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Thread: iron age tocharian DNA

  1. #26
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    ^^^

    As far as I know, Xungnu has not deformed skull culture like Hun.

    The Xungnu has 2 type of skulls, mongoloid and paleo-type like jomon or polynesian or american indian. The latter is called as xungnu turk by anthro scholar, which is connected to chandman skull like blackfoot american indian at the late bronze age of west mongolia.
    This kind of skull cannot be made by bronze age skull like afanasievo or yamna (gracile CM), whatever their gene have steppe admixture.

    Moreover Xungnu has typical step tomb as I called upside-down pyramid, being different from this R1b tomb.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-down-pyramids

    Thus, if Xungnu had R1b, the R1b would have something to do with the following R1b anthropologically:

    http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachme....jpg.thumb.jpg
    http://www.ranhaer.org/data/attachme....jpg.thumb.jpg

    Molecular evidences of paleogeographical ancestry of neolithic proto-mongolians and their craniofacial reconstruction

    Abstract

    To give thumbnail sketch of genetic lineage, physical appearance and dietary life of Neolithic proto-Mongolians, two individuals excavated in Dunguljin, Dornod, Eastern Mongolia and Shatar chuluu, Bayankhongor, Western Mongolia were examined for haplotypes/haplogroups of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome, craniofacial features and carbon/nitrogen stable isotopic signatures. Physical anthropological analysis revealed that Eastern and Western individuals were Mongoloid and Caucasoid, respectively, and were all males by amelogenin-based sex determination. Eastern individual belonged to mtDNA haplogroup D4e5b and Y haplogroup C2 whereas Western individual was affiliated to mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1a and Y haplogroup R1b, indicating that Eastern and Western individuals had Mongoloid and Caucasoid origins given their patrilineal and matrilineal lineages. In addition, HIrisplex estimation for alleles of pigment-associated SNP markers showed that both individuals had brown eyes, black hair and light brown skin. Interestingly, combining results of HIrisplex estimations and computerized 3D modelling based craniofacial reconstruction, Western proto-Mongolian revealed mixed physical appearance between Mongoloid and Caucasoid, although his patrilineal and matrilineal origins were all Caucasoid. His brown eyes and black hair may imply that alleles of genes determining eye and hair colors were not mutated to reveal light-colored eyes and hair in Neolithic proto-Mongolians. Carbon and nitrogen stable isotopic values of bone collagen were -16.6‰ and 12.8‰ in Eastern Mongoloid and -18.6‰ and 11.3‰ in Western Caucasoid, respectively. This may indicate that the staple diets of Neolithic proto-Mongolians consisted of C3/C4 mixed plant foods with small proportion of C4, mainly millet, and high amount of meat sources, presumably including freshwater fishes. This investigation clearly indicates that Eastern and Western parts of the Mongolian Plateau were occupied by individuals with Mongoloid and Caucasoid genetic lineages, respectively, but were not mixed in their genetic makeups. However, difference of their physical appearance was not so apparent compared to that in modern Asian and European.

    Open Access http://www.riss.kr/link?id=T14428880
    http://www.ranhaer.org/forum.php?mod...extra=page%3D1

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
    No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!
    Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
    Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
    As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

    By wiki

    Kushan ruler:


    Xoungnu:


    Ephthalites (white Hun)



    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-s...ame-immortal-/

    maybe connected to china brzone also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
    https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasi...st%20387_2.htm


    Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

    http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

    vs


    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/
    Last edited by johen; 01-08-19 at 07:49.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
    Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
    As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

    By wiki

    Kushan ruler:


    Xoungnu:


    Ephthalites (white Hun)



    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-s...ame-immortal-/

    maybe connected to china brzone also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
    https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasi...st%20387_2.htm


    Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

    http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

    vs


    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/
    looks like ancient people at that area had unbalanced skull with big nose:

    Arkaim idol in sintashta culture:
    http://www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org...2/arkaim-8.jpg

    Interesting thing is seima turbino had the same idol like Arkaim idol:
    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf (page 20)
    Last edited by johen; 06-08-19 at 21:00.

  4. #29
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    According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    According to Sumero-Akkadian sources, the original land of Tocharian was Tukri (Tukrish) in the north of Parhasi (Persia) and east of Guti, so it was probably in the center or east of Iran, it is believed that the name of Tajrish (Tehran) relates to them, the names ancient Tukri kings have Tocharian origin, for example Kikla-palli (Tocharian kokle-walli) means "the king of chariot".


    They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
    I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
    That
    ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
    *ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *d
    Typically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post


    They should have sampled that region first during the 6th to 8th century AD and then make speculations about the migration.
    I think one word used to refer to themselves in their texts is ārśi.
    That
    ś sound can descend, as far as I understand, from the sounds that are reconstructed traditionally as
    *ǵʰ, *gʰ, *gʷʰ and *d
    Typically it is assumed that the toponym Agni is related to that. In Chinese it's ~Yen-ch’i
    Tocharians actually called their language ārśi (ārśi-käntu "Ārśi language"), it probably related to aryan, ancient Persian also called their language ariya. It is from proto-IE *ar- "free, noble", cognate with Hittite arawa "free, noble". -śi is a suffix in Tocharian: https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol_printable/tokol

  7. #32
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I wonder if I did not read that Tokharian was an inaccurate ame for Agni-Kuchi, these IE last ones living very later and the former name concerning perhaps another ethnic group. Just to answer to the etymologic proposition of Cyrus.
    It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is really doesn't matter what Tocharians called themselves in 8th century AD, the oldest name is Sumero-Akkadian Tukri, Ancient Greek Tókharoi, Old Persian Tuxāri, Sanskrit Tukhāra and Old Chinese Tokʷar. The name is too old that we see proto-Iranan Spirantization (k>x).
    tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
    according to what I read, it was unsure.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    tHE QUESTION REMAINS/ IS THIS NAME TUKRI APPLIED TO THE REAL ANCESTORS OF THE AGNI-KUCHI OF OUR ERA speaking these I-E languages?
    according to what I read, it was unsure.
    It is not important that the word Tukri is similar to Tochari, the important point is that names of some Tukri kings sound Tocharian. Of course Old Chinese Tokʷar and Old Persian Tuxari are important, the second one shows the original name was Tukri, because kr consonant cluster could be just changed to xr/xar in Iranian and the first one shows a similar name existed as far as China, we read about Tukri in Elamite and Sumero-Akkadian sources in the second half of the 3rd millennium BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Regarding the tianshan people origin, Hun, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
    Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
    As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

    By wiki

    Kushan ruler:


    Xoungnu:
    According to another research, Tianshan Hun and west xoungnu also have afanasievo admixture(????).
    Likewise, modern south asian also possibly don't have bronze-age steppe admixture.

    However, important thing is they have both east and west gene like ANE. So ancient people skulls over there make people confusing. By anthro data, UP type chandman skull at west mongolia clusters with Xoungnu and american Indian. They seems to be intermediate like okunevo skull to connected to american indian.




    Inland-coastal bifurcation of southern East Asians revealed by Hmong-Mien genomic history, by Xia et al. bioRxiv (2019).

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Regarding the tianshan(Shirenzigou) people origin, Hun(R1b2-PH155) Huns, white Hun, Yuezhi, and Xioungnu have been mentioned in other forums.
    Looks like they were same paleo-type people , even if their Hg and spoken languages would be different.
    As mentioned before, this kind of paleo skull people lived at west mongolia (including altai) even at the late bronze age, being different from modern mongol and modern caucasoid. They all disappeared.

    By wiki

    Kushan ruler:


    Xoungnu:


    Ephthalites (white Hun)



    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-s...ame-immortal-/

    maybe connected to china brzone also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui
    https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~inaasi...st%20387_2.htm


    Qin shihuang vs white hun ruler:

    http://www2.oberlin.edu/images/Art250/05-0001.JPG

    vs


    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/riders-lost-in-the-himalayas/
    anthropologically paleo skull, genetically paleo Hg

    Y chromosome haplogroup assignments of Shirenzigou samples:
    SRZ_M15-1: R1b2b2 - Y92825
    SRZ_M012: R1b2 - B1/BY14364/BY14573/BY14586/PH491/Y141794
    SRZ_X3: Q1a2a2b1 - F4917/F4956
    SRZ_M15-2: Q1a1a - F4734/F750/Y693
    SRZ_M8R1: O - CTS7553/M1759
    SRZ_M4: R1a1a1b - F3044

    according to anthrogenica

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