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Thread: Basque, Iberian, Etruscan, Rhaetian,... Y-DNA haplogroup

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    because all Slavic languages started from same language, much like Latin languages today started from Latin, there are differences , but usually root is the same
    Of course you're right, but where is the evidence that the many toponyms "rasna" in the Slavic world, both southern and northern Slavic, derive from the Slavic word "rasa"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of course you're right, but where is the evidence that the many toponyms "rasna" in the Slavic world, both southern and northern Slavic, derive from the Slavic word "rasa"?
    Because it has clear meaning in old Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Name of Basque is very similar to Bashkir (Baskara), R1b has a high frequency among Bashkirs too.
    Pizza is similar to Pisa and yet there is no connection...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I think you are wrong.



    It is interesting to know that Andalusian historian Ibn Khaldun called Basque as Bashkir too. (Muqaddimah)
    Can you quote Ibn Khaldun? Can you show where he explicitly says that the Basques are "Bashkir"?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Etruscan language is pre-Indo-European but shows two types of contacts with Indo-European languages. A very ancient one that dates back to the Bronze Age when Indo-European migrations arrived in Italy and in Etruria most likely from north-east, and a second one more recent due to contacts with Italic languages ​​mainly.
    What do you mean by "Bronze Age"? Early, Middle or Late Bronze Age? And what do you mean by Indo-European languages? Italic, proto-Italic, Centum or even proto-IE? If both Etruscan and Indo-Europeans lived in Europe in the 3rd millennium BC or earlier, there should be some proto-IE words in Etruscan and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Rasna sounds like the names of some ancient Iranian and Slavic people in the East of Europe, like Ruthenia and Roxolani/Rosomoni, there are many places with the names of Rasna/Rosna/Rasina in Croatia, Macedonia, Czechia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, ... it seems to be really possible that some Etruscan tribes lived in the east of Europe before the arrival of Iranian and Slavic tribes.
    Well, there are chance similarities possible but personally I have considered the similarity between Rasenna and Ruthenia.
    Basically the 'Rus' toponyms in De Administrando Imperio seem more Hungarian like, than Germanic.

    I will mention an example which is fairly straight forward. One of the Dnieper rapids is called 'in the language of the Rus' 'Leanti' because, he says, βράσμα νερού αποτελεί (βράσσω = shake violently, throw up, of the sea, νερό = water). Hungarian has a prefix le- (down) and a verb -ont (to pour), of unkown etymology afaiu.

    There seems to have been a movement, though, rather late possibly around the 5th century AD of people with more East Asian admixture than Khanty and Mansi people and high in haplogroup N.

    The Greek sources (Theophylact) point to a region close to or around Ufa (from Kara Itil/Atel) for the origins of Pannonian Avars (pseudo-Avars, Varchonitae).

    Only a part of the lexicon of Hungarian is Ugric, though.

    The conqueros seemed to have had mixed European origin (with Eastern elements) and were called by Greeks 'Turks' but the region of Pannonia had been affected by Goths early (before Avars), Great Moravia later etc
    Last edited by A. Papadimitriou; 04-08-19 at 22:29.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Pizza is similar to Pisa and yet there is no connection...
    Can you quote Ibn Khaldun? Can you show where he explicitly says that the Basques are "Bashkir"?
    In Medieval Persian/Arabic sources, Bashkir is just the name of Basques, not Bashkirs of Russia, and the main source is Ibn Khaldun: http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/باشکیر
    But accroding to this one:
    http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/باشغرد It was in Hungary or Austria! It says Russian scholars believe Bashkirs were the same Basques who originally lived in Ural region. It also says the name of Basques in Arabic is Bashkir and in Turkish is Baskir.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The source you provide seems to lose its meaning when translated into English and does not explicitly state that Bashkir = Basque. Basque people refer to themselves as "Euskaldunak", furthermore Basque and other forms of this term descend from the Latin word Vasco plural Vascones, a pre-Roman tribe living in the Pyrenees region. Be aware that in Latin "Vasco" would be pronounced "wasko" with /w/ eventually evolving into /b/ and /β̞/ in Spanish (and Gascon).

    Do you have other sources that state that the Basques are also called Bashkir? I cannot seem to find reference to Ibn Khaldun calling the Basques as such.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Well, there are chance similarities possible but personally I have considered the similarity between Rasenna and Ruthenia.
    Basically the 'Rus' toponyms in De Administrando Imperio seem more Hungarian like, than Germanic.

    I will mention an example which is fairly straight forward. One of the Dnieper rapids is called 'in the language of the Rus' 'Leanti' because, he says, βράσμα νερού αποτελεί (βράσσω = shake violently, throw up, of the sea, νερό = water). Hungarian has a prefix le- (down) and a verb -ont (to pour), of unkown etymology afaiu.

    There seems to have been a movement, though, rather late possibly around the 5th century AD of people with more East Asian admixture than Khanty and Mansi people and high in haplogroup N.

    The Greek sources (Theophylact) point to a region close to or around Ufa (from Kara Itil/Atel) for the origins of Pannonian Avars (pseudo-Avars, Varchonitae).

    Only a part of the lexicon of Hungarian is Ugric, though.

    The conqueros seemed to have had mixed European origin (with Eastern elements) and were called by Greeks 'Turks' but the region of Pannonia had been affected by Goths early (before Avars), Great Moravia later etc
    'Rus' is of Old Norse origin. The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region and people originally known to themselves as the Rus'. One of the earliest written sources mentioning the people called Rus' (as Rhos) dates to 839 in the Annales Bertiniani. This chronicle identifies them as a Germanic tribe called the Swedes.

    Rus = Scandinavians = Swedes.

    According to the most prominent theory, the name Rus', like the Finnish name for Sweden (Ruotsi), is derived from an Old Norse term for "the men who row" (rods-) as rowing was the main method of navigating the rivers of Eastern Europe, and that it could be linked to the Swedish coastal area of Roslagen (the rowing crews) or Roden, as it was known in earlier times. The name Rus' would then have the same origin as the Finnish, Estonian, Võro and Northern Sami names for Sweden: Ruotsi, Rootsi, Roodsi and Ruoŧŧa. It is remarkable enough that the local Finnic and Permic peoples in northern Russia proper use the same (Rus'-related) name both for Sweden and Russia (depending on the language): thus the Veps name for Swedenand Swedish is Ročinma / Ročin,while in the neighboring Komi language the etymologically corresponding term Ročmu / Roč means already Russiaand Russian instead.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_...a_and_Ruthenia

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The source you provide seems to lose its meaning when translated into English and does not explicitly state that Bashkir = Basque. Basque people refer to themselves as "Euskaldunak", furthermore Basque and other forms of this term descend from the Latin word Vasco plural Vascones, a pre-Roman tribe living in the Pyrenees region. Be aware that in Latin "Vasco" would be pronounced "wasko" with /w/ eventually evolving into /b/ and /β̞/ in Spanish (and Gascon).

    Do you have other sources that state that the Basques are also called Bashkir? I cannot seem to find reference to Ibn Khaldun calling the Basques as such.
    There was certainly a land with the name of Bashkir in Europe in the Middle Ages but it was probably in modern Hungary, Austria or even France, not Spain.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=_J...page&q&f=false



    But the name of Basques sounded almost the same in Arabic and Persian, so they have been confused with each other, for example we know Basque people were called Bashkunsi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Gharsiya

    Anyways it is possible that bask-/bashk- names really related to each other too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    'Rus' is of Old Norse origin. The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region and people originally known to themselves as the Rus'. One of the earliest written sources mentioning the people called Rus' (as Rhos) dates to 839 in the Annales Bertiniani. This chronicle identifies them as a Germanic tribe called the Swedes.

    Rus = Scandinavians = Swedes.

    According to the most prominent theory, the name Rus', like the Finnish name for Sweden (Ruotsi), is derived from an Old Norse term for "the men who row" (rods-) as rowing was the main method of navigating the rivers of Eastern Europe, and that it could be linked to the Swedish coastal area of Roslagen (the rowing crews) or Roden, as it was known in earlier times. The name Rus' would then have the same origin as the Finnish, Estonian, Võro and Northern Sami names for Sweden: Ruotsi, Rootsi, Roodsi and Ruoŧŧa. It is remarkable enough that the local Finnic and Permic peoples in northern Russia proper use the same (Rus'-related) name both for Sweden and Russia (depending on the language): thus the Veps name for Swedenand Swedish is Ročinma / Ročin,while in the neighboring Komi language the etymologically corresponding term Ročmu / Roč means already Russiaand Russian instead.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_...a_and_Ruthenia
    But Jordanes talks about Rosomoni (the Rus men in Ossetic) in the east of Europe about 550 AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    But Jordanes talks about Rosomoni (the Rus men in Ossetic) in the east of Europe about 550 AD.
    Jordanes is referring to the Roxolani a Sarmatian tribe, not the Rus' who would found Kievan Rus'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    'Rus' is of Old Norse origin. The word Ruthenia originated as a Latin designation of the region and people originally known to themselves as the Rus'. One of the earliest written sources mentioning the people called Rus' (as Rhos) dates to 839 in the Annales Bertiniani. This chronicle identifies them as a Germanic tribe called the Swedes.

    Rus = Scandinavians = Swedes.
    No. First of all, I said that chance similarities are possible. Secondly the Vikings study showed people with R1b-U152, DF27 etc. and 'southern' ancestry etc. moving north before the 'Vikings' era (Vikings are a construct of romantic ethnonationalism). I have also seen that some of those who follow the 'Normanist' view about the origin of the Rus seem to think they were a population from Pomerania. Also, theoretically, they could have been from an area that is today Germanic speaking but not Germanic themselves etc.

    The rest are all speculative. But I really believe that the Rasna descended from those who were building the prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps. The name orginally could have spread with descendants of these people, originally. // But also sometimes it could have been applied to possibly unrelated people as an exonym, because some sources point to an association with the meaning 'red' or 'ruddy'

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Viking paper outlined that the "southern" European ancestry begins to make an appearance in the Early Viking Age (it was not present in the Iron Age), likely due to movements of people throughout Europe due to trade, etc.

    "Viking" was more of an activity, or occupation if you will. One of piracy, not an ethnic group. It is more accurate to refer to these Scandinavian raiding/settling groups active in this period as Scandinavians, however the term Viking offers a simplicity and does not lead to much confusion imo.

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    1 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Jordanes is referring to the Roxolani a Sarmatian tribe, not the Rus' who would found Kievan Rus'.
    We are talking the origin of Rus which could be neither Iranian nor Germanic but a very old name in the east of Europe from Etruscan or another non-IE language. In most of Persian/Arabic sources the Rus were a Turkic people who first found Rus Khaganate and many years later Kievan Rus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We are talking the origin of Rus which could be neither Iranian nor Germanic but a very old name in the east of Europe from Etruscan or another non-IE language. In most of Persian/Arabic sources the Rus were a Turkic people who first found Rus Khaganate and many years later Kievan Rus.
    I'm aware, however the Rus' Khaganate was set up by the Rus' people and the Rus' are described by all contemporary sources as "Norsemen". The Rus' Khaganate is a predecessor to both the Rurikid Dynasty and the Kievan Rus'. Secondly, the Rus' Khaganate was not strictly populated by only Rus' people, but also by Slavic, Finnic, Finno-Ugric, and Turkic people along with Rus' people. The etymology of Rus' has a perfectly reasonable explanation from Old Norse as previously mentioned a few posts back by another user, not to mention archaeological and genetic data showing there were Scandinavians active in Eastern Europe in locations known to be associated with Scandinavian activity there.

    I don't see any real convincing evidence pointing towards an Etruscan or other non-IE language being the origin for the term Rus'.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    As you read about the etymology of Etruscus: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Etruscus#cite_note-4 some scholars have proposed that the term might be connected to the Turkish autonym Türk.

    I think north of Eurasia should be generally considered as the land of Altaic, Uralic and some European non-IE people, there were certainly contacts between them in the ancient times, but IE-speaking people such as Iranian, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, ... came later to this region, probably in the 1st millennium BC, in the 2nd millennium BC they lived in the south of Eurasia, from India to south of Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post

    I think north of Eurasia should be generally considered as the land of Altaic, Uralic and some European non-IE people, there were certainly contacts between them in the ancient times, but IE-speaking people such as Iranian, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, ... came later to this region, probably in the 1st millennium BC, in the 2nd millennium BC they lived in the south of Eurasia, from India to south of Italy.
    It could be, they say yamnayans were dark complexioned, brown eyed people like today's west asian people so they could be Southern eurasian originally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    I'm aware, however the Rus' Khaganate was set up by the Rus' people and the Rus' are described by all contemporary sources as "Norsemen". The Rus' Khaganate is a predecessor to both the Rurikid Dynasty and the Kievan Rus'. Secondly, the Rus' Khaganate was not strictly populated by only Rus' people, but also by Slavic, Finnic, Finno-Ugric, and Turkic people along with Rus' people. The etymology of Rus' has a perfectly reasonable explanation from Old Norse as previously mentioned a few posts back by another user, not to mention archaeological and genetic data showing there were Scandinavians active in Eastern Europe in locations known to be associated with Scandinavian activity there.
    I am interested in which contemporary sources say they were Scandinavians.

    Constantine VII in DAI mentions some river rapids, and their names ρωσιστί and σκλαβηνιστί. But he also mentions their meaning. In general those of the 'Normanists' who haven't completely disregarded the text, imply that the meanings refer only to the Slavonic names. When I was reading the text I was thinking he was referring to both, though the syntax is consistent with both possibilities.

    The 5 Rus names he mentions are
    Ulvorsi (based on the text we expect something like 'island')
    Aifor (based on the text we expect something like 'nest' or something to do with pelicans and their nests)
    Varuforos (based on the text we expect something like 'great lake')
    Leanti (based on the text we expect something to do with movement of water)
    Strukun (based on the text we expect with a meaning like 'small')

    And there is also one
    Essupi (supposedly meant something like 'don't sleep' in both languages)

    Normanists have done various weird things with that source. Like changing λίμνη (lake) to δίνη etc.
    The etymologies you would find don't make much sense, are inconsistent and I doubt there would be semantic parallels in Germanic speaking areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I am interested in which contemporary sources say they were Scandinavians.
    Constantine VII in DAI mentions some river rapids, and their names ρωσιστί and σκλαβηνιστί. But he also mentions their meaning. In general those of the 'Normanists' who haven't completely disregarded the text, imply that the meanings refer only to the Slavonic names. When I was reading the text I was thinking he was referring to both, though the syntax is consistent with both possibilities.
    The 5 Rus names he mentions are
    Ulvorsi (based on the text we expect something like 'island')
    Aifor (based on the text we expect something like 'nest' or something to do with pelicans and their nests)
    Varuforos (based on the text we expect something like 'great lake')
    Leanti (based on the text we expect something to do with movement of water)
    Strukun (based on the text we expect with a meaning like 'small')
    And there is also one
    Essupi (supposedly meant something like 'don't sleep' in both languages)
    Normanists have done various weird things with that source. Like changing λίμνη (lake) to δίνη etc.
    The etymologies you would find don't make much sense, are inconsistent and I doubt there would be semantic parallels in Germanic speaking areas.
    I'm on my mobile at the moment so I can't quite scrounge for the sources as yet. However, I'll gladly link them when I'm at a desktop.
    Honestly, in my own opinion I would see at as much more likely the Rus' polities were multiethnic states of Slavic, Finno-Ugric, Turkic and some Scandinavian people along with other ethnolinguistic groups, considering the samples of Scandinavians in Eastern Europe from the Viking Genome paper it's reasonable to assume a multiethnic state.
    However, I don't see anything really convincing that would link Rus' to Rasna or anything Etruscan or Rhaetian.

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    There is possibility a relation between Rus and Latin/Old Persian Rus "village, country", compare to Persian Rustak "rustic". The Persian word seems to be a loanword but it is too old, so it couldn't be from Latin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Name of Basque is very similar to Bashkir (Baskara), R1b has a high frequency among Bashkirs too.
    completely irrelevant, Cyrus.
    the first element 'Bask' is a local pronounciation (local, in fact common to a vaste area from Northern Spain to Northern Corsica encompassing Gascogne and Languedoc) of 'Vask' = 'Wask' which gave *Gwask in Romance, we find in the modern name Gascogne - I 'm not sure at all that ethonyms in Bask- are endoethnonym - I think the Basque name themselves with a root like Euskal- in Euskladunak - the /v/ pronunciation of /w/ seems indicating the name passed through late Latin speakers that had lost the /w/ -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As you read about the etymology of Etruscus: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Etruscus#cite_note-4 some scholars have proposed that the term might be connected to the Turkish autonym Türk.
    I think north of Eurasia should be generally considered as the land of Altaic, Uralic and some European non-IE people, there were certainly contacts between them in the ancient times, but IE-speaking people such as Iranian, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, ... came later to this region, probably in the 1st millennium BC, in the 2nd millennium BC they lived in the south of Eurasia, from India to south of Italy.
    I do not know where you are going with this, but turkic
    people only arrived in modern turkey only 1000 years ago. If this etruscans are related to turkey , then it has nothing to do with turks
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    completely irrelevant, Cyrus.
    the first element 'Bask' is a local pronounciation (local, in fact common to a vaste area from Northern Spain to Northern Corsica encompassing Gascogne and Languedoc) of 'Vask' = 'Wask' which gave *Gwask in Romance, we find in the modern name Gascogne - I 'm not sure at all that ethonyms in Bask- are endoethnonym - I think the Basque name themselves with a root like Euskal- in Euskladunak - the /v/ pronunciation of /w/ seems indicating the name passed through late Latin speakers that had lost the /w/ -
    It is possible that the original name of Bashkirs was almost the same as Euskara/Euskal, because we know Persians/Turks/Arabs used a very similar names for Basques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I do not know where you are going with this, but turkic
    people only arrived in modern turkey only 1000 years ago. If this etruscans are related to turkey , then it has nothing to do with turks
    I believe those who migrated from modern Turkey to Italy were an IE people, not Etruscans. But Turkic people who built Kurgan (Turkic word for Tumulus) in the Caspian steppe related to Etruscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It is possible that the original name of Bashkirs was almost the same as Euskara/Euskal, because we know Persians/Turks/Arabs used a very similar names for Basques.
    And those names are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I believe those who migrated from modern Turkey to Italy were an IE people, not Etruscans. But Turkic people who built Kurgan (Turkic word for Tumulus) in the Caspian steppe related to Etruscans.
    Yeah, modern scholars call them Kurgans, using the Turkic word, but that doesn't mean the Kurgans in the context of Bronze Age Europe have anything to do with Turkic populations.

    What is your source for these Caspian Steppe tumuli that you claim are connected to Etruscans?

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