Mainly men migrated from the Pontic steppe to Europe 5,000 years ago

[johen]

Archaeology, genetics, and language in the steppes: a comment on bomhard
david w. anthony:

"along the banks of the lower volga many excavated hunting-fishing camp sites are dated 6200-4500 bc. they could be the source of CHG ancestry in the steppes."

"the CHG mating network had not yet reached samara by 5500 bc."

"but the third Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, like Yamnaya.
The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals from three middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk, preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry in varying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males, but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosome haplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appear only rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves."

https://www.academia.edu/39985565/A..._Language_in_the_Steppes_A_Comment_on_Bomhard

rms2:
"Notice what Anthony says on pages 7 and 8, i.e., that the Anatolian farmer in Yamnaya came from Europe, probably from Tripolye and/or Globular Amphora. Therefore the ancestors of Yamnaya had to have acquired their CHG before about 5000 BC, because after that date the people in the CHG source regions (eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Iran) had their own share of Anatolian farmer dna, but without the WHG that characterized the Anatolian farmer from Europe carried by Yamnaya.

If the ancestors of Yamnaya got their CHG before 5000 BC, they could not have gotten early Indo-European from the same source, because the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4500 BC and probably later.

There goes the argument for a south-of-the-Caucasus IE Urheimat on both genetic and linguistic grounds."

 

[amustafab]

These migrations certainly didn't relate to Indo-Europeans.

IE people or IE language group? If today IE language dominates vast expanses then some big ethnicity must be envolved. R1b-l51 must be one IE group within larger Yamnaya populace.

 

[Cyrus]

IE people or IE language group? If today IE language dominates vast expanses then some big ethnicity must be envolved. R1b-l51 must be one IE group within larger Yamnaya populace.

The oldest known IE people lived in Tarim Basin, North of India, Iran, Anatolia and Greece, not north of Eurasia or the Basque Country. In fact J2 must one of IE haplogroups, not R1b.

 

[Cyrus]

It is interesting to know where J2 has a low frequency:

 

[Pip]

rms2:
"Notice what Anthony says on pages 7 and 8, i.e., that the Anatolian farmer in Yamnaya came from Europe, probably from Tripolye and/or Globular Amphora. Therefore the ancestors of Yamnaya had to have acquired their CHG before about 5000 BC, because after that date the people in the CHG source regions (eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Iran) had their own share of Anatolian farmer dna, but without the WHG that characterized the Anatolian farmer from Europe carried by Yamnaya.

If the ancestors of Yamnaya got their CHG before 5000 BC, they could not have gotten early Indo-European from the same source, because the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4500 BC and probably later.

There goes the argument for a south-of-the-Caucasus IE Urheimat on both genetic and linguistic grounds."

Horribly convoluted chain of reasoning based on oversimplifications, potentially false premises and two probablys.

1. We don't know that all of the 'Anatolian farmer' in Yamnaya came from Europe
2. To the extent that it did, we don't know whether it came from Tripolye, Globular Amphora or indeed some other culture (e.g. Varna)
3. We don't know that the ancestors of Yamnaya acquired all of their CHG at the same time
4. We don't know that Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran were the only direct source regions of CHG
5. We don't know that all of the people in these regions had their own share of Anatolian farmer DNA
6. Some of these people did have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
7. Some of the Yamnaya didn't have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
8. Not all of the ancestors of Yamnaya necessarily got all of their CHG before 5,000 BC
9. We don't know for sure that the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4,500 BC

This is what can happen when people start off with a conclusion and try to work a chain of logic backwards to fit it.

 

[Cyrus]

Horribly convoluted chain of reasoning based on oversimplifications, potentially false premises and two probablys.

1. We don't know that all of the 'Anatolian farmer' in Yamnaya came from Europe
2. To the extent that it did, we don't know whether it came from Tripolye, Globular Amphora or indeed some other culture (e.g. Varna)
3. We don't know that the ancestors of Yamnaya acquired all of their CHG at the same time
4. We don't know that Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran were the only direct source regions of CHG
5. We don't know that all of the people in these regions had their own share of Anatolian farmer DNA
6. Some of these people did have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
7. Some of the Yamnaya didn't have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
8. Not all of the ancestors of Yamnaya necessarily got all of their CHG before 5,000 BC
9. We don't know for sure that the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4,500 BC

This is what can happen when people start off with a conclusion and try to work a chain of logic backwards to fit it.

And we certainly don't know Yamnaya culture had anything to do with Indo-European culture, I really don't see any reason that we say other than Scythian culture, another IE culture could exist in the Pontic–Caspian steppe, without any doubt the nomadic lifestyle of the Scythians was also under influence of Altaic culture, the spread of IE culture mostly relates to the spread of civilization. India, Iran, Greece, Anatolia and Rome are the cradles of IE civilization.

 

[Pip]

Our biggest hurdle in understanding historical genetics is that we are saddled with the simplistic misconception that everything stems from Yamnaya and 'Steppe DNA', which limits our ability to examine data with an open mind and a clear head.

Yamnaya was simply one of many Steppe cultures that developed in a small part of it and flourished for a brief period, spreading to the Western Steppe around 3,000 BC. We should not take for granted the notion that it was the source of everything.

'Steppe DNA' (EHG + CHG) is an artificial construct over most of its supposed range. Both EEF+EHG without much CHG and CHG+EEF without much EHG were already present in various parts of Central Europe long before Yamnayan 'Steppe DNA' arrived there. There is no reason to automatically assume that all, or even most, of the EHG and CHG in Europe came from Yamnayans bearing 'Steppe DNA'.

Until we can shift ourselves out of this quasi-religious group faith in Yamnayan 'Steppe DNA' being at the core of everything, we will remain stuck in the genetic dark ages.

 

[Pip]

To get back to the question, I suppose the nearest thing to people migrating from the Pontic Steppe to Europe 5,000 years ago was the R1a-M417 population that appears to have spread from roughly the North Eastern corner of Ukraine into North Central Europe possibly at around that time. Its autosomal DNA appears strikingly similar from NE Ukraine in 4,000 BC (Alexandria) to the Southern Baltic in 2,750 BC (Corded Ware), so it seems to me that the women for the most part migrated along with the men.

 

[Cyrus]

Our biggest hurdle in understanding historical genetics is that we are saddled with the simplistic misconception that everything stems from Yamnaya and 'Steppe DNA', which limits our ability to examine data with an open mind and a clear head.

Yamnaya was simply one of many Steppe cultures that developed in a small part of it and flourished for a brief period, spreading to the Western Steppe around 3,000 BC. We should not take for granted the notion that it was the source of everything.

'Steppe DNA' (EHG + CHG) is an artificial construct over most of its supposed range. Both EEF+EHG without much CHG and CHG+EEF without much EHG were already present in various parts of Central Europe long before Yamnayan 'Steppe DNA' arrived there. There is no reason to automatically assume that all, or even most, of the EHG and CHG in Europe came from Yamnayans bearing 'Steppe DNA'.

Until we can shift ourselves out of this quasi-religious group faith in Yamnayan 'Steppe DNA' being at the core of everything, we will remain stuck in the genetic dark ages.

During the formation of the earliest civilizations in Mesopotamia, the Yamnaya culture in the Steppe region was just a crossroad where different people from Eurasia came and went. I think it is the only thing which makes this region important, it is certainly wrong to consider it as an original land of IE or another people.

 

[Cpluskx]

I read that they found y-haplo J in Khvalnysk. What do you think of it?

 

[Pip]

I read that they found y-haplo J in Khvalnysk. What do you think of it?

Unsurprising, but where did you read it? I've seen all sorts of 'findings' relating to various samples - some are later retracted, most are left unconfirmed, information is guarded and remains unpublished, many of the most interesting samples are left only partly tested or completely untested. It does not inspire any great confidence.

 

[Cpluskx]

Unsurprising, but where did you read it? I've seen all sorts of 'findings' relating to various samples - some are later retracted, most are left unconfirmed, information is guarded and remains unpublished, many of the most interesting samples are left only partly tested or completely untested. It does not inspire any great confidence.

It's in Anthony's paper.
https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Archaeology_Genetics_and_Language_in_the_Steppes_A_Comment_on_Bomhard