I1 in the Balkans

TaktikatEMalet said:
Yes looks like z63 is a southern clade of i1, it is mostly from Central Europe but when did it split from Scandinavia because it is almost non existant up there which points to an early split
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I have todate no firm opinion, so I put more details from Wikipedia, which is often well enough informed, even if not always at the top:

"On the basis of analysing samples of volunteers in YDNA sequencing, the YDNA analysis company YFull estimated that I-Z63 formed 4,600 years ago (2600 BC) (95% CI 5,100 <-> 4,000 ybp) with a TMRCA (Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor) of 4,400 years (95% CI 4,900 <-> 3,900 ybp) before present.[6]
Geographically I-Z63 is believed to have arisen in or near what is now Denmark (based in part on the current distribution of this haplogroup).[7] The current distribution of I-Z63 shows that there is a very high concentration of I-Z63 on the British Isles.[1] At the same time, the archeological record presents a strong association of I-Z63 to the Wielbark culture and by extension with the Goths.[4] There is a proposed link between the Goths and British migration, the so-called "Jutish Hypothesis".[8] The "Jutish hypothesis" claims that the Jutes may be synonymous with the Geats of southern Sweden or their neighbours, the Gutes. The evidence adduced for this theory includes:


  • primary sources referring to the Geats (Geátas) by alternative names such as Iútan, Iótas and Eotas;
  • Asser in his Life of Alfred (893) identifies the Jutes with the Goths (in a passage claiming that Alfred the Great was descended, through his mother, Osburga, from the ruling dynasty of the Jutish kingdom of Wihtwara, on the Isle of Wight), and;
  • the Gutasaga (13th Century) states that some inhabitants of Gotland left for mainland Europe; large burial sites attributable to either Goths or Gepids were found in the 19th century near Willenberg, Prussia (after 1945 Wielbark in Poland).[9][10]
The Jutes invaded and settled in southern Britain in the late 4th century during the Age of Migrations, as part of a larger wave of Germanic settlement in the British Isles. The Jutish migration to Britain may explain the high concentration of I-Z63 found in modern Britain. However, I-Z63 is notably sparse among modern volunteer testers from Denmark. This is surprising because, in a geographical sense, Denmark encompasses the ancient homeland of the Jutes. Foreign invaders displacing the Jutes from their ancient homeland may explain the relative lack of I-Z63 in Denmark. Even in the year 945, the peoples of Jutland were threatened by foreign invaders (yet ironically were posing a threat to other groups elsewhere, such as in England). In 945 King Hacon of Norway arrived in Jutland and slew many of the people there, sending the survivors “far up into the land”.[11] The current distribution of I-Z63 clearly shows that while there is a near absence of I-Z63 in modern Denmark, sizable numbers of I-Z63 men live today in Finland, Norway, Sweden and Aland.[1]

Based on the combined evidence, the preferred current working hypothesis puts the progenitor of I-Z63 in ancient Jutland around the year 2000 BCE. "
 
Z63 does have a weird distribution, could it be that it was pushed out of Denmark by a different tribe post war? How frequent is it in England in terms of percentage? Maybe majority went into England and others down into central europe/balkans though that would be a bit odd.

Also, what is the current story for Z58 in terms of frequency?

In terms of i1 in Serbs, looking here they seem to have 8% in total and majority isn't Z63 or Z58 like it is in Albanians (85-90%), they carry mostly different subclades. What percent would you say is Z63 and Z58 among them?
https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/

Would be interesting to know what the Romanians, Macedonians and Greeks have
 
My Greek friend posted here
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...sults-(ancestry-from-multiple-greek-regions-)
With direct paternal ancestry originally from the settlement of Seydikoy in Izmir recently uploaded his WGS test data to Yfull.
While the analysis is not yet complete , he is placed under I1-L22 and his haplogroup is preliminarily determined as I-Y16808*.
The age of formation for the whole Y16808 is 2200 YBP and TMRCA 2000 YBP.

Any comments ?
 
lacreme said:
My Greek friend posted here
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...sults-(ancestry-from-multiple-greek-regions-)
With direct paternal ancestry originally from the settlement of Seydikoy in Izmir recently uploaded his WGS test data to Yfull.
While the analysis is not yet complete , he is placed under I1-L22 and his haplogroup is preliminarily determined as I-Y16808*.
The age of formation for the whole Y16808 is 2200 YBP and TMRCA 2000 YBP.

Any comments ?
Click to expand...

I would say its a clear ostrogothic line - found amongst swedes
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
I would say its a clear ostrogothic line - found amongst swedes
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Thank you! Indeed it looks like it.

Btw since my last post he is now confirmed to be Y16808* . According to another user he will probably form a new subclade (with TMRCA of ~1500ybp) with the Bulgarian man in a next update.
 
Hello,

if your friend's family comes from Asia Minor, then he may be related to the Gothograeci.
They lived in the region of Gothograecia (Opsikion) in the western part of Asia Minor, near Bursa/Prusa in present day Turkey.
 
There were a few different Gothic groups in the Balkans, the Thracian Goths, the Moesian Goths and the Pannonian Goths. Goths were also settled in Macedonia. They were part of the Ostrogoths and active in the 4th, fifth and 6th centuries. The Gothograeci were resettled Goths from an elite military unit, the Optimates. They are a later gothic group from the 8th to the 10th century.
 
Smallish update
The newly formed subclade (still only on the live YTree version) under Y16808 which includes my friend and the Pomak.
d11HIWr.jpg

According to a fellow greek user on another site the TMRCA will most probably be around 1500 ybp so right around the age of the Balkan Goths as you say.

Does anyone know from the various pages/sites how many Greeks are currently known to be under I-L22 in general ?
I have found only 2 on the I1 and the Greek dna ftdna pages, one from Peloponnese and one from Paros I think.
Most of the I1 greeks that I have seen are on different subclades ( I-Z58 ? ) .
 
bigsnake49 said:
There were a few different Gothic groups in the Balkans, the Thracian Goths, the Moesian Goths and the Pannonian Goths. Goths were also settled in Macedonia. They were part of the Ostrogoths and active in the 4th, fifth and 6th centuries. The Gothograeci were resettled Goths from an elite military unit, the Optimates. They are a later gothic group from the 8th to the 10th century.
Click to expand...


I am not quite sure, but I think that the Goths that had settled in Macedonia left for Italy during the reign of the king Theodoric.
The Moesian/Thracian Goths were probably assimilated into the Bulgarian ethnicity, while the Gothogreaci were assimilated into the Byzantine Romans.
 
So much informative information in this thread. I am FTDNA I-M253 (I1a), and downstream to I-Z58 (acc to 23andme). Just ordered Biy Y for more definitive result. Thanks for all the info folks!
 
I1 on the Balkans

Because it turned out that I am also this haplogroup I1, I was interested in how it happened and it has come to the Balkans and I made the following conclusions:

1. First, I1 haplogroup has roots somewhere in Central Europ during the late Paleolit when it separated from the main branch I. After that it appeared in the Scandinavian Peninsula around 3000 year BC, later migrated again to the British Isles and Northern Europe, somewhere in the middle of the Bronze Age 1700 BC.
2. The first massive migrations of this group were with the celts came from central Europe 400 years BC.
3. The second wave was with the Goths between 3 and 4 centuries during the Goth-Roman wars. After that with the Alano-Goths invasions 5-6 centuries AD. With the Balto-Slavo-Germanic tribes settled on the Balkans 6-7 centuries. And also with the ostrogoths came probably with Bulgarians from the region of the Crimean peninsula 7-8 century.
4. Another way for I1 to come to the Balkans were variangian invasions from Kievan Rus in the 10th century AD and Viking mercenaries served in the Eastern Roman Empire
5. The Normans and the Latin Empire, which they founded in the 13th century, are another possible way for the branches of this haplogroup to end up to the Balkans.
6. And the last way I found and the least known are the Saxon miners, called also by the locals - Sasi, who came to the Balkans in the 13th-14th centuries, invited by the local kings of Serbia, Bosnia and Bulgaria to mine iron ore and produce high-quality steel needed for production of weapons and tools for household and agriculture works.

Here is some information from Wikipedia about the Saxon miners (Sassi) in Serbia.

The earliest mention of the Saxons in Serbia is from 1253-54, which shows them as an established community. These Saxons, or Sassi, inhabited the Kingdom of Serbia during the reign of Stefan Uroš I (b. 1243–1276), from the Kingdom of Hungary. Under Stefan Uros I, Serbia became a significant power in the Balkans, in part due to economic development through the opening of mines. The mines were developed by Sassi, who had experience in mining. Their minefields had a privileged status - they lived by their own laws and were allowed to adhere to Catholicism and build their churches. The mines include Barskovo, Novo Bardo and others.

Greetings
 
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