Genetic study iron age tocharian DNA

Interesting, do you know the age and location?

Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

See:
https://www.academia.edu/20286495/S..._in_the_Carpathian_foothill_and_upland_region

Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd


Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69, 90, 93].
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083

The most mobile members of their society were the women.

There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

All of that stuff is much later.
 
PIE mark?

2nd person in Wall painting of "Tocharian Princes" from Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers:
qizildonors.jpg

qizildonors.jpg
QizilDonors.jpg


MeRHpLd.jpg


okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:
Typological-chronology-of-the-Okunevo.png


kalash mark:
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/la-1223-pin06-970x500.jpg

sunmark is also tocharian tradition?

by the way, yamna people arrived at altai and changed their burial tradition.

Burials in both the xiaohe and the gumugou cemetery were fairly heterogeneous, and the clay-lid wooden coffins in the xiaohe cemetery and the sun-radiating-spokes burials in the gumugou cemetery only took up in a small percentage of each cemetery.The sun-radiating-spokes burials share some features with a similar type of grave, constructed of circular stone kerbs of the stone-pit graves.
........
The sun-radiating-spokes burials might represent an adaption to the local desert environment, which had better access to wood rather than stones. Circular stone kerbs with stone-pit in centre were widely seen in Bronze Age Afanasievo and Andronovo burials, and also in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age burials along the Tian Shan. The present study suggests a high possibility that the six males buried in the sun-radiating-spokes graves came from the contemporary parallel Andronovo horizon, and kept some of their own ancestry memories in an adapted way.
xinjiang-afanasievo-andronovo-bmac-tian-shan.jpg
 
Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

See:
https://www.academia.edu/20286495/S..._in_the_Carpathian_foothill_and_upland_region

Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd


Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69, 90, 93].
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155083

The most mobile members of their society were the women.

There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

All of that stuff is much later.

Thank you for your perspective and valuable unbiased input. Very interesting.
 
R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!
The complete set of aligned Y SNP calls from the Tianshan individuals:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ecXQf2gRYNfMELt4H5lYuN5G9NXXIWTAhscqvfOPR0/edit?usp=sharing
• M15-2: R-PH200
https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH200/
• MO12: R-PH155
https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH155/
• M15-1: Q-M120
https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M120/
• X3: Q-F5400
https://yfull.com/tree/Q-F5400/
R-PH200 under R-PH155 was found in a supposed "Gepid" (VIM_2, ERS2374341 on the YFull tree) from Serbia from the 6th century CE with an artificially deformed skull who was autosomally at least 20% East Asian, and therefore likely a Hun or with a Hun father, and also a Tian Shan Hun from Uzbekistan from about the year 260 CE. Both Q-M120 and Q-F5400 are East Asian.
Autosomally, these 4 individuals from China are substantially East Asian.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/they-mixed-up-tocharians-with-huns.html
This raises some interesting questions about the origins of this earliest branch of R1b, which doesn't appear to have migrated westward from the R* homeland until historic period. The first westward movement of R1b appears to have taken place after the LGM, not before 17,100 ybp, and likely later after the Bolling Interstadial ("the End of the Ice Age") at 14,700 ybp.
https://yfull.com/tree/R1b/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...BNZwpQ5RfL8jboCzUsBkxUJplTg9BQiKsYfDR4c#gid=0
 
if these samples are really Huns, then the dating and the location suggests a link between Xiongnu and Huns

is there DNA available from Xiongnu/Huns to compare with these samples?
 
^^^

As far as I know, Xungnu has not deformed skull culture like Hun.

The Xungnu has 2 type of skulls, mongoloid and paleo-type like jomon or polynesian or american indian. The latter is called as xungnu turk by anthro scholar, which is connected to chandman skull like blackfoot american indian at the late bronze age of west mongolia.
This kind of skull cannot be made by bronze age skull like afanasievo or yamna (gracile CM), whatever their gene have steppe admixture.

Moreover Xungnu has typical step tomb as I called upside-down pyramid, being different from this R1b tomb.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33257-upside-down-pyramids

Thus, if Xungnu had R1b, the R1b would have something to do with the following R1b anthropologically:

http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/180909134059b429e3c3e0b7a2.jpg.thumb.jpg
http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/18090913406bf47745e1a5b03e.jpg.thumb.jpg

Molecular evidences of paleogeographical ancestry of neolithic proto-mongolians and their craniofacial reconstruction

Abstract

To give thumbnail sketch of genetic lineage, physical appearance and dietary life of Neolithic proto-Mongolians, two individuals excavated in Dunguljin, Dornod, Eastern Mongolia and Shatar chuluu, Bayankhongor, Western Mongolia were examined for haplotypes/haplogroups of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome, craniofacial features and carbon/nitrogen stable isotopic signatures. Physical anthropological analysis revealed that Eastern and Western individuals were Mongoloid and Caucasoid, respectively, and were all males by amelogenin-based sex determination. Eastern individual belonged to mtDNA haplogroup D4e5b and Y haplogroup C2 whereas Western individual was affiliated to mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1a and Y haplogroup R1b, indicating that Eastern and Western individuals had Mongoloid and Caucasoid origins given their patrilineal and matrilineal lineages. In addition, HIrisplex estimation for alleles of pigment-associated SNP markers showed that both individuals had brown eyes, black hair and light brown skin. Interestingly, combining results of HIrisplex estimations and computerized 3D modelling based craniofacial reconstruction, Western proto-Mongolian revealed mixed physical appearance between Mongoloid and Caucasoid, although his patrilineal and matrilineal origins were all Caucasoid. His brown eyes and black hair may imply that alleles of genes determining eye and hair colors were not mutated to reveal light-colored eyes and hair in Neolithic proto-Mongolians. Carbon and nitrogen stable isotopic values of bone collagen were -16.6‰ and 12.8‰ in Eastern Mongoloid and -18.6‰ and 11.3‰ in Western Caucasoid, respectively. This may indicate that the staple diets of Neolithic proto-Mongolians consisted of C3/C4 mixed plant foods with small proportion of C4, mainly millet, and high amount of meat sources, presumably including freshwater fishes. This investigation clearly indicates that Eastern and Western parts of the Mongolian Plateau were occupied by individuals with Mongoloid and Caucasoid genetic lineages, respectively, but were not mixed in their genetic makeups. However, difference of their physical appearance was not so apparent compared to that in modern Asian and European.

Open Access http://www.riss.kr/link?id=T14428880
http://www.ranhaer.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=38530&extra=page=1
 
R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!

Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg

Kushan ruler:
Coin_of_Heraios.jpg


Xoungnu:
554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg


Ephthalites (white Hun)
d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg

c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg


https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early China/Hist 387_2.htm

jadeservant.jpg

Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/
 
Last edited:
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg

Kushan ruler:
Coin_of_Heraios.jpg


Xoungnu:
554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg


Ephthalites (white Hun)
d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg

c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg


https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early China/Hist 387_2.htm

jadeservant.jpg

Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/

looks like ancient people at that area had unbalanced skull with big nose:

Arkaim idol in sintashta culture:
http://www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org/theearth/oct12/arkaim-8.jpg

Interesting thing is seima turbino had the same idol like Arkaim idol:
http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf (page 20)
 
Last edited:
According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".
 
According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".

1920px-Tocharian_languages.svg.png


They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
That
ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
*ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *d
Typically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i
 
1920px-Tocharian_languages.svg.png


They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
That
ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
*ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *d
Typically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i

Tocharians actually called their language ārśi (ārśi-käntu "Ārśi language"), it probably related to aryan, ancient Persian also called their language ariya. It is from proto-IE *ar- "free, noble", cognate with Hittite arawa "free, noble". -śi is a suffix in Tocharian: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol_printable/tokol
 
I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.
 
I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.
It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).
 
It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).

tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
according to what I read, it was unsure.
 
tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
according to what I read, it was unsure.

It is not important that the word Tukri is similar to Tochari, the important point is that names of some Tukri kings sound Tocharian. Of course Old Chinese Tokʷar and Old Persian Tuxari are important, the second one shows the original name was Tukri, because kr consonant cluster could be just changed to xr/xar in Iranian and the first one shows a similar name existed as far as China, we read about Tukri in Elamite and Sumero-Akkadian sources in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC.
 
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki

Kushan ruler:
Coin_of_Heraios.jpg


Xoungnu:
554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg
According to another research, Tianshan Hun and west xoungnu also have afanasievo admixture(????).
Likewise, modern south asian also possibly don't have bronze-age steppe admixture.

However, important thing is they have both east and west gene like ANE. So ancient people skulls over there make people confusing. By anthro data, UP type chandman skull at west mongolia clusters with Xoungnu and american Indian. They seems to be intermediate like okunevo skull to connected to american indian.


afanasevo-namazga-devils-gate-xiongnu-huns-tianshan-admixture.png


Inland-coastal bifurcation of southern East Asians revealed by Hmong-Mien genomic history, by Xia et al. bioRxiv (2019).
 
Regarding the tianshan(Shirenzigou) people origin, Hun(R1b2-PH155) Huns, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

By wiki
Yueh-ChihMigrations.jpg

Kushan ruler:
Coin_of_Heraios.jpg


Xoungnu:
554c08b669356782031d648e858a4791.jpg


Ephthalites (white Hun)
d0e840b4bb02f2229d897d224559f388.jpg

c4863b2e9f38dc1f0c75ccb110295f67.jpg


https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-soma-we-became-immortal-/

maybe connected to china brzone also:
Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early China/Hist 387_2.htm

jadeservant.jpg

Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

vs

804f5b22b8842eaed267e28b91dcf969.jpg

https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/

anthropologically paleo skull, genetically paleo Hg

Y chromosome haplogroup assignments of Shirenzigou samples:
SRZ_M15-1: R1b2b2 - Y92825
SRZ_M012: R1b2 - B1/BY14364/BY14573/BY14586/PH491/Y141794
SRZ_X3: Q1a2a2b1 - F4917/F4956
SRZ_M15-2: Q1a1a - F4734/F750/Y693
SRZ_M8R1: O - CTS7553/M1759
SRZ_M4: R1a1a1b - F3044

according to anthrogenica
 
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

Not all.

I am a Mongolian born R1b-PH155

We're still around.
 
Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.


maybe connected to china brzone also:
Gold_Mask_%28黄金面罩%29.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasim/Early China/Hist 387_2.htm

these were probably descendants from Tibeto-Burman Baodun farmers cultivating 'wet rice'
any clue from where the metallurgy came ?
 

This thread has been viewed 26297 times.

Back
Top