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Thread: iron age tocharian DNA

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    iron age tocharian DNA

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...AzvpGJWElcRIoc

    Ancient Genomes Reveal Yamnaya-Related Ancestry and a Potential Source of Indo-European Speakers in Iron Age Tianshan
    Article (PDF Available) · July 2019 with 29 Reads
    Cite this publication
    Chao Ning
    15.81Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
    Chuan-Chao Wang
    34.93Xiamen University
    + 9
    Shizhu Gao
    Yang Yang
    Show more authors
    Abstract
    Recent studies of early Bronze Age human ge- nomes revealed a massive population expansion by individuals-related to the Yamnaya culture, from the Pontic Caspian steppe into Western and Eastern Eurasia, likely accompanied by the spread of Indo-European languages [1–5]. The south eastern extent of this migration is currently not known. Modern-day human populations from the Xinjiang region in northwestern China show a com- plex population history, with genetic links to both Eastern and Western Eurasia [6–10]. However, due to the lack of ancient genomic data, it remains unclear which source populations contributed to the Xinjiang population and what was the timing and the number of admixture events. Here, we report the first genome-wide data of 10 ancient in- dividuals from northeastern Xinjiang. They are dated to around 2,200 years ago and were found at the Iron Age Shirenzigou site. We find them to be already genetically admixed between Eastern and Western Eurasians. We also find that the ma- jority of the East Eurasian ancestry in the Shirenzi- gou individuals is-related to northeastern Asian populations, while the West Eurasian ancestry is best presented by $20% to 80% Yamnaya-like ancestry. Our data thus suggest a Western Eurasian steppe origin for at least part of the ancient Xinjiang population. Our findings further- more support a Yamnaya-related origin for the now extinct Tocharian languages in the Tarim Ba- sin, in southern Xinjiang

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...AzvpGJWElcRIoc

    Ancient Genomes Reveal Yamnaya-Related Ancestry and a Potential Source of Indo-European Speakers in Iron Age Tianshan
    Article (PDF Available) · July 2019 with 29 Reads
    Cite this publication
    Chao Ning
    15.81Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
    Chuan-Chao Wang
    34.93Xiamen University
    + 9
    Shizhu Gao
    Yang Yang
    Show more authors
    Abstract
    Recent studies of early Bronze Age human ge- nomes revealed a massive population expansion by individuals-related to the Yamnaya culture, from the Pontic Caspian steppe into Western and Eastern Eurasia, likely accompanied by the spread of Indo-European languages [1–5]. The south eastern extent of this migration is currently not known. Modern-day human populations from the Xinjiang region in northwestern China show a com- plex population history, with genetic links to both Eastern and Western Eurasia [6–10]. However, due to the lack of ancient genomic data, it remains unclear which source populations contributed to the Xinjiang population and what was the timing and the number of admixture events. Here, we report the first genome-wide data of 10 ancient in- dividuals from northeastern Xinjiang. They are dated to around 2,200 years ago and were found at the Iron Age Shirenzigou site. We find them to be already genetically admixed between Eastern and Western Eurasians. We also find that the ma- jority of the East Eurasian ancestry in the Shirenzi- gou individuals is-related to northeastern Asian populations, while the West Eurasian ancestry is best presented by $20% to 80% Yamnaya-like ancestry. Our data thus suggest a Western Eurasian steppe origin for at least part of the ancient Xinjiang population. Our findings further- more support a Yamnaya-related origin for the now extinct Tocharian languages in the Tarim Ba- sin, in southern Xinjiang
    Any Y-DNA reads?

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    I saw it in Eurogenes...R1b and Q.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Fascinating stuff, Bicicleur. Thanks.


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    The samples are not from the 'Tocharian' speaking area.

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    Our results suggest that the Yamnaya and/or Afanasievo-relatedancestry expanded further south through the Dzungarian Basininto the northern slope of the Tianshan Mountains in Xinjiangsince at least the second millennium BCE and thus support the‘‘Steppe hypothesis’’ for the early peopling of Xinjiang.
    their samples are only 2200 years old
    and they conclude about an expansion more than 3000 years old?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Our results suggest that the Yamnaya and/or Afanasievo-relatedancestry expanded further south through the Dzungarian Basininto the northern slope of the Tianshan Mountains in Xinjiangsince at least the second millennium BCE and thus support the‘‘Steppe hypothesis’’ for the early peopling of Xinjiang.
    their samples are only 2200 years old
    and they conclude about an expansion more than 3000 years old?
    ya, it is a problem to connect the samples to afanasievo expansion and even tocharian. As Mallory said in his cloud paper, the afanasievo culture has not any cereal samples, while tocharian has farming language. Moreover, if afanasievo expanded, the afanasievo culture could be found in northern china as okunevo petroglyph in there.

    However, it is possible of the R1b samples to originate in afanasievo. We already have pontic scythian paper that the scythian R1b is close to afanasievo, not yamna. So the R1b people seems to be related with tianshan Hun or saka.

    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/p...g_Figure2a.jpg

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ya, it is a problem to connect the samples to afanasievo expansion and even tocharian. As Mallory said in his cloud paper, the afanasievo culture has not any cereal samples, while tocharian has farming language. Moreover, if afanasievo expanded, the afanasievo culture could be found in northern china as okunevo petroglyph in there.
    However, it is possible of the R1b samples to originate in afanasievo. We already have pontic scythian paper that the scythian R1b is close to afanasievo, not yamna. So the R1b people seems to be related with tianshan Hun or saka.
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/p...g_Figure2a.jpg
    the Y-DNA is R1b-M269, possibly Z2103
    and autosomal it is lacking EEF, just like Yamna, but unlike Sintashta or Andronovo

    their Yamna ancestry is very likely
    the question is, how do they know these people were already in the Shirenzigou area in the 2nd millenium BC?
    Last edited by bicicleur; 28-07-19 at 07:58.

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    Migration of R1b and Q1a1b from North? Just how did M15-1 and M15-2 acquire so much Yamnaya component even after . 3300 to 2500 BC?

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post




    Migration of R1b and Q1a1b from North? Just how did M15-1 and M15-2 acquire so much Yamnaya component even after . 3300 to 2500 BC?
    check the location of Shirenzigou
    via the Dzungarian Basin it is connected to the Altaï steppe
    it is north of the Gobi desert which seperates it from the Gansu corridor and China proper

    maybe they were an Afanasievo/Okunovo or even Yamna/Okunovo mixture,
    fugitives for incoming Andronovo

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    check the location of Shirenzigou
    via the Dzungarian Basin it is connected to the Altaï steppe
    it is north of the Gobi desert which seperates it from the Gansu corridor and China proper

    maybe they were an Afanasievo/Okunovo or even Yamna/Okunovo mixture,
    fugitives for incoming Andronovo


    A prime piece of real estate with connection to the steppe. You would think there would be plenty of chariot and horse burials like Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE in an expansion 1000 years prior.
    The samples look like they were taken nearly around the center of Tocharian A and Tocharian B languages, were spoken. I have really no clue about where the ydna Q samples originate. What branch the R1b samples fall under?


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    Z2103, most likely. The haplogroup listed is M269, not very helpful.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    first people in the Tarim Basin periphery oasises arrived ca 4 ka

    map.jpg

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    The samples are not from the 'Tocharian' speaking area.
    What's the Tocharian speaking area? Were you there? Maybe you're not a real Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post


    A prime piece of real estate with connection to the steppe. You would think there would be plenty of chariot and horse burials like Sintashta-Arkaim culture 2100–1800 BCE in an expansion 1000 years prior.
    The samples look like they were taken nearly around the center of Tocharian A and Tocharian B languages, were spoken. I have really no clue about where the ydna Q samples originate. What branch the R1b samples fall under?

    The culture arrived at china bronze with tons of PIE, penetrating the tocharian zone and gansu corridor.
    As Karl zettmar said, okunevo petroglyph was already found in northern china and even near IVC.

    Unfortunately, the carrier of the culture seems to be Q by Karasuk or unstoppable seima turbino.
    And they created civilization like maya civilization, hence, Harvard scholar K. C. Chang mentioned that chinese and mayan people would have same ancestor. Same thing happened in Vedic civilization.

    So chinese scholar should focus upon their bronze age culture to solve IE migration. Furthermore I always think that it is very wrong to seperate ancient people in central asia into west or east eurasian people like modern people by modern genetic tool. Does modern scholar know how they classified themselves?

    soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis.
    http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.mano...n2-145-162.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    The culture arrived at china bronze with tons of PIE, penetrating the tocharian zone and gansu corridor.
    As Karl zettmar said, okunevo petroglyph was already found in northern china and even near IVC.

    Unfortunately, the carrier of the culture seems to be Q by Karasuk or unstoppable seima turbino.
    And they created civilization like maya civilization, hence, Harvard scholar K. C. Chang mentioned that chinese and mayan people would have same ancestor. Same thing happened in Vedic civilization.

    So chinese scholar should focus upon their bronze age culture to solve IE migration. Furthermore I always think that it is very wrong to seperate ancient people in central asia into west or east eurasian people like modern people by modern genetic tool. Does modern scholar know how they classified themselves?


    http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.mano...n2-145-162.pdf
    . They did not find wheeled chariots at the site they gathered R 1b samples.However the Tocharians had a word for wheel/wagons concept. Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    . They did not find wheeled chariots at the site they gathered R 1b samples.However the Tocharians had a word for wheel/wagons concept. Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.
    Perhaps, but not always, I think, pulled by horses. Weren't there a few papers that found a lot of Corded Ware carts were pulled by cows or oxen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps, but not always, I think, pulled by horses. Weren't there a few papers that found a lot of Corded Ware carts were pulled by cows or oxen?
    Interesting, do you know the age and location?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    . Yamnaya-/Afansievo must have had wagons even prior to 5000YBP or 1000 years before Sintashta +/-. to travel the great distances as steppe pastoralists.
    I think we already discussed in the thread of Caucasus paper that yamna people was not mobile, but wagon burial was just a elite culture by archaeology. Moreover, no wagon was found in afanasievo, but elongated skull elite culture like catacomb, scythian, samartian, and hun.

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    PIE mark?

    2nd person in Wall painting of "Tocharian Princes" from Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers:





    okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:


    kalash mark:
    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-...06-970x500.jpg

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Interesting, do you know the age and location?
    Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

    Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

    See:
    https://www.academia.edu/20286495/So..._upland_region

    Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

    This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd


    Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
    Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
    Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69, 90, 93].
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0155083

    The most mobile members of their society were the women.

    There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

    As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


    It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

    Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

    All of that stuff is much later.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    PIE mark?

    2nd person in Wall painting of "Tocharian Princes" from Cave of the Sixteen Sword-Bearers:





    okunevo symbol at the bottom of pottery:


    kalash mark:
    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/wp-...06-970x500.jpg

    sunmark is also tocharian tradition?

    by the way, yamna people arrived at altai and changed their burial tradition.

    Burials in both the xiaohe and the gumugou cemetery were fairly heterogeneous, and the clay-lid wooden coffins in the xiaohe cemetery and the sun-radiating-spokes burials in the gumugou cemetery only took up in a small percentage of each cemetery.The sun-radiating-spokes burials share some features with a similar type of grave, constructed of circular stone kerbs of the stone-pit graves.
    ........
    The sun-radiating-spokes burials might represent an adaption to the local desert environment, which had better access to wood rather than stones. Circular stone kerbs with stone-pit in centre were widely seen in Bronze Age Afanasievo and Andronovo burials, and also in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age burials along the Tian Shan. The present study suggests a high possibility that the six males buried in the sun-radiating-spokes graves came from the contemporary parallel Andronovo horizon, and kept some of their own ancestry memories in an adapted way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Silesian, I think now as I have for the last ten years that much of what has been written on forums about Corded Ware Culture is a transposition of the culture of the eastern and much later mobile populations of the steppe, people with metallurgy, onto Corded Ware. Much of it is just anachronistic for Corded Ware.

    Corded Ware had stone axes and flint knives, no superior bronze weapons, not even much, if any, copper. Horse remains are rare and I don't remember if any paper even reports remains of the carts. I think a lot of this is conjecture from words in the language. Most burials just have beakers in them, and some stone tools and axes, but not even horse bones. If you search using academia.edu you'll find lots of papers like the following:

    See:
    https://www.academia.edu/20286495/So..._upland_region

    Some pots, probably made by local women admitted into the group, and stone axes, and flint arrowheads. That's it.

    This is Kristiansen. It's all very general. Lots of talk about wagons and loading belongings on pack animals but no links to actual finds of the wagons. Being constructed of wood they may have rotted away, so there is that to consider.
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12d8/4fc4d5456f288ae5e72dc1decdc63319fd50.pd


    Diet and mobility in Corded Ware:
    Also, the substantial variation present at individual, local and regional levels is highlighted by this study. Such variability excludes any simplistic interpretation of CW economy as dominated by any single mode of subsistence. In combination with recent archaeological information for CW settlement and other studies of diet and mobility for this period, we would conclude that the CW people of southern Germany specifically, and perhaps Central Europe as a whole, continued largely in an agricultural way of life.
    Although mobility was relatively high, it was not greatly different from earlier groups of farmers such as the Linearbandkeramik and the contemporary Bell Beaker folk of Western Europe in general and southern Germany in particular [69, 90, 93].
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0155083

    The most mobile members of their society were the women.

    There are more detailed and nuanced discussions of the the changes which took place over the 1000 years after their appearance, including the adoption of crop cultivation, which never really ceased. Sorry, I didn't save the links to any of those papers.

    As to horses, all the paper says is that "At the Wattendorf settlement in NE Bavaria, for instance, cattle were prominent among the faunal remains, but sheep, goats, pigs and horses were also found. "


    It doesn't seem to me that it's likely that most of the wagons were pulled by horses.

    Imo, there was a Neolithic collapse, either from a changing climate, or destruction of the soil by over cultivation, or both, then plague. The very wet period on deforested lands made for lots of grass and the incoming people from the steppe with their herds were thus able to survive better. I also have a hunch they had more immunity to the plague. They weren't cowboys of the steppe wielding bronze swords from horseback. That was all fantasy imo.

    All of that stuff is much later.
    Thank you for your perspective and valuable unbiased input. Very interesting.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    R1b1a1a2-M269 Tocharians?
    No, R1b2-PH155 Huns!
    The complete set of aligned Y SNP calls from the Tianshan individuals:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    • M15-2: R-PH200
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH200/
    • MO12: R-PH155
    https://yfull.com/tree/R-PH155/
    • M15-1: Q-M120
    https://yfull.com/tree/Q-M120/
    • X3: Q-F5400
    https://yfull.com/tree/Q-F5400/
    R-PH200 under R-PH155 was found in a supposed "Gepid" (VIM_2, ERS2374341 on the YFull tree) from Serbia from the 6th century CE with an artificially deformed skull who was autosomally at least 20% East Asian, and therefore likely a Hun or with a Hun father, and also a Tian Shan Hun from Uzbekistan from about the year 260 CE. Both Q-M120 and Q-F5400 are East Asian.
    Autosomally, these 4 individuals from China are substantially East Asian.
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...with-huns.html
    This raises some interesting questions about the origins of this earliest branch of R1b, which doesn't appear to have migrated westward from the R* homeland until historic period. The first westward movement of R1b appears to have taken place after the LGM, not before 17,100 ybp, and likely later after the Bolling Interstadial ("the End of the Ice Age") at 14,700 ybp.
    https://yfull.com/tree/R1b/

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...KsYfDR4c#gid=0

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    if these samples are really Huns, then the dating and the location suggests a link between Xiongnu and Huns

    is there DNA available from Xiongnu/Huns to compare with these samples?

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