assyrian? population). It'd be reasonable to assume that these soldiers would have relations with local women, whether consensual or not. Armenians and other non-Iranian (and probably some Iranians too) Near Easterners with R1a Y-haplogroup could be a result of these liaisons. Only 8% of modern Armenians are R1a, for instance. So either the haplogroup got diluted over the last 3500 years and/or the population that introduced R1a was very small to begin with (i.e. contingents of mercenaries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Shupria and Subaria were probably two different places, in the Akkadian sources Subaria is in the of Gutian land, so it seems to be modern Kurdistan in Iran and partly Iraq.
    By Asgardi, I mean Asagarta in the Old Persian sources, Sagartia and Zagartos in the Greek sources, modern Zagros.
    We see the exact name of Alman in Akkadian sources but it could be changed to Arman in Old Persian because of l>r sound change in Iranian languages.
    Germani is the name of a people in Iran in the ancient Greek sources, it is not really clear that they were the same Kermani/Kurmanj, because we see Carmania in the the same Greek sources too.
    The interesting thing is that you believe the name of Armi in Syria relates to Armenians!
    I feel uncomfortable saying that Syrian Armi=Armenians but rather that an IE group that were partially ancestral to Armenians, and maybe the direct ancestors of Indo-Hittites/proto-Anatolians gave Armi it's name. The general consensus is that it is an Indo-European name.

    The issue with Armi though is that there was likely more than one place in Syria/Turkey (and possibly Iran) with a name like Armi. Armi/Arme/Armanum/Arman/Armani. Some of these may have been the same places as one another.

    Alfonso Archi places one of these near modern Samsat, Turkey. Incidentally, this is very near where Aram (in ancient Armenian legends) fought some giant (I can't remember the details of the story, sorry). Also, Arme-Shupria/Armani-Subartu (which is usually associated with the Hurrians) was located to the immediate west of Lake Van. In later, Iron Age Greek sources this region was called Sophene. I feel a lot more comfortable connecting these places with Armenians in some capacity or another. Again, I'm not the first to propose this. The similarities in these names have long been noted.

    I'd consider these names as having Hurrian or Semitic etymologies, but these names are clearly etymologized as Indo-European and are being treated as such by contemporary researchers. The Assyrians mentioned a Haria in the same general vicinity as Arme-Shupria. This could either be connected to Hurrians (Hurria?/Hurri?) or Armenians (Har=Ar).

    I think it's possible that Armenians and Hye (which is what Armenians call themselves) were two different groups originally, although both were likely Indo-European. Again, this isn't revolutionary...most researchers have argued that they were two separate groups. Usually, they argue that the Hye predate the Armens, who are supposedly related to the Greeks and the Phrygians, and arrived sometime around 1200 BCE, possibly from the Balkans. This is the longstanding, mainstream Western view. I think, rather, that the Armens (or maybe more accurately, Arman/Armani) were an earlier IE group native to the region and the Hye were Steppe derived and arrived around sometime in the second half of the 3rd millennium BCE. At some point, these groups mixed. This theory reconciles the modern genetic data (including Pip's research that he/she so helpfully and generously provided in this thread) with the available linguistic records (i.e the existence of Arman/Aram/Ara/Ar names in the greater Asia Minor region in early recorded history) and theories (early Indo-European contact with non-Indo-European peoples of the greater Near East). It also reconciles the linguistic connection between the modern Armenian language and other Steppe-derived IE languages--namely Greek, and also Balto-Slavic, Paleo-Balkan, and Indo-Iranian.
    Last edited by tyuiopman; 19-07-19 at 20:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    It's what I believe based on the research of the respected linguists that I provided you. Burgn is the phonetic transliteration of Armenian բուրգն.
    But your argument is that "burg" (i.e. the Germanic word) is the most conservative version of the word. But the Germanic "burg" is pronounced with a hard G, which is the same as in Old Armenian and apparently Urartian, etc. If Germanic=PIE, the German word should be "burj" or "burzh".
    I don't think anybody is suggesting that the root of burgn/burg, etc. is a 100% Armenian, but rather is came from a (likely centum, according to my sources) IE language. Maybe Graeco-Armenian. Maybe something else. Regardless, I don't see how this fits with your Germanic theory.
    It seems likely to me that Armenian was spoken in the Urmia area by at least 1500 BCE, as pottery was found there that is identical to likely IE pottery dated to around the same time from Armenia.
    As Pip and I have been discussing, it seems possible that Armenians are the product of 2-3 waves of likely Indo-European populations. The first one would be Eneolithic/EBA--the PPIE (I'm calling these people the Armani--they would likely have given rise or been closely related to the Hittites, etc.). These people were likely R1b. The second wave would be the "Steppe Armenians" (possibly from Catacomb) who arrived sometime between 2500-2300 BCE. These would be the Hatiyo/Haya/Hayo. This date corresponds with a) the traditional founding of the Armenian nation according to Moses of Korene (2492 BCE) b) the Nature article about Armenian genetics that came out in 2015 and c) Pip's research. These people were likely R1b. Then a third wave would be a satem language from a culture that arrived in the LBA. According to Pip, they were R1a-Z94 who were likely Indo-Iranian or Indic (perhaps the Mitanni or a related group, maybe the people who introduced the Indo-Iranain superstratum into Kassite). I'd imagine that they would have arrived by 1500 BCE.

    According to the Nature study, the Armenian ethnogenesis was largely completed by 1200 BCE, which is part of the reason why the Balkan theory or 1200 BCE-600 BCE introduction of the Armenian language by the hypothetical Armen tribe is impossible.
    Any of the languages could have been spoken in Iran.
    Here's the Nature article that I was referring to:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206
    Instead of Germanic, I think we should say a Centum language with Armenian "devoicing" and Iranian "spirantization", for this reason many Germanic words seem to be almost the same as either Armenian and Iranian words, compare Armenian kow "cow" and Avestan thri "three".
    The fact is that by considering Armenian and Iranian sound changes, a Centum language could be changed to nothing except proto-Germanic in the west of Iran.
    It is important to know that these sound changes in Iranian, Armenian and Germanic languages were under influences of Semitic and Hurrian languages, it doesn't change this possibility that before contact with these people, the original language in this region was proto-IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Instead of Germanic, I think we should say a Centum language with Armenian "devoicing" and Iranian "spirantization", for this reason many Germanic words seem to be almost the same as either Armenian and Iranian words, compare Armenian kow "cow" and Avestan thri "three".
    The fact is that by considering Armenian and Iranian sound changes, a Centum language could be changed to nothing except proto-Germanic in the west of Iran.
    It is important to know that these sound changes in Iranian, Armenian and Germanic languages were under influences of Semitic and Hurrian languages, it doesn't change this possibility that before contact with these people, the original language in this region was proto-IE.
    Well, I don't know if it could only be Proto-Germanic. I'm not really following your line of reasoning here. I have a lot of issues with you stating things emphatically, especially when there is a) such little proof and b) we are talking about things that happened 3000 years ago.

    As for kow, again, that transliteration is misleading. It's closer to k'ov (with a kind of quasi-K, quasi G--this sound doesn't exist in English, maybe it does in Iranian). It's not a hard K but a quasi-hard K (if that makes sense). It has been pronounced as k'ov for at least 1500 years or so. Theoretically, at one time, it could have been kow or maybe gow (from PIE gʷṓws)...but the W has been long lost in Armenian. Just something to take into consideration.

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    I have studied Parthian history they called region of east Afghanistan Indica leika" white india" yet the word leika is related to latin "lac=milk" my question how come? they were so far from Greeks.

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    The key to testing if there is a genetic basis to support Cyrus' Germanics theory is probably to identify the more recent components admixed into Iranians. To me these look a confusing patchwork of diverse sources that I can't really get a handle on. There definitely seems to be some sort of European in there, but also some Far Eastern, Arabian and Indian.
    I'm not sure we have yet hit on all the direct ancestors of first millennium BC Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The key to testing if there is a genetic basis to support Cyrus' Germanics theory is probably to identify the more recent components admixed into Iranians. To me these look a confusing patchwork of diverse sources that I can't really get a handle on. There definitely seems to be some sort of European in there, but also some Far Eastern, Arabian and Indian.
    I'm not sure we have yet hit on all the direct ancestors of first millennium BC Iranians.
    Less worries! I have better way to do it! see if Germanics lived in Zagros region in 500 BC then Avestan/Old Persian too were present in the same region same time so these languages at the time must be so close to be mutually intelligible. Or they must be as close to eachother as Armenian were to Old Persian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I have studied Parthian history they called region of east Afghanistan Indica leika" white india" yet the word leika is related to latin "lac=milk" my question how come? they were so far from Greeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    I have studied Parthian history they called region of east Afghanistan Indica leika" white india" yet the word leika is related to latin "lac=milk" my question how come? they were so far from Greeks.
    Are we sure that it meant "white"? There are other similar sounding words in Indic languages (as well as other IE languages).

    Or it could be from PIE glakt and it lost the G.

    Or it could be from trade with Rome.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    Less worries! I have better way to do it! see if Germanics lived in Zagros region in 500 BC then Avestan/Old Persian too were present in the same region same time so these languages at the time must be so close to be mutually intelligible. Or they must be as close to eachother as Armenian were to Old Persian.
    500 BCE is way to late for them to be mutually intelligible. Germanic is not close enough to Iranian languages for this to be true. Iranian and Indic languages split after 2000 BCE, yet I doubt if you speak Farsi you can understand Hindi. For them to have been mutually intelligible that recently, Germanic would be classified as a Iranic language or Iranian languages would be classified as Germanic. Indo-Iranian is generally considered to be closer to Balto-Slavic than Germanic, which implies that Germanic separated prior to when Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages split from one another.

    Armenian wasn't really similar to Old Persian. By the time Old Persian was spoken in the 6th century BCE, Armenian had likely been separated from Indo-Iranian languages for at least 2000 years. The reason Armenian is similar to Iranian more recently is because of various Iranian superstratums on Armenian (Median, Persian, especially Parthian).

    Here's another example: Modern English, German, and Dutch all share a common ancestor within the last 2000 years. They were likely all mutually intelligible within the last 1300 years. I'm a native English speaker. There are definitely some similar words in English as in Dutch and German, but I cannot understand either language or even the gist of what they are saying when they speak.

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