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Thread: Actual Medieval Rurikid DNA - not from modern people who claim descent from Rurik

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
    See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
    It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.
    How do we know that?

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    W
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
    See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
    It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.
    Perfectly natural that they have I2-Din. You really are not understanding the way this works. I’m not saying anyone with this line is a Slav, the same as an I1 African American is not an Anglo-Saxon. However the ancestor most probably was.

    The problem you’re not understanding about genetics is the TMRCA. Overwhelming majority of I2a1b-Din, probably nearly 100 percent belongs under CTS10228, the complete entirely of which(outside rare occurrences) falls under Y3120 which dates to 200BC. ALL men of this line regardless of identification descend from ONE man only 2200 years ago. The Proto Slavic ethnogenesis was already under way where this line participated and expanded demographically with the Slavic migrations.

    How then was multiple origins for the line? There are some clades that may be more common than others pointing to association with ethnic groups by subclade, but the truth is it’s earliest ancestor was likely Proto Slavic.

    You’re wrong about Aromanians. They’re predominantly paleo-Balkan lineages such as R1b,J2b,J2a,V13. R1a/I2a1b form minorities among them. They’re closest to Albanians and Greeks with their YDNA breakdown.

    You’re referring to Vlachs, which while Latin speaking and akin to Romanians are far more mixed than Aromanians.

    Also you bring up Dacians but the truth is they weren’t Latin speakers and they were mostly no where to be found by the migration. , Aromanians from the southern Balkans including later Vlachs migrated to Romania and assimilated and mixed with the the Slavs and other tribes in the area becoming the Wallachian and later Romanian peoples whom evolved from a mixture of all these.

    There may be clades that can be called Vlach or Romanian or Greek but ultimately their forefather was one man from Eastern Europe in 200bc.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    200 BC can be very well a Gothic ethnic, not a Slavic one.
    Actually 200 BC fits much better the Gothic migrations, not the Slavic migrations.
    Slavic migrations started around 600 AD, not around 200 BC.
    We do not know when exactly the Goths started to move South but we know that the legend was telling that the Gothic tribes started to move from South Sweden, this is what Jordanes also tells in his book.
    The archaelogical proofs are showing Goths in North Germany and in NW Poland from where they are migrating South.
    In regards to mister Rurik, it is atested by various historians that Old Norse was spoken in Kievan Rus.
    Also, it was said by various historical sources that mister Rurik came from Sweden.
    Old Norse was not Gothic ,since Gothic is East Germanic language and if mister Rurik had some I2-din as paternal line, he could be from the persons from Sweden that still had I2-din.But he was a Swedish ethnic, that had as mother tongue Old Norse.
    So we cannot tell that mister Rurik was a Slavic ethnic, just because he had I2-din paternal line.
    See that is another thread opened by Tomenable, about Vikings DNA and some or more Vikings are scoring high Polish-like DNA admixture.
    Some early Slavs and some Norse people might have lived together, somewhere, before Slavic migration started.
    I think is without doubt that mister Rurik was actually a Swedish ethnic.

    "According to the Primary Chronicle, Rurik was one of the Rus', a Varangian tribe likened by the chronicler to Danes, Swedes, Angles, and Gotlanders."
    Gotlanders were the inhabitants of Gotland island, which is in the extreme South of Sweden.
    So I2-din might have been rare, around 700 - 800 AD, in South of Sweden, but still present.

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    I see an overwhelming number of German , Scandinavian , Italian and Spanish etc. flags here:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

    Or maybe its carriers among Goths all perished in battle ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    I see an overwhelming number of German , Scandinavian , Italian and Spanish etc. flags here:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

    Or maybe its carriers among Goths all perished in battle ...
    Most samples of this I-Y3120 are found in Poland.Actually, those that appeared 2200 yrs ago are found in Poland.
    According to the archaelogical proofs, the migration of the Gothic tribes started from NW Poland.
    Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.
    There is found 1 sample in Italy.
    24 are found in Poland, 8 in Germany.
    22 in Russia.
    21 in Ukraine.
    9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
    Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.
    10 in Serbia.
    4 in Croatia.Croatia is well known to have highest R1A from ex-Yugos which is clearly associated with the Slavs.
    2 are found in Latvia.
    5 in Finland.
    So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
    In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
    In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
    In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.

    Only those that are formed 1400 YBP till 1300 YBP can be from Slavic migration.
    If you look with attention, most are formed 2200 YBP or till 1800 YBP - those are surely Gothic tribes moves.
    Those lines formed 1200 or 1000 YBP are from the moves of the Varangians.
    For example these 2 samples found in Greece with 1150 YBP formation year:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y153039/
    These are Varangians from the Varangian guard, that remained in Byzantine Empire or had children there.

    These can be from Slavic ethnics migration but also from Goths that moved North:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A19454/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:

    Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

    If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

    And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post552727

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro (Table S6):

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...?download=true

    =====

    Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.
    A short question, how was Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
    His mother is 100% Scando+ Slavic so the father of Gleb must be like 45-50% South Euro.
    Or his mother was part South Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.

    9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.
    Yep,Greeks have some serious germanic admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
    Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.

    So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
    In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
    In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
    In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.
    And the carriers of I-Y3120 among Goths all perished in battle on their conquest westwards.
    All Germany samples are from provinces bordering with Slavs(except for the Baden-Wuerttemberg sample which is probably later migration).A yes add one Swiss sample from Bern .

    Where are the Italian,French,Iberian samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Yep,Greeks have some serious germanic admixture.



    And the carriers of I-Y3120 among Goths all perished in battle on their conquest westwards.
    All Germany samples are from provinces bordering with Slavs(except for the Baden-Wuerttemberg sample which is probably later migration).A yes add one Swiss sample from Bern .

    Where are the Italian,French,Iberian samples?
    Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
    Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
    So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
    And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
    Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
    Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
    Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
    We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
    25% South Euro is weird.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
    Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
    So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
    And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
    Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
    Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
    Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
    We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
    25% South Euro is weird.

    That Visigoth sample was Balkan EV13 mixed with Goth maternal. Take away the Goth maternal side, then it plots pretty much at modern-day Albanians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Some Visigoth sample from Spain are very close to our days Serbian.
    Also,a Crimean Goth scores very close to our days Greeks.
    So,that "Germanic" admixture might not have been so high in Gothic people.
    And Goths might have not been that uniform on autosomal DNA.
    Also, in the areas of Spain where Visigoths settled there is more R1A.
    Because as there were Goths that become Slavs were Slavs that become Goths.
    Anyway, this discussion is not relevant to this thread, because as I asked above, how is possible that Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro?
    We seen some Varangians were mostly Slavic some mostly Scandos, some mixed.
    25% South Euro is weird.


    Among the Byzantine authors, the Gothic author Jordanes in his work Getica (written in 550 or 551 AD) describes the Veneti as a "populous nation" whose dwellings begin at the sources of the Vistula and occupy "a great expanse of land". He describes them as the ancestors also of the Sclavenes (a people who appeared on the Byzantine frontier in the early 6th century and who are believed to have been the early South Slavs) and of the Antes. Specifically, he states that the Slavs and the Antes used to be called the Veneti but are now "chiefly" (though, by implication, not exclusively) called Slavs and Antes. He places the Slavs north of a line from the Dniestr to Lake Musianus the location of which is unclear but which has been variously identified with Lake Constance, the Tisa–Danube marshes or the Danube delta. He places the Antes to the east of the Slavs.
    Later in Getica he returns to the Veneti stating, again, that though "off-shoots of one stock [these people] have now three names, that is Veneti, Antes and Sclaveni" and noting that they, at one time, had been conquered by the Goths under Ermanaric. Consistent with the view that the Veneti were an umbrella term for these three peoples, he later also recalls the defeat of the Antes at the hands of a Gothic chieftain named Vinitharius, i.e., conqueror of the Veneti.


    How did the South European ethnonym pass to the Slavs? Only through the mixing of the Adriatic Veneti with the Slavs. Nothing else. And this mixing was only with I2a-din. That's the simplest explanation. As usual it is the correct one.
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 31-07-19 at 11:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Most samples of this I-Y3120 are found in Poland.Actually, those that appeared 2200 yrs ago are found in Poland.
    According to the archaelogical proofs, the migration of the Gothic tribes started from NW Poland.
    Also, we can see such samples at Greeks, in a significant percentage.
    There is found 1 sample in Italy.
    24 are found in Poland, 8 in Germany.
    22 in Russia.
    21 in Ukraine.
    9 in Greece. Too many in Greece, to be from mixing with the Slavs.Is the Goths.8 from these 9 Y DNA found in Greece, are formed 2200 or 2100 years ago.
    Is clearly the Goths, not the Slavs.
    10 in Serbia.
    4 in Croatia.Croatia is well known to have highest R1A from ex-Yugos which is clearly associated with the Slavs.
    2 are found in Latvia.
    5 in Finland.
    So I would say that is actually the Goths and the Varangians that spread most this Y DNA not the Slavs.
    In Poland is the Goths that remained there and became Slavizied.
    In Ukraine and Russia is the Varangians mostly.
    In Serbians,Croats,etc South-Slavs and Greeks is the Goths.

    Only those that are formed 1400 YBP till 1300 YBP can be from Slavic migration.
    If you look with attention, most are formed 2200 YBP or till 1800 YBP - those are surely Gothic tribes moves.
    Those lines formed 1200 or 1000 YBP are from the moves of the Varangians.
    For example these 2 samples found in Greece with 1150 YBP formation year:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y153039/
    These are Varangians from the Varangian guard, that remained in Byzantine Empire or had children there.

    These can be from Slavic ethnics migration but also from Goths that moved North:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A19454/
    Croats for now coming from White Croatia.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ats-to-Croatia

    One of genetic candidate for Varangians is I2a branch I-Y4460.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post572616

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Among the Byzantine authors, the Gothic author Jordanes in his work Getica (written in 550 or 551 AD) describes the Veneti as a "populous nation" whose dwellings begin at the sources of the Vistula and occupy "a great expanse of land". He describes them as the ancestors also of the Sclavenes (a people who appeared on the Byzantine frontier in the early 6th century and who are believed to have been the early South Slavs) and of the Antes. Specifically, he states that the Slavs and the Antes used to be called the Veneti but are now "chiefly" (though, by implication, not exclusively) called Slavs and Antes. He places the Slavs north of a line from the Dniestr to Lake Musianus the location of which is unclear but which has been variously identified with Lake Constance, the Tisa–Danube marshes or the Danube delta. He places the Antes to the east of the Slavs.
    Later in Getica he returns to the Veneti stating, again, that though "off-shoots of one stock [these people] have now three names, that is Veneti, Antes and Sclaveni" and noting that they, at one time, had been conquered by the Goths under Ermanaric. Consistent with the view that the Veneti were an umbrella term for these three peoples, he later also recalls the defeat of the Antes at the hands of a Gothic chieftain named Vinitharius, i.e., conqueror of the Veneti.


    How did the South European ethnonym pass to the Slavs? Only through the mixing of the Adriatic Veneti with the Slavs. Nothing else. And this mixing was only with I2a-din. That's the simplest explanation. As usual it is the correct one.
    Well the Veneti can be same with the Wends which were the Poles ancestors.
    Antes were East of Wends/Veneti ancestors of Eastern Slavs.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well the Veneti can be same with the Wends which were the Poles ancestors.
    Antes were East of Wends/Veneti ancestors of Eastern Slavs.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

    The original wends
    They are involved in the wendish crusade against the saxons
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

    The original wends
    They are involved in the wendish crusade against the saxons
    And who were the Veneti?
    It seems that Jordanes refers to Vistula Venethi, not to the people from NE Italy:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
    Back to the subject, that Southern Y DNA seems that Gleb Svyatoslavovich might have had a father from South Slavs which was not his Viking/Polish/Eastern Slav (Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich) supposed father.
    If would have been a Greek or a Roman, would have brought some Western DNA also.

    Another possibility is that the mother of Gleb Svyatoslavovich was a South Slavic woman or even Ukrainian woman, that had brought that Southern DNA.

    The name Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich makes clear that the origin was Viking of Polish or Eastern Slav genetics, see the "Slavich" from the family name.
    So these Varangians might have been Swedish native speakers, but it seems they were Polish or Eastern Slavs, as genetics.
    So very likely, a North Slavic tribe that have joined the Swedish Vikings, got assimilated as Swedish ethnics and hundreds of years later, some of them came as rulers of Russia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    And who were the Veneti?
    It seems that Jordanes refers to Vistula Venethi, not to the people from NE Italy:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
    Back to the subject, that Southern Y DNA seems that Gleb Svyatoslavovich might have had a father from South Slavs which was not his Viking/Polish/Eastern Slav (Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich) supposed father.
    If would have been a Greek or a Roman, would have brought some Western DNA also.

    Another possibility is that the mother of Gleb Svyatoslavovich was a South Slavic woman or even Ukrainian woman, that had brought that Southern DNA.

    The name Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich makes clear that the origin was Viking of Polish or Eastern Slav genetics, see the "Slavich" from the family name.
    So these Varangians might have been Swedish native speakers, but it seems they were Polish or Eastern Slavs, as genetics.
    So very likely, a North Slavic tribe that have joined the Swedish Vikings, got assimilated as Swedish ethnics and hundreds of years later, some of them came as rulers of Russia.
    I know about Jordanes, who was a goth....the vistula venethi is wrong terminology.....he speaks about the Venedi, a west-baltic tribe living on the corner of the baltic sea and the nogat river. Their neighbours the goths living on both sides of the lower vistula river absorbed them as well as there neighbours the Aestii circa 200AD and then together marched to the black sea.
    They are an insignificant tribe

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The veleti tribe , who are the original wends are a slav people......they are the first slav people to arrive in poland, coming in from the upper vistula river area.......upper as in slovakia area

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    The Veneti were the root of the future West Slavic people. The Goths spread some of their West Baltic R1a into the Mediterranean, as did the Vandals. The idea that the Slavic people magically appeared out of the Pripyat swamps in 500 AD is outdated and wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    The Veneti were the root of the future West Slavic people. The Goths spread some of their West Baltic R1a into the Mediterranean, as did the Vandals. The idea that the Slavic people magically appeared out of the Pripyat swamps in 500 AD is outdated and wrong.
    Veleti are slavs , the most numerous
    Veneti/venedi are west-balts , a insignifixant tribe...they eventually became the old-prussian warmian tribe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    W

    Perfectly natural that they have I2-Din. You really are not understanding the way this works. I’m not saying anyone with this line is a Slav, the same as an I1 African American is not an Anglo-Saxon. However the ancestor most probably was.

    The problem you’re not understanding about genetics is the TMRCA. Overwhelming majority of I2a1b-Din, probably nearly 100 percent belongs under CTS10228, the complete entirely of which(outside rare occurrences) falls under Y3120 which dates to 200BC. ALL men of this line regardless of identification descend from ONE man only 2200 years ago. The Proto Slavic ethnogenesis was already under way where this line participated and expanded demographically with the Slavic migrations.
    These estimates may change though and they have changed in the past too.
    Concerning 'paleo-Balkan' lineages you should see the subclades. Even if an haplogroup is 'paleo-Balkan' back migrations are possible.
    A 'Greek' lineage returning to Greece as a Goth, Bulgar, Slav,Vlach, Albanian and whatnot is something that could have happened.

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    Venetic people were not slavs or balts. Their language is an isolate branch in between italo-celtic and illyric branch.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    other rurikid member such as vladimir the great,ivan the teribble has tested?

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    The most weird thing is that Gleb Svyatoslavovich has 25% South Euro autosomal DNA while his mother was, according to Tomenable, Polish-like, so 100% North Europe and Baltic.
    It results that Gleb's father had 40-50% South Euro if Gleb was not adopted.
    @Tomenable : how do you explain this?

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    It's not sure the southern Veneti language was in between Celtic and Italic, it seems they were rather on the Italic side, the Latino-Faliscan one, and was an archaic form stayed longer in North in proximity of proto-Germanic (according to B. Sergent, early Italic kept in its first stage more ties with proto-Germanic and with proto-Slavic than did Celtic) ; things are not clear at all; I don't exclude first veneti being part of Lusacian culture at Urnfields times (West the Vistula/Wisla), separated from ancestors of Qw- Latins by the coming of Osco-Umbrians (P- Italics) : here I 'd need the help of a knowledged archeologist; it's possible the Germanics applied the name of this ethny to other close neighbours in Poland, a bit further East, among them Balto-Slavic tribes, or proto-Baltic and/or proto-Slavs; when true Veneti left the North to go towards South, under diverse pressions, this name, evolved in Venedi, applied later to the remnant of neighbours, possibly Balts and/or Slavs; this way of unprecise namings is common, Germanics applied the 'walah' terminology to a lot of foreign pops everywhere when at first it qualified a Celtic tribe only! (Welsh, Wallach... even maybe Gaul) - this Venedi can explain the Wend term, applied today to a Slavic group in East-Germany -

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Venetic people were not slavs or balts. Their language is an isolate branch in between italo-celtic and illyric branch.
    Venedi are on the baltic sea and are a west-baltic people,
    Briitany veneti are in NW france and are a gaulish people and then you have adriatic veneti.....which are called venetic in BC times......although italians call them Paleo-veneti
    Yes they are mixed with histri illyrians , nori illyrians and libiurnian illyrians

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It's not sure the southern Veneti language was in between Celtic and Italic, it seems they were rather on the Italic side, the Latino-Faliscan one, and was an archaic form stayed longer in North in proximity of proto-Germanic (according to B. Sergent, early Italic kept in its first stage more ties with proto-Germanic and with proto-Slavic than did Celtic) ; things are not clear at all; I don't exclude first veneti being part of Lusacian culture at Urnfields times (West the Vistula/Wisla), separated from ancestors of Qw- Latins by the coming of Osco-Umbrians (P- Italics) : here I 'd need the help of a knowledged archeologist; it's possible the Germanics applied the name of this ethny to other close neighbours in Poland, a bit further East, among them Balto-Slavic tribes, or proto-Baltic and/or proto-Slavs; when true Veneti left the North to go towards South, under diverse pressions, this name, evolved in Venedi, applied later to the remnant of neighbours, possibly Balts and/or Slavs; this way of unprecise namings is common, Germanics applied the 'walah' terminology to a lot of foreign pops everywhere when at first it qualified a Celtic tribe only! (Welsh, Wallach... even maybe Gaul) - this Venedi can explain the Wend term, applied today to a Slavic group in East-Germany -
    if you have a more recent paper than this below......let me know
    The only issue I have is that the town Oderzo was an shared illyrian/venetic trading town.........it was a place amber was traded , as the illyrians got the amber in modern Vienna and traded in oderzo

    https://www.academia.edu/5857512/On_...ard=view-paper

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