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Thread: Balkan genetic influence in Slavic peoples

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    Balkan genetic influence in Slavic peoples

    I noticed that west and east Slavs(Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine etc) have a significant percentage of Balkans area in autosomally results.

    Since nobody goes to Belarus from Balkans at least not large groups of people(there is no historical record) my opinion is that they share common ancestors (I2a and part of R1a peoples) in a common old homeland, probably Carpathians and southern Poland, southwestern Ukraine (White Croatia) or Baltic, north Poland area(R1a).

    I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE. Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade,
    The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml

    We have some migrations in the Turkish period towards Carpathians but these are smaller Vlachs migrations and we have massive Croatian etc migrations to Hungary and Austria and for these countries we can assume that Balkans autosomality comes with these migrants but this has nothing to do with Lithuania or Russia.

    It would be an older autosomal connection, and that we can see and in autosomal percentage of Baltic area because no one from direction of Baltic comes to Slovenia or Croatia, it is probably connection in place where R1a Z280 peoples lived.

    • R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East Germany to Switzerland and Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    I noticed that west and east Slavs(Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Ukraine etc) have a significant percentage of Balkans area in autosomally results. Since nobody goes to Belarus from Balkans at least not large groups of people(there is no historical record) my opinion is that they share common ancestors (I2a and part of R1a peoples) in a common old homeland, probably Carpathians and southern Poland, southwestern Ukraine (White Croatia) or Baltic, north Poland area(R1a). https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...I2_Y-DNA.shtml We have some migrations in the Turkish period towards Carpathians but these are smaller Vlachs migrations and we have massive Croatian etc migrations to Hungary and Austria and for these countries we can assume that Balkans autosomality comes with these migrants but this has nothing to do with Lithuania or Russia. It would be an older autosomal connection, and that we can see and in autosomal percentage of Baltic area because no one from direction of Baltic comes to Slovenia or Croatia, it is probably connection in place where R1a Z280 peoples lived. https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
    The amount of the "Balkan ancestry" in populations depends on how one defines "Balkan ancestry".
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    The amount of the "Balkan ancestry" in populations depends on how one defines "Balkan ancestry".
    In my opinion this should indicate same origin, if that is true from where part of Russians etc are coming, from the Balkans? We have no written evidence of mass migration to Russia or Belarus, one explanation is that this is from an older common origin but not from the Balkans (if we follow migration of Y haplotypes).

    Here we have maps, "ethnicities around the world" from MyHeritage company in Croatian language.

    https://www.myheritage.com.hr/ethnic...t-country-list

    Here It can be seen that Greeks and Italians have a separate "Balkan ancestry" from Greece and Italian ancestry which probably means that this Balkan ancestry presents Slavic peoples of Balkans ie. some "other" genetic ancestry different from indigenous Balkan genetics.

    Here we no have Albanians but in public dna results Albanians are mostly under Greek ancestry, since they share common genetics and living area that's logical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    In my opinion this should indicate same origin, if that is true from where part of Russians etc are coming, from the Balkans? We have no written evidence of mass migration to Russia or Belarus, one explanation is that this is from an older common origin but not from the Balkans (if we follow migration of Y haplotypes).

    Here we have maps, "ethnicities around the world" from MyHeritage company in Croatian language.

    https://www.myheritage.com.hr/ethnic...t-country-list

    Here It can be seen that Greeks and Italians have a separate "Balkan ancestry" from Greece and Italian ancestry which probably means that this Balkan ancestry presents Slavic peoples of Balkans ie. some "other" genetic ancestry different from indigenous Balkan genetics.

    Here we no have Albanians but in public dna results Albanians are mostly under Greek ancestry, since they share common genetics and living area that's logical.
    People from that company do not understand what the term "ethnicity" means.

    This is the text in Croatian from their page:

    Balkanci etnička pripadnost uobičajena je u sljedećim zemljama, prema svim podacima korisnika MyHeritage DNK.
    Translated:

    Balkanians as an ethnicity is usual in the following countries, according to the data of the users of MyHeritage DNK.

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    Yes, I estimate Polish Corded Ware as a major contributor to Iron Age West Balkanic, and Iron Age West Balkanic (rather than prior West Balkanic) as a significant contributor to Slavic.

    My guess would be that early Southern Poles were pushed South West, then their admixed descendants gradually merged back Northwards again.

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    According to their web site Lithuania is 30% "balkanic". Does it makes any sense? Something is obviously wrong with their definition of the "Balkan" component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    People from that company do not understand what the term "ethnicity" means.

    This is the text in Croatian from their page:



    Translated:



    It is now called "Balkan ancestry" maybe tomorrow would be called different, It is important that this(Balkan ancestry)points to common origin, just as Croats and Slovenes have Eastern Europe or Baltic, these are older links that are probably from the old homeland. We do not coming from Baltic but older genetics in Croatians or Slovens have something to do with Baltic.

    I agree that this company do not understand what the term "ethnicity" means but for now we have to use their data. They only detected common "Balkan ancestry" but it's up to us to give an explanation why it is so.

    My explanation is a common old homeland, maybe someone has another conclusion. In any case we will know more in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    It is now called "Balkan ancestry" maybe tomorrow would be called different, It is important that this(Balkan ancestry)points to common origin, just as Croats and Slovenes have Eastern Europe or Baltic, these are older links that are probably from the old homeland. We do not coming from Baltic but older genetics in Croatians or Slovens have something to do with Baltic. I agree that this company do not understand what the term "ethnicity" means but for now we have to use their data. They only detected common "Balkan ancestry" but it's up to us to give an explanation why it is so. My explanation is a common old homeland, maybe someone has another conclusion. In any case we will know more in the future.
    I am afraid that they defined "Balkan ancestry" as the sum of all present day samples from the region they believe is called "Balkan". That includes Slovenians and Croats which are genetically closer to other Slavs than to e. g. Greeks and Albanians. We should not take their terminology for granted. Their "Balkan ancestry" has obviously nothing to do with the paleobalkan ancestry from the times before Great migration period.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 20-07-19 at 16:05.

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    The latest study about the Scythians claims that the people of Chernyakhiv culture were Balkan like. As it spread also to Ukraine and part of Belarus that could be the source of "Balkan" among West and East Slavs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture

    https://www.cell.com/current-biology...qdiDfw9pxzXa6A

    The PC plot of the samples of this study together with published Scythian and Sarmatian and related ancient samples (
    Table S3) projected onto a background of modern populations (for which only the median coordinates are shown; Figure 2) revealed that ancient samples generally did not overlap with modern variation. Although the ScySar_SU samples (except one) and the single Caucasus Sarmatian clustered rather compactly together with Scythian and Sarmatian samples from several studies [1
    , 3
    , 16
    ] and the Ukrainian Bronze Age samples positioned just outside modern European variation, the Ukrainian Scythians formed a cline between these two groups. Compared to other groups, Scy_Kaz were more spread out (likely partially due to the very low coverage of two of the Scy_Kaz samples) and drawn toward East Asian populations, although they still positioned “west” of the Central Saka [1
    ]—despite originating from neighboring burial mounds of the same Tasmola culture—and most of the Eastern Scythians [3
    ], who are themselves a very heterogeneous group both culturally and genetically. On the other hand, the Chernyakhiv samples overlapped with modern Europeans, representing the most “western” range of variation among the groups of this study (Figure 2).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    I am afraid that they defined "Balkan ancestry" as the sum of all present day samples from the region they believe is called "Balkan". That includes Slovenians and Croats which are genetically closer to other Slavs then to e. g. Greeks and Albanians. We should not take their terminology for granted. Their "Balkan ancestry" has obviously nothing to do with the paleobalkan ancestry from the times before Great migration period.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about, I think that most of "Balkan ancestry" actually speaking about common genetics of south Slavs which they share with West and East Slavs not about "paleobalkan ancestry"

    Maybe in the future that "Balkan ancesty" be divided or renamed and then we'll be smarter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The latest study about the Scythians claims that the people of Chernyakhiv culture were Balkan like. As it spread also to Ukraine and part of Belarus that could be the source of "Balkan" among West and East Slavs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture
    That is possible, however it seems that 30% of Chernyakhiv in Lithuanians would be too much. It is more likely that 30% of "Balkan like" ancestry in Lithuanians and >50% in Belarussians are actually the Slavic ancestries currently present in South Slavs especially in Croats and Slovenians.

    Obviously their "Balkan ancestry" is too much northern shifted comparing to present day Greeks and Albanians to be taken literaly as Balkan. IMO, it is more about what they put in the basket called "Balkan ancestry" than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    The latest study about the Scythians claims that the people of Chernyakhiv culture were Balkan like. As it spread also to Ukraine and part of Belarus that could be the source of "Balkan" among West and East Slavs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture

    https://www.cell.com/current-biology...qdiDfw9pxzXa6A

    The PC plot of the samples of this study together with published Scythian and Sarmatian and related ancient samples (
    Table S3) projected onto a background of modern populations (for which only the median coordinates are shown; Figure 2) revealed that ancient samples generally did not overlap with modern variation. Although the ScySar_SU samples (except one) and the single Caucasus Sarmatian clustered rather compactly together with Scythian and Sarmatian samples from several studies [1
    , 3
    , 16
    ] and the Ukrainian Bronze Age samples positioned just outside modern European variation, the Ukrainian Scythians formed a cline between these two groups. Compared to other groups, Scy_Kaz were more spread out (likely partially due to the very low coverage of two of the Scy_Kaz samples) and drawn toward East Asian populations, although they still positioned “west” of the Central Saka [1
    ]—despite originating from neighboring burial mounds of the same Tasmola culture—and most of the Eastern Scythians [3
    ], who are themselves a very heterogeneous group both culturally and genetically. On the other hand, the Chernyakhiv samples overlapped with modern Europeans, representing the most “western” range of variation among the groups of this study (Figure 2).
    Now is a question with which samples they do comparing. From western Balkans we have couple archaeogenetic data, from Bulgaria and Romania we have more. I also see that and in new paper
    Viking world population genomics
    peoples from the 11th century or that time have a certain percentage of "Balkan ancestry". On the basis of what they concluded this when we do not have a single sample from the 11th century on the Balkans with which they could make a comparison and in west Balkans we only have a couple of older arheogenetic data.

    71.1% Poland, 24.6% ↑ Balkan, 1% ↓ Baltic
    It is person from Kiev area, Ukraine, and he has I2a I-Y3120.

    Balkan influence is always possible(some older connection) but which Balkans peoples migrate to the area of northern Ukraine, from where and when?

    Archeogenetic data that I know do not indicate massive migration from Balkans to that area.

    Let somebody correct me but I think that this autosomal results is based on living genetics, it means that this comparison is with today's people from the Balkans or they used outdated scientific papers as they often does.

    I don't see how else they would come to the conclusion that somebody from north Ukraine in 11th century has 24,6% of "Balkan ancestry".
    Last edited by hrvat22; 20-07-19 at 22:32.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    That is possible, however it seems that 30% of Chernyakhiv in Lithuanians would be too much. It is more likely that 30% of "Balkan like" ancestry in Lithuanians and >50% in Belarussians are actually the Slavic ancestries currently present in South Slavs especially in Croats and Slovenians.

    Obviously their "Balkan ancestry" is too much northern shifted comparing to present day Greeks and Albanians to be taken literaly as Balkan. IMO, it is more about what they put in the basket called "Balkan ancestry" than anything else.

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