Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32

Thread: Mainly men migrated from the Pontic steppe to Europe 5,000 years ago

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-15
    Posts
    75
    Points
    3,889
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,889, Level: 18
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 97.0%


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Mainly men migrated from the Pontic steppe to Europe 5,000 years ago


  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    1 members found this post helpful.
    the arrival of the first steppe ancestry in Iberia shows both men and women arrived
    but the men had huge offspring from several women, both with steppe ancestry and local
    the women couldn't produce offspring as numerous as the men did

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    23-04-18
    Posts
    73


    Country: Japan



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Pontic steppe is in Europe.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-15
    Posts
    75
    Points
    3,889
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,889, Level: 18
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 97.0%


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    The Pontic steppe is in Europe.
    It's in Eurasia but not Europe proper.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    23-04-18
    Posts
    73


    Country: Japan



    Quote Originally Posted by Besa View Post
    It's in Eurasia but not Europe proper.
    The Pontic-Caspian steppe
    Is in Eastern Europe and has always been considered part of Europe, Einstein.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-15
    Posts
    75
    Points
    3,889
    Level
    18
    Points: 3,889, Level: 18
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 361
    Overall activity: 97.0%


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Punish Them 911 View Post
    The Pontic-Caspian steppe
    Is in Eastern Europe and has always been considered part of Europe, Einstein.
    There is no such thing as Europe as it's not even a continent. It's called Eurasia. And most of the pontic steppe isn't in what is today Europe proper, so yes, there was a migration into Europe, Einstein, atleast into Europe proper from the Caucasus , Central Asia, Steppe , Uralic area , more or less , which many people today, who also have invented the idea and concept of Europe, don't even consider Europe.

  7. #7
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    To get back to the point, there appears to have been very little migration from the Pontic Steppe in 3,000 BC, whether male or female, otherwise we Europeans would be heavily WHG today. It looks more as if migration was mainly into the Pontic Steppe from both West and East.

  8. #8
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,727
    Points
    26,994
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,994, Level: 50
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Besa View Post
    It's in Eurasia but not Europe proper.
    Well, that's an oxymoron. I mean, Europe is Eurasia, though it's of course distinguishable due to some partial geographic barriers.

  9. #9
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Most Popular

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,727
    Points
    26,994
    Level
    50
    Points: 26,994, Level: 50
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 556
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    To get back to the point, there appears to have been very little migration from the Pontic Steppe in 3,000 BC, whether male or female, otherwise we Europeans would be heavily WHG today. It looks more as if migration was mainly into the Pontic Steppe from both West and East.
    Why? I don't see that much WHG in the Yamnaya samples. Also, Ukraine Neolithic and Ukraine BA (Yamnaya) samples look very different, with far less WHG, and even between Ukraine Neolithic and Ukraine Eneolithic we can already see a steep increase in CHG.

  10. #10
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Why? I don't see that much WHG in the Yamnaya samples. Also, Ukraine Neolithic and Ukraine BA (Yamnaya) samples look very different, with far less WHG, and even between Ukraine Neolithic and Ukraine Eneolithic we can already see a steep increase in CHG.
    Yes, Yamnayans migrated into the Pontic Steppe from the East. And non-Yamnayan Pontic Steppe samples show a resurgence in WHG as Globular Amphora moved in from the West.

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    520
    Points
    6,303
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,303, Level: 23
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 247
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, Yamnayans migrated into the Pontic Steppe from the East.
    east? where? you said like M. Gimbutas.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-19
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    84
    Points
    642
    Level
    6
    Points: 642, Level: 6
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 108
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Eurasian
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    east? where? you said like M. Gimbutas.
    East then south, from Caucasus region.

  13. #13
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    east? where? you said like M. Gimbutas.
    Yes, due East (Caspian Steppe) and further South, from looking at the DNA.

  14. #14
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    520
    Points
    6,303
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,303, Level: 23
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 247
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, due East (Caspian Steppe) and further South, from looking at the DNA.
    Can you explain the migration between yamna and afanasievo considering their WHG and GAC admixtures in your data? Looks like afanasievo have no WHG/GAC, but they do. Actually I think their origin seems to be east ural.

    4

    Can you tell me one more? Why does afanasievo and steppe maykop admixture become similar to eneolithic steppe?

  15. #15
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Can you explain the migration between yamna and afanasievo considering their WHG and GAC admixtures in your data? Looks like afanasievo have no WHG/GAC, but they do. Actually I think their origin seems to be east ural.

    4

    Can you tell me one more? Why does afanasievo and steppe maykop admixture become similar to eneolithic steppe?
    The core readings of Eastern Yamnaya and Afanasievo look pretty similar to me, with (as you might expect) Afanasievo more Northern and Eastern-looking, and slightly less affected by Caucasian and Balkan-origin (probably Novodanilovka) admixture. Western Yamnaya is a rather different - much more heavily affected by local admixture (R1a pre-Corded Ware in the North, Cucuteni Tripolye in the South?)

    Other than that - I don't know.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    23-04-18
    Posts
    73


    Country: Japan



    Quote Originally Posted by Besa View Post
    There is no such thing as Europe as it's not even a continent. It's called Eurasia. And most of the pontic steppe isn't in what is today Europe proper, so yes, there was a migration into Europe, Einstein, atleast into Europe proper from the Caucasus , Central Asia, Steppe , Uralic area , more or less , which many people today, who also have invented the idea and concept of Europe, don't even consider Europe.
    All of the Pontic Steppe is in what is considered Europe proper. You clearly got a third-rate Communist or ex-Communist education (assuming you even have an education)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic–Caspian_steppe

    The Pontic steppe covers an area of 994,000 square kilometres (384,000 sq mi) of Europe, extending from Dobrudja in the northeastern corner of Bulgaria and southeastern Romania, across southern Moldova, Ukraine, through Russia to northwestern Kazakhstan to the Ural Mountains
    Go cut me some firewood, boy.

  17. #17
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    These migrations certainly didn't relate to Indo-Europeans.

  18. #18
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    520
    Points
    6,303
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,303, Level: 23
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 247
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    The core readings of Eastern Yamnaya and Afanasievo look pretty similar to
    Can you tell me the difference between qpAdm and CP/NNLS model at the newest schythian paper, page 5? which one is more accurate?

    In the paper, yamna kalmykia, samara have altai admixture in the hqpAdm model, not in CP/NNLS.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hian_Dominance

  19. #19
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    520
    Points
    6,303
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,303, Level: 23
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 247
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Archaeology, genetics, and language in the steppes: a comment on bomhard
    david w. anthony:

    "along the banks of the lower volga many excavated hunting-fishing camp sites are dated 6200-4500 bc. they could be the source of CHG ancestry in the steppes."

    "the CHG mating network had not yet reached samara by 5500 bc."

    "but the third Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, like Yamnaya.
    The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals from three middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk, preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry in varying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males, but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosome haplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appear only rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves."

    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

  20. #20
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Can you tell me the difference between qpAdm and CP/NNLS model at the newest schythian paper, page 5? which one is more accurate?

    In the paper, yamna kalmykia, samara have altai admixture in the hqpAdm model, not in CP/NNLS.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hian_Dominance
    It's probably just a question of definition. If one model finds some Altai, I suspect it does exist in some respects and to some degree.

  21. #21
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    520
    Points
    6,303
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,303, Level: 23
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 247
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Archaeology, genetics, and language in the steppes: a comment on bomhard
    david w. anthony:

    "along the banks of the lower volga many excavated hunting-fishing camp sites are dated 6200-4500 bc. they could be the source of CHG ancestry in the steppes."

    "the CHG mating network had not yet reached samara by 5500 bc."

    "but the third Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, like Yamnaya.
    The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals from three middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk, preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry in varying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males, but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosome haplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appear only rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves."

    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard
    rms2:
    "Notice what Anthony says on pages 7 and 8, i.e., that the Anatolian farmer in Yamnaya came from Europe, probably from Tripolye and/or Globular Amphora. Therefore the ancestors of Yamnaya had to have acquired their CHG before about 5000 BC, because after that date the people in the CHG source regions (eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Iran) had their own share of Anatolian farmer dna, but without the WHG that characterized the Anatolian farmer from Europe carried by Yamnaya.

    If the ancestors of Yamnaya got their CHG before 5000 BC, they could not have gotten early Indo-European from the same source, because the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4500 BC and probably later.

    There goes the argument for a south-of-the-Caucasus IE Urheimat on both genetic and linguistic grounds."

  22. #22
    Junior Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    22-09-15
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    1
    Points
    2,883
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,883, Level: 15
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 167
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Don't know!

    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    These migrations certainly didn't relate to Indo-Europeans.
    IE people or IE language group? If today IE language dominates vast expanses then some big ethnicity must be envolved. R1b-l51 must be one IE group within larger Yamnaya populace.

  23. #23
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by amustafab View Post
    IE people or IE language group? If today IE language dominates vast expanses then some big ethnicity must be envolved. R1b-l51 must be one IE group within larger Yamnaya populace.
    The oldest known IE people lived in Tarim Basin, North of India, Iran, Anatolia and Greece, not north of Eurasia or the Basque Country. In fact J2 must one of IE haplogroups, not R1b.


  24. #24
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    It is interesting to know where J2 has a low frequency:


  25. #25
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    rms2:
    "Notice what Anthony says on pages 7 and 8, i.e., that the Anatolian farmer in Yamnaya came from Europe, probably from Tripolye and/or Globular Amphora. Therefore the ancestors of Yamnaya had to have acquired their CHG before about 5000 BC, because after that date the people in the CHG source regions (eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Iran) had their own share of Anatolian farmer dna, but without the WHG that characterized the Anatolian farmer from Europe carried by Yamnaya.

    If the ancestors of Yamnaya got their CHG before 5000 BC, they could not have gotten early Indo-European from the same source, because the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4500 BC and probably later.

    There goes the argument for a south-of-the-Caucasus IE Urheimat on both genetic and linguistic grounds."
    Horribly convoluted chain of reasoning based on oversimplifications, potentially false premises and two probablys.

    1. We don't know that all of the 'Anatolian farmer' in Yamnaya came from Europe
    2. To the extent that it did, we don't know whether it came from Tripolye, Globular Amphora or indeed some other culture (e.g. Varna)
    3. We don't know that the ancestors of Yamnaya acquired all of their CHG at the same time
    4. We don't know that Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran were the only direct source regions of CHG
    5. We don't know that all of the people in these regions had their own share of Anatolian farmer DNA
    6. Some of these people did have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
    7. Some of the Yamnaya didn't have the WHG that characterised the Anatolian farmers from Europe
    8. Not all of the ancestors of Yamnaya necessarily got all of their CHG before 5,000 BC
    9. We don't know for sure that the oldest possible date for early Indo-European is 4,500 BC

    This is what can happen when people start off with a conclusion and try to work a chain of logic backwards to fit it.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •