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Thread: Actual Medieval Rurikid DNA - not from modern people who claim descent from Rurik

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Poland



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Actual Medieval Rurikid DNA - not from modern people who claim descent from Rurik

    DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:

    Gleb Svyatoslavovich in this publication about Viking Age DNA is the sample VK542:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

    If I'm not mistaken, Gleb Svyatoslavovich was directly descended from Rurik himself.

    And since he was I2a-Din, it makes the theory about I2a-Din Rurik more probable:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post552727

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Gleb Svyatoslavovich (VK542) was ca. 71% Slavic and 25% South Euro (Table S6):

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...?download=true

    =====

    Another Rurikid prince tested in this publication was Izyaslav Ingvarovich - his haplogroup was R1a-L1029.

    In terms of autosomal DNA, Izyaslav Ingvarovich (buried in Lutsk) - sample VK541 - was over 95% Slavic.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    This is actual DNA extracted from bones in Rurikid dynasty's Medieval graves.

    Not some N1c from modern people who claim descent from Rurik but can't prove there was no Non-Paternal Event along the way.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Ingegerd's mother would be "Polish-like":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrid_of_the_Obotrites

    Ingegerd's paternal grandmother as well:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A...99tos%C5%82awa

    Ingegerd could be >3/4 Polish-like autosomally.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 19-07-19 at 11:21.

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    For I2a-Din It may be branch I-Y4460 which is expanding from Kiev area to Hungary, Baltic etc.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post572616

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/

    71.1% Poland, 24.6% ↑ Balkan, 1% ↓ Baltic
    If this is an autosomal result for that person Balkan autosomal percentage is very likely based on today's living genetics which means that this is a connection in place where they all once lived together, ie. in the south Poland and southwestern Ukraine.

    This is the same case when today we see many Ukrainians, Polish, Russians etc having a certain percentage of autosomal Balkan. Only connection that Russians, Ukrainians, Polish etc have with Croatians is in the area of the White Croatia (I2a dinaric, some branch of R1a) from where some common ancestors go to Russia etc, some towards Balkans, because when I wach dna results on youtube almost everyone (Rusian, Ukrainian, Slovakian etc) have some percentage of Balkan autosomalty and as far as I know there are no massive migrations from Balkans to those countries, only explanation is theirs common source which is in the old homeland.

    http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tr...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Nice. But "Polish-like" is not necessarily 'Slavic' exactly.

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    this family belongs very different paternal ancestor.

    oleg I of chernigov and his paternal descendants:R1a1(slavic or baltic branches)


    iziaslav II of kiev paternal ancestor of Izyaslav Ingvarovich.



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    this family belongs very different paternal ancestor.

    oleg I of chernigov and his paternal descendants:R1a1(slavic or baltic branches)

    iziaslav II of kiev and his paternal descendants:R1a-L1029(this exist over of page)

    some rurikid have N1c1 and I2a Y dna.

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    I never understand that this happened.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    some rurikid have N1c1 and I2a Y dna.
    Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a2) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region. According to the Y-DNA haplogroup chart compiled by the Rurikid DNA Dynasty Project, some R1a Rurikid princes were descendants of Rurik on maternal branches (i.e. the Dunin clan), which is why they didn't inherit N1c1 through the paternal line.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 24-07-19 at 04:19.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region.
    original Y dna of rurikid dynasty is obscure. according the eupedia oleg I of chernigov have r1a1 and Vladimir II Monomakh
    have N1c1 and this page say that some descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh have R1a-L1029. this is interesting but this family have more than this.

    Sviatoslav II Iaroslavich is father of Gleb Svyatoslavich and oleg I of chernigov.

    Gleb Svyatoslavich have I2a-Din Y dna.

    oleg I of chernigov have R1a1 Y dna.





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    same father different Y dna.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    Rurik was a Varangian prince. The Varangians were of Viking stock from Scandinavia (I2a) who ruled over the Finnic (N1c1) and Slavic (R1a) tribes. Rurik's Finnic (N1c1) ancestry can be explained by the fact that he was a Kven Viking. 68% of Rurik's descendants had hg N1c1, while some Rurikid princes carried I2a and R1a. For instance, Prince Stanislaw Antoni Czetwertynski was found to belong to the I2a2 haplogroup, which is typical for the native population of the Belarussian-Ukrainian Polissiya region. According to the Y-DNA haplogroup chart compiled by the Rurikid DNA Dynasty Project, some R1a Rurikid princes were descendants of Rurik on maternal branches (i.e. the Dunin clan), which is why they didn't inherit N1c1 through the paternal line.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    I2a1b is not Scandinavian. It is just as Slavic, if not moreso(in the case of medieval migrations) than R1a is. It was also during the Viking and later Varangian age, which was hundreds of years after these lineages expanded and were assimilated and moved again. Nothing is certain yet other than both supposed Rurikids belonging to assumingly Slavic clades of both I2 & R1a.

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    Right now this is what the evidence suggests:

    Yaroslav the Wise and Ingegerd had three sons, and their descendants belong to:

    Izyaslav - his modern descendants are I2a
    Sviatoslav - no descendants survived to present-day (?), but Gleb (his son) was I2a (per this study)
    Vsevolod - his modern descendants are N1c


    ^^^
    And Vsevolod's N1c is the suspected product of Ingegerd's romance with Olaf II Haraldsson.

    The theory about Vsevolod being Olaf's son: https://space-time.ru/space-time/art...st3-21.2015.71

    IMO testing Olaf II Haraldsson's descendants (or his own bones, if they exist) should follow.

    =====

    But I understand that "Christian supremacists" will deny that Saint Anna could ever cheat: ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingege...eden#Sainthood

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    When you look at it, seems more like a case of bastardé offsprings.

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    Protestants don't believe in Canonization like Catholics (and to a lesser extent, Orthodox) so leave us out of that, okay? I'm going with L1029 as the original Rurikid line until evidence from males that are further up in the line towards Rurik proves otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmak View Post
    same father different Y dna.
    Someones wife was a very bad girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    DNA of prince Gleb Svyatoslavovich from the grave in Chernihiv cathedral was tested, he was I2a-Din not N1c:
    All genetics aside weren't the Ruriks supposed to be non-Slavs though? I guess they were just acculturated locals in the end, instead of proper vikings.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    All genetics aside weren't the Ruriks supposed to be non-Slavs though? I guess they were just acculturated locals in the end, instead of proper vikings.
    Vikings are not a people but a cultural type associated with raiding parties. Perhaps you meant to say Scando-Germanic or Scandinavian. Viking culture is not unique to Scandinavia. There were Finnish, Baltic and Slavic vikings.

    Additionally, regardless of the Slavic nature of the lineage, there is no knowing when it was assimilated. Considering Slavs entered those regions around Germany and Scandinavia hundreds of years prior to the Viking age, its possible the lineage was assimilated and moved as a non-slavic speaker. The idea that any haplogroup was only moving until industrialization with one language/culture is absolutely ludicrous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Vikings are not a people but a cultural type associated with raiding parties. Perhaps you meant to say Scando-Germanic or Scandinavian. Viking culture is not unique to Scandinavia. There were Finnish, Baltic and Slavic vikings.

    Additionally, regardless of the Slavic nature of the lineage, there is no knowing when it was assimilated. Considering Slavs entered those regions around Germany and Scandinavia hundreds of years prior to the Viking age, its possible the lineage was assimilated and moved as a non-slavic speaker. The idea that any haplogroup was only moving until industrialization with one language/culture is absolutely ludicrous.
    I mean it's possible that it came from Scandinavia, but you'd guess that they left their seed there too. There aren't really any native Y3120 downstreamers there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    I mean it's possible that it came from Scandinavia, but you'd guess that they left their seed there too. There aren't really any native Y3120 downstreamers there.

    Not necessarily saying it originated their, however old I2a1 was found in Motala/Sweden. Even though today all I2a1b in Scandinavians is from Proto-Slavs. Absence doesn't necessarily indicate it was never located there. A proto-Slav could have been assimilated through contacts with Scandinavians and Germans and later descendants moving with these lines under other cultures. Of course the I2a1/R1a vikings were heavily Polish like. Whilst not necessarily an indication of most Slavic like ancestry, its pretty obvious these were probably Rus in most cases. Rus Vikings were mixed with Slavs and some of the most in demand Varangians.

    It was only later that large amounts of the guard were sourced predominantly from Scandinavians, and Germans.

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    Gleb Svyatoslavovich is quite remote from mister Rurik.
    All that is known for sure about mister Rurik is that he came from Sweden and had Old Norse as mother tongue.
    Normally, he later learned East Slavic.
    If Rurik's Y DNA was some I2-a-din that does not proves he was not Swedish ethnic, it could bring more evidence that Goths did actually came from NW Poland and NE Germany and they migrated there from South Sweden.
    And Goths brought also I2-din and Dacians, which had also I2-din, were speaking East Germanic.
    Aromanians have at least 20% I2-din and Aromanians inter-married, they never mixed to Slavic ethnics, how can I2-din be present at Aromanians/Vlachs?
    Simple, from Dacians and Gothic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I2a1b is not Scandinavian. It is just as Slavic, if not moreso(in the case of medieval migrations) than R1a is. It was also during the Viking and later Varangian age, which was hundreds of years after these lineages expanded and were assimilated and moved again. Nothing is certain yet other than both supposed Rurikids belonging to assumingly Slavic clades of both I2 & R1a.
    I disagree with telling that I2-din is only Slavic.
    See that Aromanians also have significant I2-din and they never mixed to Slavic speaking ethnics.
    It must be from the Dacians and maybe Gothic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Not necessarily saying it originated their, however old I2a1 was found in Motala/Sweden. Even though today all I2a1b in Scandinavians is from Proto-Slavs. Absence doesn't necessarily indicate it was never located there. A proto-Slav could have been assimilated through contacts with Scandinavians and Germans and later descendants moving with these lines under other cultures. Of course the I2a1/R1a vikings were heavily Polish like. Whilst not necessarily an indication of most Slavic like ancestry, its pretty obvious these were probably Rus in most cases. Rus Vikings were mixed with Slavs and some of the most in demand Varangians.

    It was only later that large amounts of the guard were sourced predominantly from Scandinavians, and Germans.
    Proto-Slavs should have been some South Baltic tribe.
    They should have been different from the rest of Baltic-Slavic speakers by being more "Germanic-like" shifted as religion and customs.
    Normally, they should have also had a different language.
    For example, Slavs have also in their pagan religion a trickster god, as Loki is at Scandos (Veles).
    They also have the custom to burn a log on winter solstice.
    As Scandos have.
    Slavs also had a World Tree, in their pagan religion, as Scandos had:
    https://www.slavorum.org/world-tree-...ong-old-slavs/
    See, a lot of resemblances between ancient Slavs religion and Scandos religion.
    So one can suppose that ancient Slavs were between Baltic-Slavic speakers and North Germanic tribes, as ethnicity.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Proto-Slavs should have been some South Baltic tribe.
    They should have been different from the rest of Baltic-Slavic speakers by being more "Germanic-like" shifted as religion and customs.
    Normally, they should have also had a different language.
    For example, Slavs have also in their pagan religion a trickster god, as Loki is at Scandos (Veles).
    They also have the custom to burn a log on winter solstice.
    As Scandos have.
    Slavs also had a World Tree, in their pagan religion, as Scandos had:
    https://www.slavorum.org/world-tree-...ong-old-slavs/
    See, a lot of resemblances between ancient Slavs religion and Scandos religion.
    So one can suppose that ancient Slavs were between Baltic-Slavic speakers and North Germanic tribes, as ethnicity.
    Balts also have
    a trickster in Velnias
    custom to burn a log on winter solstice
    concept of world tree (as per Latvian folk songs)
    :)

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    Well it seems that Early East Slavs were quite allied to the Vikings, especially to the Swedish Vikings.
    Maybe Early East Slavs were not seeing the things regarding the ethnicity as we are seeing the things today.

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