Does genetics prove Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans?

[tyuiopman]

I'm really interested to find linguistic evidences which show other than proto-Germanic, another Indo-European people also lived in the Middle East and Mediterranean area before 1700 BC, of course some similar names, such as Guti and Goth, Armi and Armenian, Hatti and Hittite, Parhasi and Parsi/Persian, ... can't prove anything. I have researched about it for several years, there are hundreds Germanic words in Old Akkadian, Sumerian, Elamite, ... but we can't find almost any words from other IE languages in these languages, if you know, please mention some of them.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You want potential Indo-European names/words/places in the Middle East from before 1700 BCE? Arman is likely Indo-European. Arra-ti and other Armani/Elbalite names mentioned by Damgaard. Tarhu and other Hattian names like Arinna (I connected Arinna and other Hattian names to IE--they might not be, but others have connected Tarhu to an IE origin, so it seems possible that there were more loans). I've seen Mari being connected to IEs. The Sumerian words mentioned by Whittaker and Sahala.

It really doesn't matter for me that those who have never researched about these things agree with me or not, there are many people in Iran who believe Iranian or Indo-Iranian speaking people lived in Iran in 2,000 BC or even earlier but when I ask them to show their evidences, they just mention the names of Parhasi and Madai in the Sumerian sources!! In fact they have nothing to say.

Isn't that what you're doing with Germanic=Gutian though?

 

[spruithean]

Cyrus, you keep presenting your theories as fact when there is no evidence stating they are, as tyuiopman said it makes people less inclined to pay any attention.

 

[Cyrus]

It's not "clearly of Germanic origin." You're missing the whole point of the linguistic relationships and linguistic families/classifications in general. It was likely a Hurro-Urartian or Armenian word that was borrowed into Greek and Semitic. From Greek, it entered Latin, and subsequently other IE languages. Or it was a PIE word that existed in Armenian/Greek/Anatolian languages and from them it was loaned into Semitic languages. I don't think anybody claims that it's of Germanic origin, it just clearly exists in modern Germanic languages...just like many Greco-Latin, etc. words exist in modern Germanic languages.
Greeks existed at the same time as Urartu. Homer was a contemporary of Urartu. Many Greeks were living in what is now Turkey. It's likely that they were in contact with one another.
Persian burg could either be a native Iranian word, a loanword from Armenian or Greek, or a loanword from Akkadian/Aramaic/Arabic.
The etymology of "burg" as an IE>Urartian loanword is discussed here on page 134:
https://www.academia.edu/2939663/The_Armenian_Elements_in_the_Language_and_Onomastics_of_Urartu

Please explain as an IE word how it could be a non-Germanic word? As you read from my link, linguists, like Kretschmer, believe it is a Germanic word. In fact those who know some basic things about linguistic know that proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ could be changed to burg just in Germanic.

 

[Pip]

How do modern Georgians compare to these prehistoric Georgians genetically?

Sorry, it takes a while to run the data.
Autosomally, modern Georgians come out as a remarkably similar mixture (of preceding local populations) to Iron Age Iran. Whatever affected Iran genetically after 1,000 BC looks to have had little impact in Georgia. This perhaps suggests that any more recent incursors into Iran did not come via Georgia?

 

[tyuiopman]

Cyrus, maybe this doesn't entirely answer your question, but I think some of these cultures were Indo-European and some were maybe Hurro-Urartian and other things (and perhaps some were mixed?). The reason I'm sharing this with you is because some of these regions are very close to Iran geographically:

https://books.google.com/books?id=e...#v=onepage&q=Karmirberd-Sevan culture&f=false

 

[nornosh]

Cyrus, could you name some of your publications/name if possible, I want to study them I love these topics.

 

[tyuiopman]

Sorry, it takes a while to run the data.
Autosomally, modern Georgians come out as a remarkably similar mixture (of preceding local populations) to Iron Age Iran. Whatever affected Iran genetically after 1,000 BC looks to have had little impact in Georgia. This perhaps suggests that any more recent incursors into Iran did not come via Georgia?

Which could support the Shintashta route of Indo-Iranian origins.

So what it sounds like is that there was a block of genetically similar peoples from Iran up to the North Caucasus, correct? Am I understanding this correctly?

As for Steppic+Georgian in 5th millennium BCE Armenian, that supports your previous comment about people moving back and forth from the Caucasus region to the Steppes? Do you think that this is when IE entered the South Caucasus or do you think that that happened afterwards? Perhaps the initial Centum Armenians? How do Early and Middle Bronze Age Armenians look to you (sorry, you may have clarified this before in a previous post)?

 

[tyuiopman]

Yes, these are from an analysis of large modern databases. Based on SNP diversity, yfull estimates a TMRCA of 3,500 BC for Armenian-coalescing clades of R1b and 2,200 BC for South Caspian-coalescing clades of R1a. My estimates based on STR diversity are both earlier - 4,500 BC for Armenian R1b and 2,400 BC for South Caspian R1a. Armenian R1b is fairly stable, behaving like other Near/Middle Eastern lineages. South Caspian R1a is expansive and nomadic, with volatile development patterns - I don't see them in general as part of the same movement. Both might have spoken IE languages - R1b an earlier centum version and R1a a later satemised version, both affecting the final language product.


The original Steppe Armenians/Proto-Armenians could have 'formed' anywhere over a fairly wide area - my guess is somewhere between North East Anatolia and Azov, but there's not enough data to be precise. Depending on where, they might have had fairly limited EHG before R1a arrived.

Regarding ancient language-speaking, the only thing I'm tentatively confident about is that early R1b-DF27 most likely brought a Basque-ancestral language to Spain, rather than a IE one, so I really have no firm idea where IE came from.

Sorry, I just found this old post, Pip.

That 2400 BCE date is interesting because that corresponds very closely with the traditional date for the founding of the Armenian nation by the mythical patriach, Hayk, in 2492 BCE.

 

[Cyrus]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking here. You want potential Indo-European names/words/places in the Middle East from before 1700 BCE? Arman is likely Indo-European. Arra-ti and other Armani/Elbalite names mentioned by Damgaard. Tarhu and other Hattian names like Arinna (I connected Arinna and other Hattian names to IE--they might not be, but others have connected Tarhu to an IE origin, so it seems possible that there were more loans). I've seen Mari being connected to IEs. The Sumerian words mentioned by Whittaker and Sahala.

As you know I myself believe Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans, so it is certainly possible that many names/places in this region have IE origin but I'm talking the descendants of these IE people in this region, for example if you believe Armenian-speaking people lived there, you should mention some Armenian words in other languages, like Old Akkadian or Sumerian. I have asked the same thing from those who claim Iran is the original land of Iranian-speaking people or Turkey is the original land of Turkic people. Sumerian or Akkadian words in Persian or Turkish can't prove this thing, they just came to this land and adopted these words.

 

[tyuiopman]

As you know I myself believe Iran/Armenia is the original land of Indo-Europeans, so it is certainly possible that many names/places in this region have IE origin but I'm talking the descendants of these IE people in this region, for example if you believe Armenian-speaking people lived there, you should mention some Armenian words in other languages, like Old Akkadian or Sumerian. I have asked the same thing from those who claim Iran is the original land of Iranian-speaking people or Turkey is the original land of Turkic people. Sumerian or Akkadian words in Persian or Turkish can't prove this thing, they just came to this land and adopted these words.

I don't necessarily believe that they were Armenian-speaking, as we know it today. But rather PPIE. I think that Armenian (as we know it) might have some elements of the PPIE language which was spoken in the region (i.e. Armenian is either conservative in some way or came in contact with a conservative IE language that was spoken in the Armenia region).

But okay--I've already said that Sumerian "kur" (mountain; foreign land) could come from a pre-satemized version of "sar" (the Armenian word for mountain). Other ones--early Sumerian "gi-in"/ge-en" (female), Armenian "geen" (woman). Sumerian "gu-ur(u)" (crow), Armenian "agrrav" (crow). Sumerian "gu(r)" (to eat), Armenian "ger" (eat [imperative]). Sumerian "igi" (eye), Armenian "akn>achk" (eye). Sumerian "luh" (to wash), Armenian "luvanel" (to wash). Sumerian "si-si" (horse), Armenian "dzi" (horse). Sumerian "uru" (to cultivate), Armenian "arawr>aravr" (to cultivate). Sumerian "agar" (field), Armenian "agarak" (farm).

Arra-ti, which is one of the names etymologized as Indo-European by Damgaard, dating to ~2300 BCE. Arra-ti would mean something like "of the sun god". I actually do not believe that Ararat is a Semitic word that gave rise to Urartu (the Akkadian version of the name) and Ayrarat (the Armenian version of the name), but rather that the name was Ayrarat first...which literally means "people of the sun god, Ar/Ara". Urartu is another version with a similar meaning--Ar-astu. So it's not Semitic>Hurro-Urartian>Armenian but rather Armenian>Hurro-Urartian>Semitic. Aratta of the Sumerians would be the same as Ararat.

In one of those Petrosyan articles I shared with you, he etymologizes the Hurro-Urartian Uelikummi (serpent/dragon) as coming from an PIE root (wel--"to see/know" and also "to coil"). Petrosyan suggests that PIE "wel" became proto-Armenian "uel" (which was borrowed into Hurro-Urartian) which became "gel" (which we see in Georgian) and modern Armenian "gegh." The Urartians or Assyrians mentioned a people called Uelikulki on the shores of Lake Sevan. That region is now called "Gegharkunik" with the "Gegham" Mountains nearby. Petrosyan suggests that there was a tribe in this region called Uelik/Welik (Welik) which would translate to "the Wel people".

I suggest that you read some of the articles that I've shared with you, for example, the one I shared with you earlier today regarding Armenian loans into Hurro-Urartian.

There are probably others. There are a lot from the Urartian-era. I could find more, specifically ones related to gods, from earlier, if you want...like Hattian "Arinna" (name of the holy city of the sun goddess). Ar/Ara are sun-related/sun god words in Armenian.

All of the words I mention here have accepted PIE roots, which makes me think that they were loans from IE>Hattian/Hurro-Urartian/Sumerian/Semitic and not vice versa. Also, as you can see, in the case of languages like Akkadian, sometimes the Armenian word is closer to Sumerian than it is to the Akkadian version (i.e. Sum. agar, Arm. agarak, Akk. ugaaru; Sum. si-si, Arm. dzi, Akk. sisium--this word may have arrived via Hurrian "issi" but the root is still considered to be IE).

I also wonder if uru and arawr (both meaning "cultivate") are related to the sun somehow due to the inclusion of "ara". Sunlight=plants growing.

 

[Pip]

So what it sounds like is that there was a block of genetically similar peoples from Iran up to the North Caucasus, correct? Am I understanding this correctly?

That's what the results of my data analysis indicate.

As for Steppic+Georgian in 5th millennium BCE Armenian, that supports your previous comment about people moving back and forth from the Caucasus region to the Steppes? Do you think that this is when IE entered the South Caucasus or do you think that that happened afterwards? Perhaps the initial Centum Armenians?

I don't know, I'm afraid.

How do Early and Middle Bronze Age Armenians look to you?

Early - mixed local. Middle - affected by admixture from several different Northern and North Western populations, most strikingly Eastern Baltic (my guess is migrations down the Volga).

 

[tyuiopman]

That's what the results of my data analysis indicate.


I don't know, I'm afraid.


Early - mixed local. Middle - affected by admixture from several different Northern and North Western populations, most strikingly Eastern Baltic (my guess is migrations down the Volga).

The eastern Baltic/Volga would make sense. Perhaps there was once a Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian-Graeco-Armenian (and maybe Paleo-Balkan) clade. The Graeco-Armenian-Paleo Balkans left at an early date and began heading south. Paleo-Balkans split off next.

The Graeco-Armenians would arrive in the region of Georgia/modern Turkey by 4th-mid-3rd millennium BCE. Greeks move west through Asia Minor. Armenians remain and form Trialeti-Vanadzor/Sevan-Uzerlik/Kizilvank cultures. Perhaps they encounter a previous IE population sometime here or perhaps as part of the Nairi Confederation. This previous IE population could be the Arman (the newcomers being the Hatiyo/Hayo).

The main issue is explaining Greek as as Centum language. Also, explaining what happened to the Steppe Armenians. Were they just a small population to begin with and their genes just became super diluted?

 

[tyuiopman]

Please explain as an IE word how it could be a non-Germanic word? As you read from my link, linguists, like Kretschmer, believe it is a Germanic word. In fact those who know some basic things about linguistic know that proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ could be changed to burg just in Germanic.

Because it was recorded in Near Eastern cultures that existed prior to when the proto-Germanics (who are a European group and not Near Eastern) are believed to have been around? Why don't you read the source I provided for you (I even specified the page that you should read)? Here's the etymology from Wiktionary:

Belongs to the same family of words as Classical Syriacܒܘܪܓܐ‎ (būrgā), Arabicبُرْج‎ (burj), Urartian[script needed](burgana, “fortress”), Ancient Greekπύργος(púrgos), Latinburgus, Proto-Germanic*burgz.^{[1][2][3][4][5]} The immediate source for the Armenian is uncertain. According to Martirosyan “we may be dealing with a ‘Wanderwort’ ultimately of IE origin; the Armenian, Greek, and Near Eastern forms may reflect an IE centum form (perhaps back loans from indigenous Mediterranean and/or European languages)”.^[6]

Here's the URL. Note the names of the linguists--only half of them are Armenian: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian

What you seem to fail to understand is that these are PIE words. Forms exist in many IE (and other) languages, not just German.

It's like you have this weird confirmation bias. You have convinced yourself that PIE=Germanic so completely that you don't realize that everybody else recognizes PIE as being a parent of, and not the same as, Germanic.

Let's look at the word "star." It exists in German as "stern" so it must be Germanic! Wait, it also exists in Greek as asteri and Armenian as astghik and Spanish as estrella and Latin as stella and Old Persian as stera and might be related to Semitic Ishtar and Astarte (actually, another reason I think there were early IE encounters with Semitic)...they must all be Germanic! Or maybe they just all share the same root...*h₂stḗr?


EDIT:

Here's another -burg source from Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰerǵʰ-

 

[tyuiopman]

By the way, you keep talking about your sources, but you haven't shared them, Cyrus. Would you mind sharing them? I promise I'll actually read your sources.

 

[Pip]

The eastern Baltic/Volga would make sense. Perhaps there was once a Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian-Graeco-Armenian (and maybe Paleo-Balkan) clade. The Graeco-Armenian-Paleo Balkans left at an early date and began heading south. Paleo-Balkans split off next.

The Graeco-Armenians would arrive in the region of Georgia/modern Turkey by 4th-mid-3rd millennium BCE. Greeks move west through Asia Minor. Armenians remain and form Trialeti-Vanadzor/Sevan-Uzerlik/Kizilvank cultures. Perhaps they encounter a previous IE population sometime here or perhaps as part of the Nairi Confederation. This previous IE population could be the Arman (the newcomers being the Hatiyo/Hayo).

The main issue is explaining Greek as as Centum language. Also, explaining what happened to the Steppe Armenians. Were they just a small population to begin with and their genes just became super diluted?

The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.

 

[Cyrus]

I don't necessarily believe that they were Armenian-speaking, as we know it today. But rather PPIE. I think that Armenian (as we know it) might have some elements of the PPIE language which was spoken in the region (i.e. Armenian is either conservative in some way or came in contact with a conservative IE language that was spoken in the Armenia region).
But okay--I've already said that Sumerian "kur" (mountain; foreign land) could come from a pre-satemized version of "sar" (the Armenian word for mountain). Other ones--early Sumerian "gi-in"/ge-en" (female), Armenian "geen" (woman). Sumerian "gu-ur(u)" (crow), Armenian "agrrav" (crow). Sumerian "gu(r)" (to eat), Armenian "ger" (eat [imperative]). Sumerian "igi" (eye), Armenian "akn>achk" (eye). Sumerian "luh" (to wash), Armenian "luvanel" (to wash). Sumerian "si-si" (horse), Armenian "dzi" (horse). Sumerian "uru" (to cultivate), Armenian "arawr>aravr" (to cultivate). Sumerian "agar" (field), Armenian "agarak" (farm).
Arra-ti, which is one of the names etymologized as Indo-European by Damgaard, dating to ~2300 BCE. Arra-ti would mean something like "of the sun god". I actually do not believe that Ararat is a Semitic word that gave rise to Urartu (the Akkadian version of the name) and Ayrarat (the Armenian version of the name), but rather that the name was Ayrarat first...which literally means "people of the sun god, Ar/Ara". Urartu is another version with a similar meaning--Ar-astu. So it's not Semitic>Hurro-Urartian>Armenian but rather Armenian>Hurro-Urartian>Semitic. Aratta of the Sumerians would be the same as Ararat.
In one of those Petrosyan articles I shared with you, he etymologizes the Hurro-Urartian Uelikummi (serpent/dragon) as coming from an PIE root (wel--"to see/know" and also "to coil"). Petrosyan suggests that PIE "wel" became proto-Armenian "uel" (which was borrowed into Hurro-Urartian) which became "gel" (which we see in Georgian) and modern Armenian "gegh." The Urartians or Assyrians mentioned a people called Uelikulki on the shores of Lake Sevan. That region is now called "Gegharkunik" with the "Gegham" Mountains nearby. Petrosyan suggests that there was a tribe in this region called Uelik/Welik (Welik) which would translate to "the Wel people".
I suggest that you read some of the articles that I've shared with you, for example, the one I shared with you earlier today regarding Armenian loans into Hurro-Urartian.
There are probably others. There are a lot from the Urartian-era. I could find more, specifically ones related to gods, from earlier, if you want...like Hattian "Arinna" (name of the holy city of the sun goddess). Ar/Ara are sun-related/sun god words in Armenian.
All of the words I mention here have accepted PIE roots, which makes me think that they were loans from IE>Hattian/Hurro-Urartian/Sumerian/Semitic and not vice versa. Also, as you can see, in the case of languages like Akkadian, sometimes the Armenian word is closer to Sumerian than it is to the Akkadian version (i.e. Sum. agar, Arm. agarak, Akk. ugaaru; Sum. si-si, Arm. dzi, Akk. sisium--this word may have arrived via Hurrian "issi" but the root is still considered to be IE).
I also wonder if uru and arawr (both meaning "cultivate") are related to the sun somehow due to the inclusion of "ara". Sunlight=plants growing.

By the way, you keep talking about your sources, but you haven't shared them, Cyrus. Would you mind sharing them? I promise I'll actually read your sources.

This is my theory about the history of my country and I don't know any European research about Guti, Suedi, Almani, Germani, Asgardi, Subari, Semnoni, Dani, ... people who lived in the west of Iran, if you know I am also interested to read.
But about linguistics I know some good researches, for example read Germania Semitica by German linguist Theo Vennemann.

 

[Cyrus]

Because it was recorded in Near Eastern cultures that existed prior to when the proto-Germanics (who are a European group and not Near Eastern) are believed to have been around? Why don't you read the source I provided for you (I even specified the page that you should read)? Here's the etymology from Wiktionary:



Here's the URL. Note the names of the linguists--only half of them are Armenian: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/բուրգն#Old_Armenian

What you seem to fail to understand is that these are PIE words. Forms exist in many IE (and other) languages, not just German.

It's like you have this weird confirmation bias. You have convinced yourself that PIE=Germanic so completely that you don't realize that everybody else recognizes PIE as being a parent of, and not the same as, Germanic.

Let's look at the word "star." It exists in German as "stern" so it must be Germanic! Wait, it also exists in Greek as asteri and Armenian as astghik and Spanish as estrella and Latin as stella and Old Persian as stera and might be related to Semitic Ishtar and Astarte (actually, another reason I think there were early IE encounters with Semitic)...they must all be Germanic! Or maybe they just all share the same root...*h₂stḗr?


EDIT:

Here's another -burg source from Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰerǵʰ-

The IE language which was spoken in the west of Iran was X which according to your link, proto-IE *bʰerǵʰ is changed to burg, not Armenian barjr or Avestan bərəzəm, Semitic and Urartian words are from burg in X language, not Armenian or Iranian words. I believe just X language was spoken in the west of Iran.

 

[spruithean]

Vennemann's theory is not taken seriously by relevant linguists.
As you said in a previous post, this is your theory. This does not make it fact.

 

[Cyrus]

Cyrus, could you name some of your publications/name if possible, I want to study them I love these topics.

It has not been published yet, I am still researching, in fact I need more genetic evidences for my theory, there are still some important things that I have no answer for them.

 

[tyuiopman]

The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.

The main element of the incursive DNA in Mycenaean Greeks appears to derive from a relatively early wave of Steppe Armenians (LMBA) autosomally associated with predominantly R1b-Z2103 populations and Georgians. Armenia subsequently further acquired (LBA) admixture autosomally associated with predominantly R1a-Z94 populations. This might explain the centum-satem distinction.

I think the Steppe Armenians were affected by both dilution within larger local populations and part-replacement by some of those populations. They probably had to rely on admixture and collaboration in order to survive within heavily-populated and highly-organised societies in regions outside of their steppic comfort zone.

This all makes sense. The Steppe Armenian>Mycenaean could explain some of the similarities between Greek and Armenian...either they came from the same group originally (i.e. Steppe Armenians were Graeco-Armenians) and/or a divergent dialect of Steppe Armenian>Greek and introduced that language to a Minoan population (I guess these theories are kind of the same). These were Centum languages. It also explains the similar grave goods and apparent trade networks between Mycenaeans and MBA Armenians.

The LBA R1a-Z94 could be explained by the Mitanni or Kassites, if they had an Indo-Iranian or Indic superstratum. This language was Satem, as you suggested.

I think that the Steppe Armenians in the LMBA likely entered the South Caucasus sometime between 2500-2300 BCE, perhaps originally they came from Catacomb Culture, and established themselves in northern Armenian and southern Georgia first.