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Thread: bulgarian dna genetic evidence to iron age dwellers from pontic steppe

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    bulgarian dna genetic evidence to iron age dwellers from pontic steppe

    this is for you granny :)

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v1



    a small map of proto -bulgarians homeland and there migration

    https://i.imgur.com/f19urqD.png


    https://i.imgur.com/xK6ylhV.png

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    The conclusions are very strange.
    Neopisivo

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    Feel free to share your concerns when you have the time.

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    maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally 🤔
    So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...🤔

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Feel free to share your concerns when you have the time.
    This sentence:

    However, contemporary Bulgarians have received their Minoan component mostly through population exchange with Byzantium and their Bronze age Thracian component trough admixture/population exchange with early medieval Slavs and Croats. The signal that distinguished contemporary Bulgarians from the other Balkan nations is the unique signature of SM-Alan people, who appear amongst the direct precursors of contemporary Bulgarians.
    Is it possible that contemporary Bulgarians owe their Thracian component to medieval "Slavs and Croats". Slavs arrived at about the same time as Bulgarians.

    (Btw. Croats ARE Slavs but ok).

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    maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally 🤔
    So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...🤔

    That's what we all believed, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    maybe the Bulgars were a Turkic tribe and not Iranian related like sarmatians who lived in the pontic steppe , if modern bulgarians have no siberian and turkic admixture which they lack autosomally ������
    So maybe the Bulgarian invaders were elite who were few in numbers and the 7 slavic tribes who lived in Bulgaria posed there language on them ...������
    I too share this knoledge
    Balgurs (5 clans) were a kind of Central Asian pop, possibly Turkic,
    they came same tiime with Severi Slavs from today Ukraine
    Severi took the inland road to Veliko Tyrnovo
    Balgurs took the coastal wave to Russe
    Maybe I am wrong
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    It is very likely that the Bronze-age Thracian samples used in this study are not good representatives of the paleobalkan population of Bulgaria before the great migrations. Something is missing here. The steppe component that made Bulgarians distinct is probably not from Bulgars but from some earlier migration.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Don't take this study too seriously. There are no new samples and most populations it deals with are only represented by unjustified proxies (for example, they use modern Croatians to represent Medieval Slavs). Most importantly, their only method of comparison is PCA, which is very unreliable with limited data.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    It is very likely that the Bronze-age Thracian samples used in this study are not good representatives of the paleobalkan population of Bulgaria before the great migrations. Something is missing here. The steppe component that made Bulgarians distinct is probably not from Bulgars but from some earlier migration.
    Could SZ1 be a pre-Slavic Bulgarian? it's between the Thracian sample and Scythians
    it's JX1962641 on gedmatch

    Quote Originally Posted by voloh View Post
    more ancient samples from the Balkans and Hungary.



    ancient samples from all of Europe.


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    First there are not many ancient Thracian samples. At least not enough to make definitive conclusions. Now this is total speculation on my part but I think that current Bulgarians are a mix of local Balkanites and Bulgars. There is probably bigger Bulgar influence the more North you go. Also remember that associated with each invading party there were hangers-on of indeterminate ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    First there are not many ancient Thracian samples. At least not enough to make definitive conclusions. Now this is total speculation on my part but I think that current Bulgarians are a mix of local Balkanites and Bulgars. There is probably bigger Bulgar influence the more North you go. Also remember that associated with each invading party there were hangers-on of indeterminate ancestry.
    you need to check the huge study on



    just google Malak Presvalets Dna .....there are many articles ...............all ancient sample
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think there are many wrong conclusions made out in this paper...

    First of all, at first I was happy and thought there will be some new ancient and medieval Balkan samples but there were none and all what those Bulgarian scientists did were making conclusions based on PCA!!!

    The biggest joke is when I read that the the Tracian element comes from the Croats...

    I think the BA Thracian sample they used to make such a conclusion is the one with R-Z93 subclade: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-Age-Bulgaria
    On the PCA this sample might plot close to Croats but when you look more in depth in the admixture components, you will see that this sample is very different from Croats, no wonders tho, it's a BA sample with Yamnaya ancestry.

    Also, saying that the Bulgarians can be modeled also as EEF and Caucasian-ANE mix instead of WHG-EEF-ANE, which comes from the Pontic steppe and owning that mix to the proto-Bulgars makes little sense as that would mean that the proto-Bulgars mixed with fully preserved EEF to form the modern Bulgarian nation!

    Although there is a clear bias and desire to make a more significant connection with the proto-Bulgars, that wouldn't be the case IMHO!
    The modern Bulgarians are clearly ancient Balkan and medieval Slavic mix more than anything with a small West Asian or Caucasian input which might come from the proto-Bulgars or might not, probably not since this West Asian or Caucasian input is visible in all modern Balkan nations!

    And BA Bulgaria is hardly the best sample to use if trying to model the modern Bulgarians but that would probably be the IA Bulgaria which was similar to Mycenaeans: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...NA-on-GEDmatch

    A model using Eurogenes G25:

    red = ancient Balkan
    blue = medieval Slavic

    [1] "distance%=1.5125"


    Bulgarian


    CZE_Early_Slav,27
    BGR_IA,24.4
    HUN_Avar_Szolad,22
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,17.6
    Anatolia_IA,6.8
    Tatar,2.2

    OR even better:

    [1] "distance%=1.4058"


    Bulgarian


    CZE_Early_Slav,26.8
    BGR_IA,23
    HUN_Avar_Szolad,22.6
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,14.8
    Balkar,7.2
    Anatolia_IA,5.6
    Last edited by Aspar; 06-07-19 at 23:06.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The latest study on mitochondrial DNA from Thracian paleogenetic material and Proto-Bulgarian from pagan burials 8-10 century The survey was conducted in 2016. in Florentine University, whose laboratory is specialized in the study of the paleogenetic material. The tables of the report show the mitochondrial hippology of the respective samples of Proto-Bulgarian and Thracian genetic material, as well as a comparison of paleo DNA with that of 36 modern European populations. Page 31, Table 2- Results from the Bulgarian probes tested. Page 32, Table 3-Results from Thracian samples. Page40, Table 10 - Number of individuals belonging to mDNA hippocarpins and subgroups in the samples of 37 populations included in the PCA analysis.Under number 37 - Proto-Bulgarian samples. Page 43, Table 11 - under number 37 - Thracian paleo-probes. The comparison is made between the results of the study of Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and 37 populations from Europe and Asia. The comparison is based on 22 halo logs (H *,H5, HV0, HV, R0a, JT, U1, U2e, U3, U4, U5a, U5b, U6, U7, U8, U *, K, N1, N2, X, M and L). Samples of proto-Bulgarians and Thracians in this analysis are grouped into a single table, the number and ratio of halo logs not changing. Table 12 lists 36 populations from Europe and Asia with which they are compared
    Proto-Bulgarians and Thracians. Discuss the data obtained from the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) analysis of the results of all samples
    The comparative analysis between Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and contemporary Bulgarians shows their position among the populations of Europe and Asia. The graph of the PCA analysis (Figure 32) indicates where the populations are and their proximity to other populations. The Proto-Bulgarians are in close proximity to the modern Bulgarians, which confirms theirs
    kinship and continuity. In the immediate vicinity are Croats, Hungarians and the population of Central Italy. In close proximity are Romanians, Northern Italians, southern Italians, Sicilians and Greeks. They are distant from the Thracians, showing a lack of kinship and continuity between them according to the initial data on the Thracians. The Proto-Bulgarians are also remote from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. There is also a lack of proximity to Northern and Eastern Europe. The Thracians are close to Austrians, Slovenes, Bosnians. They are distant from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/...8Kg52O3V_mLgMs

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    This study is very manipulative, they pick only samples which may serve their agenda - i.e modern Bulgarians are mostly descendants of old Bulgars, who were not Central Asian, but North Caucasus tribe.
    The only Bronze Age sample they show is in fact Bul4 Yamnaya_Bulgaria_outlier from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" which happens to fall over modern Croats. They completely ignore the rest of the Balkan Bronze age samples, which fall over modern Tuscans and old Minoans. This way the big shift towards Anatolia/Caucasus looks to come much later with the arrivals of the Bulgars. In fact we have a sample Iron Age Bulgaria, which could be used as a more recent proxy for Thracians.
    Krum, the latest Nesheva's study about "Thracian" mtDNA is in fact Early Bronze age. As I just said we have a number of full genomes from that era, see some of them discussed here. We have also the Y haplogroups, majority R1a-Z93 and I2-M223 not at all common among Bulgarians nowadays.
    In case you need more information about Bulgarian DNA, read this forum:
    http://dnagenealogy-bg.org/mybb/index.php

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