Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Urnfield culture and R-Z93

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Urnfield culture and R-Z93

    This site https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ shows that 2-3 subclades of R-Z93 belonged to people of Urnfield culture. I thought that this culture had nothing to do with Indo-Iranians. Does it make any sense? Could anyone enlighten me?

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I don't think so.

  3. #3
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    I think it relates to Indo-European migrations (Centum branch), not Indo-Iranian, in 1900 BC Indo-Iranians gradually migrated from the east and centum-speaking people migrated to Europe.


  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think it relates to Indo-European migrations (Centum branch), not Indo-Iranian, in 1900 BC Indo-Iranians gradually migrated from the east and centum-speaking people migrated to Europe.

    Check the subclade R-YP5153. It appears that it was part of Urnfield culture.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    I found it using "My Ancestors' Path"

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    This site https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/ shows that 2-3 subclades of R-Z93 belonged to people of Urnfield culture. I thought that this culture had nothing to do with Indo-Iranians. Does it make any sense? Could anyone enlighten me?
    which subclades are they?
    and what is their TMRCA?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    which subclades are they?
    and what is their TMRCA?
    It is for sure R-YP5153 with TMRCA 2700 ybp. I also think there is a subclade under Y-57 but I have to check it again.

  8. #8
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Check the subclade R-YP5153. It appears that it was part of Urnfield culture.
    That is also a subclade of R-Z2124, the original land was in the Middle East.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    That is also a subclade of R-Z2124, the original land was in the Middle East.
    So which populations does it come from? I think it has to do with Scytho-Cimmerian branch of Srubna culture.

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    It is for sure R-YP5153 with TMRCA 2700 ybp. I also think there is a subclade under Y-57 but I have to check it again.
    this could be

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y52/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    That is also a subclade of R-Z2124, the original land was in the Middle East.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

    no, it is not
    it is Sintashta culture and origin is Abashevo culture

  12. #12
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

    no, it is not
    it is Sintashta culture and origin is Abashevo culture
    Yes but in 4700 ybp (2700 BC), in 1900 BC it was in the east of Iran and from this land it went to Europe.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Yes but in 4700 ybp (2700 BC), in 1900 BC it was in the east of Iran and from this land it went to Europe.
    This haplogroup is a downstream of R-Z2122 which has to do with ancient Indo-European tribes of Eastern Europe originated form Srubna culture. It is pinpointed mostly in Europe and to a lesser extent in Central Asia (except R-CTS6 which has Near Eastern branch). I think that the Scytho-Cimmerian branch is a good candidate for most downstreams of Z2122.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Yes it is YP4768 and a subclade of Y52 the YP1269 which appear to be part of Urnfield culture. The first of the eastern Urnfield and the second of the Central.

  15. #15
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    This haplogroup is a downstream of R-Z2122 which has to do with ancient Indo-European tribes of Eastern Europe originated form Srubna culture. It is pinpointed mostly in Europe and to a lesser extent in Central Asia (except R-CTS6 which has Near Eastern branch). I think that the Scytho-Cimmerian branch is a good candidate for most downstreams of Z2122.
    In 700 BC this haplogroup existed not only in Ukraine but also England, Scotland and Spain: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/ Scytho-Cimmerians didn't live there, I think it relates to Celtic people.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    In 700 BC this haplogroup existed not only in Ukraine but also England, Scotland and Spain: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/ Scytho-Cimmerians didn't live there, I think it relates to Celtic people.
    So can we conclude that R-Z93 was not only existed among Indo-Iranians?

  17. #17
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    So can we conclude that R-Z93 was not only existed among Indo-Iranians?
    It probably existed among Indians but not Iranians, it is meaningless that we talk about Iranians and ignore ancient Persians, Persians who live in the ancient Persian cities in Persia which were built by ancient Persians have almost no R1a but in other some parts of Iran, especially those regions where Turkic people live, R1a has a high frequency.

  18. #18
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    So can we conclude that R-Z93 was not only existed among Indo-Iranians?
    How do we know these people weren't initially Indo-Iranians themselves?

    Their SNPs could have been present in both the Steppe and the Middle East - their bearers were not the kind of people whose extended family parked themselves in one single spot over many generations. They probably would have moved around, and with horses could have done so very quickly.

    We know related people were in the Southern Urals - although phylogenically, they also fit with the Caucasus/Caspian; and all four closely-related Russian samples given by yfull are scattered across a wide area West of the Urals (Western Pontic Steppe, Eastern Pontic Steppe, Caspian Steppe and the North Caucasus).

    Autosomally, Urnfield gives us a further clue, because its best fit appears to have no Middle Eastern contribution and a very slender (3% or so) contribution from the Urals (Sintashta/Meshovskaya). Its other contributors fit best with Vucedol mixed with some Lithuanian Corded Ware, so it looks to me like a Northern people (Baltic States to Urals) who migrated South West and paternally dominated a Central European population.

  19. #19
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    It is good to mention that Ossetians, the descendents of Scytho-Sarmatians in Russia, have no R1a too, however R1a has a high frequency in other parts of Russia.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Joey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Location
    Coventry, Rhode Island
    Posts
    332
    Points
    4,029
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,029, Level: 18
    Level completed: 45%, Points required for next Level: 221
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-YP445
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c2b

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic
    Country: USA - Rhode Island



    Oh dear Lord, R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Urnfield culture! Urnfield culture was proto-Celtic, mostly R1b-U152 and R1b-U106 with western R1a minority clades R1a-L664 and R1a-M458.

  21. #21
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-10-18
    Posts
    545
    Points
    1,481
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,481, Level: 10
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 69
    Overall activity: 99.0%


    Country: Iran



    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Oh dear Lord, R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Urnfield culture! Urnfield culture was proto-Celtic, mostly R1b-U152 and R1b-U106 with western R1a minority clades R1a-L664 and R1a-M458.
    Of course not proto-Celtic but probably Tyrrhenian.

  22. #22
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Oh dear Lord, R1a-Z93 has nothing to do with the Urnfield culture! Urnfield culture was proto-Celtic, mostly R1b-U152 and R1b-U106 with western R1a minority clades R1a-L664 and R1a-M458.
    Where did these calls come from, including your own? The only one I'm aware of is R1a1a1b1a, which at least fits OK with the autosomal data.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    94
    Points
    1,359
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,359, Level: 10
    Level completed: 5%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    How do we know these people weren't initially Indo-Iranians themselves?

    Their SNPs could have been present in both the Steppe and the Middle East - their bearers were not the kind of people whose extended family parked themselves in one single spot over many generations. They probably would have moved around, and with horses could have done so very quickly.

    We know related people were in the Southern Urals - although phylogenically, they also fit with the Caucasus/Caspian; and all four closely-related Russian samples given by yfull are scattered across a wide area West of the Urals (Western Pontic Steppe, Eastern Pontic Steppe, Caspian Steppe and the North Caucasus).

    Autosomally, Urnfield gives us a further clue, because its best fit appears to have no Middle Eastern contribution and a very slender (3% or so) contribution from the Urals (Sintashta/Meshovskaya). Its other contributors fit best with Vucedol mixed with some Lithuanian Corded Ware, so it looks to me like a Northern people (Baltic States to Urals) who migrated South West and paternally dominated a Central European population.
    Thank you for the information. If there was this very limited admixture between Iranian-like populations and the Urnfield culture peoples the haplogrous I posted above are the best candidates because they are the most western clades of R-Z93. According to the site YP1269 seems to be connected with Proto-Celts of Central Europe and the YP4768 seems to be connected with the eastern Hallstatt Thracian culture.

  24. #24
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Thank you for the information. If there was this very limited admixture between Iranian-like populations and the Urnfield culture peoples the haplogrous I posted above are the best candidates because they are the most western clades of R-Z93. According to the site YP1269 seems to be connected with Proto-Celts of Central Europe and the YP4768 seems to be connected with the eastern Hallstatt Thracian culture.
    Have YP1269 and YP4768 been found on archaeological Urnfield samples, or is this just imputation? I couldn't find my way around the website very easily.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    spruithean's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-08-12
    Posts
    332
    Points
    9,068
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,068, Level: 28
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 282
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    In 700 BC this haplogroup existed not only in Ukraine but also England, Scotland and Spain: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4768/ Scytho-Cimmerians didn't live there, I think it relates to Celtic people.
    The flags you see on YFull are of MODERN individuals who've submitted their BAM files to YFull for analysis. These are not samples of ancient individuals.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •