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Thread: I1 in the Balkans

  1. #1
    Junior Member AdrianPiskovic's Avatar
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    I1 in the Balkans

    I have completed a Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, and they came up with the conclusion that I am apart of the I1 Haplogroup. This confuses me as my paternal DNA comes from Hercegovina. Could anyone explain why I maybe be apart of I1 and not I2a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianPiskovic View Post
    I have completed a Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, and they came up with the conclusion that I am apart of the I1 Haplogroup. This confuses me as my paternal DNA comes from Hercegovina. Could anyone explain why I maybe be apart of I1 and not I2a?
    Hi Adrian. There is nothing strange with this result. Actually there are quite a few men in the Balkans who belong to the I1 Haplogroup, and certain areas have more than others. The most likely scenario is that your paternal ancestor arrived to the Balkans with one of the Germanic peoples that settled or passed through in the Migration Period.

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    Regular Member spruithean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianPiskovic View Post
    I have completed a Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, and they came up with the conclusion that I am apart of the I1 Haplogroup. This confuses me as my paternal DNA comes from Hercegovina. Could anyone explain why I maybe be apart of I1 and not I2a?
    Nice to see another I1 person around! Your result is not unusual at all, maybe less common, but not unusual. As Ownstyler said, it could be due to Germanic activity during the Migration Period, notably Eastern Germanic tribes such as Goths, Gepids, etc who could be the source for I1 in the Balkans (to name only 2 tribes, there were other Germanic populations settled as foederati within the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianPiskovic View Post
    I have completed a Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, and they came up with the conclusion that I am apart of the I1 Haplogroup. This confuses me as my paternal DNA comes from Hercegovina. Could anyone explain why I maybe be apart of I1 and not I2a?
    I1 is present at about 7-8% in territories of Albanian speakers, more pronounced in South Albania. One possible origin is Visigoths who stood for about 200 years in the area. Serbia also I have read on their internet forums has between 8-9% I1. But I1 in Slavic countries is not necessary Germanic. Slavs could have Slavicized the I1 people the same way Germans did, who are predominantly R1b. But as for other haplogroups, also I1 is not strictly Germanic. To have an idea check the I1 tree ,where your deep clade fits where do people with the same clade reside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianPiskovic View Post
    I have completed a Y-DNA test with FamilyTreeDNA, and they came up with the conclusion that I am apart of the I1 Haplogroup. This confuses me as my paternal DNA comes from Hercegovina. Could anyone explain why I maybe be apart of I1 and not I2a?
    You need not to be worry because it’s normal to have a haplo that’s unusual in your area . People have just mixed during centuries . Nothing is unusual in your haplo .



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  6. #6
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    I got my DNA test today and have the i1 as well, and I am from Bosnia too. Very surprising. I thought there's a good chance I'd have i2, but this really was out of the blue. The i2 though also came from somewhere in north-eastern Europe, so there is not much of a difference in terms of migration patterns of the two haplogroups, I would say. Both are the only native European haplogroups out there, so that's really awesome!

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    Well, I am from Croatia and my result is I-M253. Lots of population changes in last few centuries around here.

  8. #8
    Regular Member I1a3_Young's Avatar
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    Welcome to the club. Most Balkan I1 falls into the Z63 or P109 groups.

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    Hi everyone, I'm new. Just got my tests and it's I1a-Z59 which is quite surprising because I'm from Croatia and I was born in Bosnia.
    This looks like the place to share this, I totally get you Adrian I was also confused :)

    I'm thinking either Goths which passed through this area, also Osthrogoths ruled in Balkans (Istria, Dalmatia etc...) or Saxon miners which came to Bosnia in 13th and 14th century.

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    It could be Normans or Goths that stayed in Balkan. Many places have Gothic names like Gacka in Lika or Gacko in Bosnia or Onogost now Niksic in Montenegro.

    Other than that it could just be the north Europeans that assimilated with Slavs while going to where Croats are now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigebryht View Post
    It could be Normans or Goths that stayed in Balkan. Many places have Gothic names like Gacka in Lika or Gacko in Bosnia or Onogost now Niksic in Montenegro.

    Other than that it could just be the north Europeans that assimilated with Slavs while going to where Croats are now.
    Wrong, i1 is found 8% in North Albania/kosova which has tiny South slavic i2a and r1a.

    I1 in balkans has little to do with slavs, it has likely been there for thousands of years, areas with high v13 seem to have a fair amount of i1 so could be a link there

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    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Wrong, i1 is found 8% in North Albania/kosova which has tiny South slavic i2a and r1a.
    I1 in balkans has little to do with slavs, it has likely been there for thousands of years, areas with high v13 seem to have a fair amount of i1 so could be a link there
    I1 has not been in the Balkans for thousands of years. At least in the case of most Balkan folk, including Albanians. I1* as a whole has a TMRCA of 4600ybp. This means all living I1 men descend from 1 man that lived around 2600BCE.

    In the case of Albanians, the only branch that seems old is I-S20289(formed 3400ybp/TMRCA:3100ybp). Most downstream of S20289 are located in NW Europe. Then there is I-Y59728* with a formation of 3600ybp and a TMRCA of 2700ybp(this is shared with a Colombian and a Serb). Its downstream branch has English & American participants. Finally there is I-Y97339 which has a TMRCA of 950ybp. However, given there are only Albanians forming this branch, there may or may not be others that can push the TMRCA back.

    The overwhelming majority of I1 in Albanians belongs to I-Y60985 which has a formation of 1500ybp(500CE) and a TMRCA of 500ybp. I am sure there is probably another 'Albanian' clade upstream of it that falls closer to the 1500ybp formation date. I-Y60985 itself is downstream of I-Y16435 which is found in a Belarussian. The TMRCA of I-Y16435 is 1800ybp(200CE). The parent branch of Y16435 is I-S2077 which has a TMRCA of 3600ybp(mostly all Western Europeans upstream).

    I-Y60985 in Albanians and some South Slavs, seems to have spread from one survivor somewhere out of Central/Central-East Europe between 200-500CE. So, Goths are a big possibility. Any earlier arrival is highly unlikely, unless that I-S20289 or I-Y59728 branch starts developing older branches in Albanians or Serbs. Balkan paternal lines of I1-M253 meet to common ancestors between 1500-1800 years ago, whilst most distant connections are with Northern Europe, suggesting most I1-M253 in the Balkans arrived between late antiquity and early medieval.

    On Rrenjet which is nearing 900-1000 samples, I1 makes up 6.8%, R1a 7.4%, and I2a-Y3120 7.6%. In Kosova I1 is highest in Peja(20%), Ferizaj(20%) and Gjilan(18.2%). Though that's only about 5 out of 26 total samples for those 3 regions. In Albania theres a larger sample base, with I1 highest in Shkoder(15%), Gjirokaster(10.2%), and Vlore(8.6%). https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    some samples from the new project are still reported on Gjenetika, so I am not certain what percentage of reported I1 are duplicates or not, so I didn't quote it. Though it is around 8% on there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I1 has not been in the Balkans for thousands of years. At least in the case of most Balkan folk, including Albanians. I1* as a whole has a TMRCA of 4600ybp. This means all living I1 men descend from 1 man that lived around 2600BCE.
    In the case of Albanians, the only branch that seems old is I-S20289(formed 3400ybp/TMRCA:3100ybp). Most downstream of S20289 are located in NW Europe. Then there is I-Y59728* with a formation of 3600ybp and a TMRCA of 2700ybp(this is shared with a Colombian and a Serb). Its downstream branch has English & American participants. Finally there is I-Y97339 which has a TMRCA of 950ybp. However, given there are only Albanians forming this branch, there may or may not be others that can push the TMRCA back.
    The overwhelming majority of I1 in Albanians belongs to I-Y60985 which has a formation of 1500ybp(500CE) and a TMRCA of 500ybp. I am sure there is probably another 'Albanian' clade upstream of it that falls closer to the 1500ybp formation date. I-Y60985 itself is downstream of I-Y16435 which is found in a Belarussian. The TMRCA of I-Y16435 is 1800ybp(200CE). The parent branch of Y16435 is I-S2077 which has a TMRCA of 3600ybp(mostly all Western Europeans upstream).
    I-Y60985 in Albanians and some South Slavs, seems to have spread from one survivor somewhere out of Central/Central-East Europe between 200-500CE. So, Goths are a big possibility. Any earlier arrival is highly unlikely, unless that I-S20289 or I-Y59728 branch starts developing older branches in Albanians or Serbs. Balkan paternal lines of I1-M253 meet to common ancestors between 1500-1800 years ago, whilst most distant connections are with Northern Europe, suggesting most I1-M253 in the Balkans arrived between late antiquity and early medieval.
    On Rrenjet which is nearing 900-1000 samples, I1 makes up 6.8%, R1a 7.4%, and I2a-Y3120 7.6%. In Kosova I1 is highest in Peja(20%), Ferizaj(20%) and Gjilan(18.2%). Though that's only about 5 out of 26 total samples for those 3 regions. In Albania theres a larger sample base, with I1 highest in Shkoder(15%), Gjirokaster(10.2%), and Vlore(8.6%). https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    some samples from the new project are still reported on Gjenetika, so I am not certain what percentage of reported I1 are duplicates or not, so I didn't quote it. Though it is around 8% on there.
    Are you really saying that i1 is only 2600BC old? I was sure they had found more ancient dna -

    Early Neolithic Hungary (c. 7,300 to 6,900 ybp): C1a2 (x1), F (x1), G2a2a1 (x1), G2a2b (x2), G2a2b2a (x1), G2a2b2b1 (x1), I1 (x1) => Szécsényi-Nagy (2015) & Lipson (2017)

    Sure some i1 may belong to goths but there is a chance that some i1 was in balkans before this as Neolithic Hungary proves. In any case i1 in balkans has nothing to do with slavs if you look at their percentages. For example, North Albania has more i1 than Slavic y dna, south Albania slightly less whereas Serbs have MUCH more i2a and r1a than i1

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Are you really saying that i1 is only 2600BC old? I was sure they had found more ancient dna -
    Early Neolithic Hungary (c. 7,300 to 6,900 ybp): C1a2 (x1), F (x1), G2a2a1 (x1), G2a2b (x2), G2a2b2a (x1), G2a2b2b1 (x1), I1 (x1) => Szécsényi-Nagy (2015) & Lipson (2017)
    Sure some i1 may belong to goths but there is a chance that some i1 was in balkans before this as Neolithic Hungary proves. In any case i1 in balkans has nothing to do with slavs if you look at their percentages. For example, North Albania has more i1 than Slavic y dna, south Albania slightly less whereas Serbs have MUCH more i2a and r1a than i1
    Yes, I1 today, descend from one male survivor who lived some time around 2600BCE. There is of course older I1 found in ancient graves. However, these are few, far and in-between. As far as I am aware, there are no moderns descending from these Neolithic samples that are unrelated to the majority of the branch.

    There is no doubt that majority of branches arrived with Germanic speakers between late antiquity and early medieval. Slavic speakers are also not out of the question depending on the haplotype, the time period and its diversity. Germans and Slavs were neighbors for far longer periods than their trek to the Balkans. Some probably were Latinized too, as there were Gothic Foederati. The cluster in Albanians was probably previously Latin speaking. At least the most dominant cluster in the project.

    I don't doubt that some I1 in the Balkans may be found that is unrelated to Germanic/Gothic peoples prior to late antiquity. I even mentioned 2 such branches found in Albanians that could represent the idea you have. The majority belong to the young branch I mentioned in Albanians and some Montenegrins.

    Not sure you're math makes any sense. If you combine I2/R1a they are alot higher than I1 is. Assuming of course most of their haplotypes arrived with Slavs. So, no, I1 does not exceed R1a/I2a as a whole. Even in the North. I1 is actually a strong haplogroup for Serbs. Depending on region of course. Overall they get 8-10% I1 depending on the sources.

    The breakdown is this. I only included Y3120 for I2a:

    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    Rrenjet, which has the most samples:

    Albanians as a whole have 15%(R1a/I2a) & 6.8%(I1)
    Gegs have 11.9%(R1a/I2a) & 6.4%(I1)
    Tosks have 20.3%(R1a/I2a) & 7.6%(I1)
    Labs have 5.5%(R1a/I2a) & 13.2%(I1)
    Cams have 35.3%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)
    Kosova has 13.8%(R1a/I2a) & 8.5%(I1)
    Maqedoni has 15%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)
    Mali i Zi has 22.2%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)

    As you can see, only in the case of the Labs is I1 higher than R1a+I2a. Keep in mind, there are only 5 samples out of a small amount for Kosova in Rrenjet, and 14 total on Gjenetika that are I1. That could change as the region is sampled more. I wouldn't make any hard claims based off of 5-14 samples. A good many regions in Albania, Kosova, and Macedonia are still very under-sampled, or not sampled at all. In a small batch for Kosova recently done for Opoja on Rrenjet, there were no I1 and quite a bit of I-Y3120.

    As for Gjenetika, which reports a number of samples that were migrated to Rrenjet, the statistics are as follows.(some of which may be duplicates)

    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    Albanians as a whole have 12.6%(R1a/I2a) & 7.6%(I1)
    Gegs have 8.6%(R1a/I2a) & 7.9%(I1)
    Tosks have 20.1%(R1a/I2a) & 7.3%(I1)
    Kosova has 7.5%(R1a/I2a) & 7.4%(I1)
    Maqedoni has 10%(R1a/I2a) & 4%(I1)
    Mali i Zi has 6.3%(R1a/I2a) & 3.1%(I1)

    You can check the I1 tree yourself. None of them beside the 2 branches I mentioned are native to the Balkans. They mostly arrived with Germanic speakers who were Latinized, and minimally maybe some Slavicized Goths could have carried some branches into Serbs, as TMRCA's would suggest.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Yes, I1 today, descend from one male survivor who lived some time around 2600BCE. There is of course older I1 found in ancient graves. However, these are few, far and in-between. As far as I am aware, there are no moderns descending from these Neolithic samples that are unrelated to the majority of the branch.
    There is no doubt that majority of branches arrived with Germanic speakers between late antiquity and early medieval. Slavic speakers are also not out of the question depending on the haplotype, the time period and its diversity. Germans and Slavs were neighbors for far longer periods than their trek to the Balkans. Some probably were Latinized too, as there were Gothic Foederati. The cluster in Albanians was probably previously Latin speaking. At least the most dominant cluster in the project.
    I don't doubt that some I1 in the Balkans may be found that is unrelated to Germanic/Gothic peoples prior to late antiquity. I even mentioned 2 such branches found in Albanians that could represent the idea you have. The majority belong to the young branch I mentioned in Albanians and some Montenegrins.
    Not sure you're math makes any sense. If you combine I2/R1a they are alot higher than I1 is. Assuming of course most of their haplotypes arrived with Slavs. So, no, I1 does not exceed R1a/I2a as a whole. Even in the North. I1 is actually a strong haplogroup for Serbs. Depending on region of course. Overall they get 8-10% I1 depending on the sources.
    The breakdown is this. I only included Y3120 for I2a:
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    Rrenjet, which has the most samples:
    Albanians as a whole have 15%(R1a/I2a) & 6.8%(I1)
    Gegs have 11.9%(R1a/I2a) & 6.4%(I1)
    Tosks have 20.3%(R1a/I2a) & 7.6%(I1)
    Labs have 5.5%(R1a/I2a) & 13.2%(I1)
    Cams have 35.3%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)
    Kosova has 13.8%(R1a/I2a) & 8.5%(I1)
    Maqedoni has 15%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)
    Mali i Zi has 22.2%(R1a/I2a) & 0%(I1)
    As you can see, only in the case of the Labs is I1 higher than R1a+I2a. Keep in mind, there are only 5 samples out of a small amount for Kosova in Rrenjet, and 14 total on Gjenetika that are I1. That could change as the region is sampled more. I wouldn't make any hard claims based off of 5-14 samples. A good many regions in Albania, Kosova, and Macedonia are still very under-sampled, or not sampled at all. In a small batch for Kosova recently done for Opoja on Rrenjet, there were no I1 and quite a bit of I-Y3120.
    As for Gjenetika, which reports a number of samples that were migrated to Rrenjet, the statistics are as follows.(some of which may be duplicates)
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    Albanians as a whole have 12.6%(R1a/I2a) & 7.6%(I1)
    Gegs have 8.6%(R1a/I2a) & 7.9%(I1)
    Tosks have 20.1%(R1a/I2a) & 7.3%(I1)
    Kosova has 7.5%(R1a/I2a) & 7.4%(I1)
    Maqedoni has 10%(R1a/I2a) & 4%(I1)
    Mali i Zi has 6.3%(R1a/I2a) & 3.1%(I1)
    You can check the I1 tree yourself. None of them beside the 2 branches I mentioned are native to the Balkans. They mostly arrived with Germanic speakers who were Latinized, and minimally maybe some Slavicized Goths could have carried some branches into Serbs, as TMRCA's would suggest.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I1/
    I am shocked to hear that i1 is relatively new, I always thought it was (one of) the original european marker

    Reason why I mentioned slavs having nothing to do with i1 in balkans is because proportionally south slavic regions are around 50% i2a-din + Slavic r1a in addition to that 8-10% i1 you mentioned (actually it seems to be a lot less from sources I have seen (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene...oups%20with%20 lesser). Do you have a website where they keep records of south slavic y dna?

    If we look at albania as an example we can see that all 7% of i1 cannot be from South slavs because they should also then have 50%+ i2a din and slavic r1a. Instead albanians have around 7-9% south slavic y dna because not all i2a and r1a is from them. According to most sources I've seen south slavs and albanians seem to have a similar amount of i1. Would be cool to know the figures for Romanians and Greeks.

    In a ratio of let's say 9% South slavic dna would only bring maybe 1-2% i1 along but albanians have a lot more than this. Also, let's not forget that some i1 in South slavs is actually from balkan people as they also carry big amount of non Slavic y dna. It is true that they are neighbours with Germans but balkan people were so too as Byzantine was neighbouring Germans pre Slavic invasion not to mention ilyrians, dacians and other balkan people before that. And as you said the goths have history with byzantine.

    In fact if you look at western r1b in balkans it is actually a lot less than i1. Does this point to an early adoption of i1 pre r1b europe? Or it is simply that Germans/goths carried more i1 during byzantine period than they do today?

    Also, we should avoid the split statistics for Tosks, kosova, maqedoni, mal I zi, greci etc because we do not have enough data from these regions so results will be misleading and skewed - we can use albanians as a total as we have around 900 samples now or even ghegs because they have had a fair amount of tests but we shouldn't split them up yet, not enough samples.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I am shocked to hear that i1 is relatively new, I always thought it was (one of) the original european marker
    Reason why I mentioned slavs having nothing to do with i1 in balkans is because proportionally south slavic regions are around 50% i2a-din + Slavic r1a in addition to that 8-10% i1 you mentioned (actually it seems to be a lot less from sources I have seen (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene...oups%20with%20 lesser). Do you have a website where they keep records of south slavic y dna?
    If we look at albania as an example we can see that all 7% of i1 cannot be from South slavs because they should also then have 50%+ i2a din and slavic r1a. Instead albanians have around 7-9% south slavic y dna because not all i2a and r1a is from them. According to most sources I've seen south slavs and albanians seem to have a similar amount of i1. Would be cool to know the figures for Romanians and Greeks.
    In a ratio of let's say 9% South slavic dna would only bring maybe 1-2% i1 along but albanians have a lot more than this. Also, let's not forget that some i1 in South slavs is actually from balkan people as they also carry big amount of non Slavic y dna. It is true that they are neighbours with Germans but balkan people were so too as Byzantine was neighbouring Germans pre Slavic invasion not to mention ilyrians, dacians and other balkan people before that. And as you said the goths have history with byzantine.
    In fact if you look at western r1b in balkans it is actually a lot less than i1. Does this point to an early adoption of i1 pre r1b europe? Or it is simply that Germans/goths carried more i1 during byzantine period than they do today?
    Also, we should avoid the split statistics for Tosks, kosova, maqedoni, mal I zi, greci etc because we do not have enough data from these regions so results will be misleading and skewed - we can use albanians as a total as we have around 900 samples now or even ghegs because they have had a fair amount of tests but we shouldn't split them up yet, not enough samples.
    I mean, it is definitely a "original" European or pre-Indo-European line. It is just that the diversity was mostly wiped out, with majority of modern I1 men descending from one man around 2600BCE who was likely in Northern Europe. This phenomena is common with many haplogroups where the most recent ancestor of all living men in the line post date the formation date significantly. For instance L1029 formed in 1100BCE but has a common ancestor around 100BCE. Most of the diversity appears to have been wiped out.

    Diversity is more important than percentage. South Slavs for instance have more I2a than other Slavs. Though, they lack diversity which is mostly between South Poland, NW Ukraine and SW Belarus.

    I never said I1 arrived with Slavs. I said it arrived with Germanic speakers like Goths. Though, like anything in the realm of possibility, due to passage of time, some could have arrived as Slavic speakers. The same as you have R1a/I2a-Din in Magyar conquerors from the 9th centuries. Cross assimilation was probably more prevalent before the advent of nationalism. For instance, most of L1029 post dating the migration seem to have moved with Slavic like Vikings, West Slavs, East Germans etc. Though the only pre-migration DNA is 1 La Tene sample around Czech Republic(in peer review), and M458 in late Hallstatt(sample MX265 from the Neolithic Switzerland study).

    Actually, if you review the statistics on both Albanian projects; overwhelming majority of I1 in Albanians is concentrated around South-West Puke and Laberia so far. If you remove these 2 groups, I1 drops to less than 5% in Albanians. So, again most of the percentage is concentrated in these 2 areas. Kosova I1 is still very low, it could rise or drop as the region gains more samples. I agree we need more samples before making concrete statements.

    There is no way to know what percentage of R1a or I2a may have arrived with or without Slavic speakers. Though, the majority is likely to arrive with them. So, we can't really guesstimate without WGS or aDNA. As for I1 being Balkan, it is not. Most branches(maybe not all) arrived between late antiquity and early medieval. Likely arrived mostly with Goths/other Germanic speakers, and then were latinized, and then later Albanianized, and Slavicized. There is no way to know at the moment what branches may have been Slavicized before entering the Balkans or what percentage may have also tagged along with Slavs as well. I1 was certainly not Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian or any Paleo-Balkan people. If it is eventually found in aDNA, it is unlikely to be related to any of the current I1 in the Balkans. If modern matches are found it would still make up a minority of I1 which mostly arrived with Germanic speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I mean, it is definitely a "original" European or pre-Indo-European line. It is just that the diversity was mostly wiped out, with majority of modern I1 men descending from one man around 2600BCE who was likely in Northern Europe. This phenomena is common with many haplogroups where the most recent ancestor of all living men in the line post date the formation date significantly. For instance L1029 formed in 1100BCE but has a common ancestor around 100BCE. Most of the diversity appears to have been wiped out.

    Diversity is more important than percentage. South Slavs for instance have more I2a than other Slavs. Though, they lack diversity which is mostly between South Poland, NW Ukraine and SW Belarus.

    I never said I1 arrived with Slavs. I said it arrived with Germanic speakers like Goths. Though, like anything in the realm of possibility, due to passage of time, some could have arrived as Slavic speakers. The same as you have R1a/I2a-Din in Magyar conquerors from the 9th centuries. Cross assimilation was probably more prevalent before the advent of nationalism. For instance, most of L1029 post dating the migration seem to have moved with Slavic like Vikings, West Slavs, East Germans etc. Though the only pre-migration DNA is 1 La Tene sample around Czech Republic(in peer review), and M458 in late Hallstatt(sample MX265 from the Neolithic Switzerland study).

    Actually, if you review the statistics on both Albanian projects; overwhelming majority of I1 in Albanians is concentrated around South-West Puke and Laberia so far. If you remove these 2 groups, I1 drops to less than 5% in Albanians. So, again most of the percentage is concentrated in these 2 areas. Kosova I1 is still very low, it could rise or drop as the region gains more samples. I agree we need more samples before making concrete statements.

    There is no way to know what percentage of R1a or I2a may have arrived with or without Slavic speakers. Though, the majority is likely to arrive with them. So, we can't really guesstimate without WGS or aDNA. As for I1 being Balkan, it is not. Most branches(maybe not all) arrived between late antiquity and early medieval. Likely arrived mostly with Goths/other Germanic speakers, and then were latinized, and then later Albanianized, and Slavicized. There is no way to know at the moment what branches may have been Slavicized before entering the Balkans or what percentage may have also tagged along with Slavs as well. I1 was certainly not Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian or any Paleo-Balkan people. If it is eventually found in aDNA, it is unlikely to be related to any of the current I1 in the Balkans. If modern matches are found it would still make up a minority of I1 which mostly arrived with Germanic speakers.
    Thanks for that. Yeah it does look like a lot of i1 did come to balkans through the goths but I would like to know why it is much higher in frequency than western/northern r1b. As far as I'm aware Scandinavian countries today also carry a lot of r1b so were goths almost pure i1 1500+ years ago?

    Also, as for early i1 being wiped out. Is northern r1b likely responsible for this or more a case of wildlife/nature?

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    I read some more on this today and i1 z63 seems to lack connection to Scandinavians. This surely means it was present in Balkans before Gothic immigration into Byzantine?
    Could be an illyrian/dacian/proto german clade?
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 02-01-21 at 04:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I read some more on this today and i1 z63 seems to lack connection to Scandinavians. This surely means it was present in Balkans before Gothic immigration into Byzantine?
    Could be an illyrian/thracian/proto german clade?
    If I rely on Wikipedia, your affirmation is far from being confirmed:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to navigation Jump to search Haplogroup I-Z63, also known as I1a3 per the International Society of Genetic Genealogy ('ISOGG), is a Y chromosome haplogroup. It is correlated with a DYS456 value inferior to 15, but there are exceptions.[citation needed]

    I-Z63 is most common in England, Scotland, Germany, Fennoscandia[citation needed], Iberia and Poland.[1] Its progenitor is assumed to have lived in Jutland at around 2500 BCE. Within Fennoscandia, I-Z63 has a particularly strong association with Finland.To date, ancient I-Z63 has been found archeologically in Poland and Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    If I rely on Wikipedia, your affirmation is far from being confirmed:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Jump to navigation Jump to search Haplogroup I-Z63, also known as I1a3 per the International Society of Genetic Genealogy ('ISOGG), is a Y chromosome haplogroup. It is correlated with a DYS456 value inferior to 15, but there are exceptions.[citation needed]

    I-Z63 is most common in England, Scotland, Germany, Fennoscandia[citation needed], Iberia and Poland.[1] Its progenitor is assumed to have lived in Jutland at around 2500 BCE. Within Fennoscandia, I-Z63 has a particularly strong association with Finland.To date, ancient I-Z63 has been found archeologically in Poland and Italy.
    Yes looks like z63 is a southern clade of i1, it is mostly from Central Europe but when did it split from Scandinavia because it is almost non existant up there which points to an early split

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Yes looks like z63 is a southern clade of i1, it is mostly from Central Europe but when did it split from Scandinavia because it is almost non existant up there which points to an early split
    I have todate no firm opinion, so I put more details from Wikipedia, which is often well enough informed, even if not always at the top:

    "
    On the basis of analysing samples of volunteers in YDNA sequencing, the YDNA analysis company YFull estimated that I-Z63 formed 4,600 years ago (2600 BC) (95% CI 5,100 <-> 4,000 ybp) with a TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of 4,400 years (95% CI 4,900 <-> 3,900 ybp) before present.[6]
    Geographically I-Z63 is believed to have arisen in or near what is now Denmark (based in part on the current distribution of this haplogroup).[7] The current distribution of I-Z63 shows that there is a very high concentration of I-Z63 on the British Isles.[1] At the same time, the archeological record presents a strong association of I-Z63 to the Wielbark culture and by extension with the Goths.[4] There is a proposed link between the Goths and British migration, the so-called "Jutish Hypothesis".[8] The "Jutish hypothesis" claims that the Jutes may be synonymous with the Geats of southern Sweden or their neighbours, the Gutes. The evidence adduced for this theory includes:


    • primary sources referring to the Geats (Geátas) by alternative names such as Iútan, Iótas and Eotas;
    • Asser in his Life of Alfred (893) identifies the Jutes with the Goths (in a passage claiming that Alfred the Great was descended, through his mother, Osburga, from the ruling dynasty of the Jutish kingdom of Wihtwara, on the Isle of Wight), and;
    • the Gutasaga (13th Century) states that some inhabitants of Gotland left for mainland Europe; large burial sites attributable to either Goths or Gepids were found in the 19th century near Willenberg, Prussia (after 1945 Wielbark in Poland).[9][10]

    The Jutes invaded and settled in southern Britain in the late 4th century during the Age of Migrations, as part of a larger wave of Germanic settlement in the British Isles. The Jutish migration to Britain may explain the high concentration of I-Z63 found in modern Britain. However, I-Z63 is notably sparse among modern volunteer testers from Denmark. This is surprising because, in a geographical sense, Denmark encompasses the ancient homeland of the Jutes. Foreign invaders displacing the Jutes from their ancient homeland may explain the relative lack of I-Z63 in Denmark. Even in the year 945, the peoples of Jutland were threatened by foreign invaders (yet ironically were posing a threat to other groups elsewhere, such as in England). In 945 King Hacon of Norway arrived in Jutland and slew many of the people there, sending the survivors “far up into the land”.[11] The current distribution of I-Z63 clearly shows that while there is a near absence of I-Z63 in modern Denmark, sizable numbers of I-Z63 men live today in Finland, Norway, Sweden and Aland.[1]

    Based on the combined evidence, the preferred current working hypothesis puts the progenitor of I-Z63 in ancient Jutland around the year 2000 BCE. "

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    Z63 does have a weird distribution, could it be that it was pushed out of Denmark by a different tribe post war? How frequent is it in England in terms of percentage? Maybe majority went into England and others down into central europe/balkans though that would be a bit odd.

    Also, what is the current story for Z58 in terms of frequency?

    In terms of i1 in Serbs, looking here they seem to have 8% in total and majority isn't Z63 or Z58 like it is in Albanians (85-90%), they carry mostly different subclades. What percent would you say is Z63 and Z58 among them?
    https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

    Would be interesting to know what the Romanians, Macedonians and Greeks have

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    My Greek friend posted here
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...reek-regions-)
    With direct paternal ancestry originally from the settlement of Seydikoy in Izmir recently uploaded his WGS test data to Yfull.
    While the analysis is not yet complete , he is placed under I1-L22 and his haplogroup is preliminarily determined as I-Y16808*.
    The age of formation for the whole Y16808 is 2200 YBP and TMRCA 2000 YBP.

    Any comments ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lacreme View Post
    My Greek friend posted here
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...reek-regions-)
    With direct paternal ancestry originally from the settlement of Seydikoy in Izmir recently uploaded his WGS test data to Yfull.
    While the analysis is not yet complete , he is placed under I1-L22 and his haplogroup is preliminarily determined as I-Y16808*.
    The age of formation for the whole Y16808 is 2200 YBP and TMRCA 2000 YBP.

    Any comments ?
    I would say its a clear ostrogothic line - found amongst swedes

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I would say its a clear ostrogothic line - found amongst swedes
    Thank you! Indeed it looks like it.

    Btw since my last post he is now confirmed to be Y16808* . According to another user he will probably form a new subclade (with TMRCA of ~1500ybp) with the Bulgarian man in a next update.

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