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Thread: Basque, Iberian, Etruscan, Rhaetian,... Y-DNA haplogroup

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    Basque, Iberian, Etruscan, Rhaetian,... Y-DNA haplogroup

    We know from at least the 1st millennium BC these non-Indo-European people lived in different parts of Europe, what was the main haplogroup among them?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    It is not known, there have not yet been studies that have revealed their Y-DNA.


    For the Etruscans we have instead their mtDNA: mtDNA U5a, mtDNA JT (of course the subclades of JT) and mtDNA H1b. So Neolithic and even Mesolithic lines.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It is not known, there have not yet been studies that have revealed their Y-DNA.


    For the Etruscans we have instead their mtDNA: mtDNA U5a, mtDNA JT (of course the subclades of JT) and mtDNA H1b. So Neolithic and even Mesolithic lines.

    These mtDNA haplogroups differ from Indo-European ones or not? I actually want to know how we can distinguish between IE and non-IE people in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    These mtDNA haplogroups differ from Indo-European ones or not? I actually want to know how we can distinguish between IE and non-IE people in Europe.
    It would be necessary to check in the studies that have been published so far on ancient samples. In some cases they're distinct, in others they're not. For example, according to Maciamo, U5a is most common today in north-east Europe and have been found so far in Mesolithic Russia (U5a1) and Sweden (U5a1 and U5a2). U5a1b1 has been found in Chalcolithic Germany (Bell Beaker) and in the Unetice culture. Among the Etruscans it could have come with the Bell Beaker and not with a Neolithic culture.

    In general, if EEF and Yamnaya's proto-Indoeuropeans were probably more distinct not only in autosomal DNA, but also in Y-DNA and mtDNA, but in the formation of Indo-Europeans there are also Neolithic populations that are absorbed by the previous ones.

    The other mistake is to believe that from the end of the Bronze Age - the beginning of the Iron Age - a language (whether IE or not) in Europe corresponds always to a genetic profile. Modern Basques are an excellent example: they still speak a non IE language today, but their DNA also contains steppe DNA. Even the Etruscans, on the two avalaible PCAs (one academic, and the other of unclear origin) according to their genetic position in the PCA may have had a percentage of steppe DNA, even if they continued to speak a non-IE language during the Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It would be necessary to check in the studies that have been published so far on ancient samples. In some cases they're distinct, in others they're not. For example, according to Maciamo, U5a is most common today in north-east Europe and have been found so far in Mesolithic Russia (U5a1) and Sweden (U5a1 and U5a2). U5a1b1 has been found in Chalcolithic Germany (Bell Beaker) and in the Unetice culture. Among the Etruscans it could have come with the Bell Beaker and not with a Neolithic culture.

    In general, if EEF and Yamnaya's proto-Indoeuropeans were probably more distinct not only in autosomal DNA, but also in Y-DNA and mtDNA, but in the formation of Indo-Europeans there are also Neolithic populations that are absorbed by the previous ones.

    The other mistake is to believe that from the end of the Bronze Age - the beginning of the Iron Age - a language (whether IE or not) in Europe corresponds always to a genetic profile. Modern Basques are an excellent example: they still speak a non IE language today, but their DNA also contains steppe DNA. Even the Etruscans, on the two avalaible PCAs (one academic, and the other of unclear origin) according to their genetic position in the PCA may have had a percentage of steppe DNA, even if they continued to speak a non-IE language during the Iron Age.
    I think it actually shows that Indo-European migrations had an insignificant effect on DNA of Europeans, it is also possible that the majority of steppe people spoke non-IE languages too.
    What do you think about haplogroup E-V13 or J2:



    It seems to be clear that at least among Basques, these haplogroups have always had a low frequency.

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    I find the slight increase of E-V13 in Spain quite interesting; could it be the Visigoths? They spent some time in the Balkans and V13 and it has been found in remains linked to Visigoths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I find the slight increase of E-V13 in Spain quite interesting; could it be the Visigoths? They spent some time in the Balkans and V13 and it has been found in remains linked to Visigoths.
    Conquest and migration are two different issues, about conquests even in some cases that we see strong cultural influences, like the conquest of Anatolia by the Turks, we don't see any major genetic influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The other mistake is to believe that from the end of the Bronze Age - the beginning of the Iron Age - a language (whether IE or not) in Europe corresponds always to a genetic profile. Modern Basques are an excellent example: they still speak a non IE language today, but their DNA also contains steppe DNA.
    Yes, although Basque-speaking does correspond to a genetic profile. It is strongly associated with (i) yDNA R1b-DF27, and (ii) aDNA Atapuerca. Basques still speak an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    No one knows whether the language came from the east or is one of many European Neolithic languages.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, although Basque-speaking does correspond to a genetic profile. It is strongly associated with (i) yDNA R1b-DF27, and (ii) aDNA Atapuerca. Basques still speak an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals.
    The Basques are exactly the opposite of what you claim, since they speak a non-IE language and instead also have steppe DNA.

    The rest is just speculation. There is no evidence that the Basque language is an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The Basques are exactly the opposite of what you claim, since they speak a non-IE language and instead also have steppe DNA.
    What you say I claim is exactly the opposite of what I do claim. I said Basques still speak an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals. In other words, neither they nor their main steppe DNA-bearing ancestors were IE speakers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    The rest is just speculation. There is no evidence that the Basque language is an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals.
    There is evidence that Basque-speaking, yDNA DF27 and aDNA Atapuerca-best-fit percentages are all associated with each other; and the earliest Atapuerca aDNA is clearly Eastern in origin, fitting much better with steppe-infused Balkan samples than with Iberian ones.

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    I believe that if they sample prehistoric pile dwellings (stilt houses) around the Alps they would find L51 and if they sample Terramare they would find U152.

    Many ancient samples with so called 'steppe' admixture do not have any real recent admixture from the steppes proper.

    Their autosomal profile and phenotypes could have been most similar to Central European Bell Beakers, but ultimately they may descend from a Villabruna related population (but influenced by other movements too)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, although Basque-speaking does correspond to a genetic profile. It is strongly associated with (i) yDNA R1b-DF27, and (ii) aDNA Atapuerca. Basques still speak an evolved version of a language brought by an early (4th millennium BC) group of Eastern people whose descendants have been less affected by admixture with later IE-speaking arrivals.
    Name of Basque is very similar to Bashkir (Baskara), R1b has a high frequency among Bashkirs too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Name of Basque is very similar to Bashkir (Baskara), R1b has a high frequency among Bashkirs too.
    Irrelevant. Bashkir are filled, I mean filled with R1a, depending on your sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Irrelevant. Bashkir are filled, I mean filled with R1a, depending on your sample.
    I think you are wrong.



    It is interesting to know that Andalusian historian Ibn Khaldun called Basque as Bashkir too. (Muqaddimah)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To make things even more puzzling there's district called Edreskan in Western Afghanistan so could they have some relation with Etruscans too I have heared Etruscans were originally from Asia minor.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    To make things even more puzzling there's district called Edreskan in Western Afghanistan so could they have some relation with Etruscans too I have heared Etruscans were originally from Asia minor.
    Etruscans were said to be of Lydian origin in Asia Minor, Lydians who spoke an Indo-European language, or from Thessaly in Greece or autochthonous from Italy. Today there is more consensus that the Etruscans were completely indigenous from Italy, also Etruscan DNA proves it. In any case, the Etruscans had nothing to do with Western Afghanistan.

    Edreskan doesn't sound at all like Etruria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nornosh View Post
    To make things even more puzzling there's district called Edreskan in Western Afghanistan so could they have some relation with Etruscans too I have heared Etruscans were originally from Asia minor.
    Etruscans were calling themselves Rasna.
    Dionysius says 'Rasenna'.

    The movement from Asia Minor was rejected during the antiquity already by Dionysius who considered them native (though he mention other people in the wider region before them Siculi, Umbrians, he also mentions a movement of Pelasgians from Thessaly a little before the 'Trojan War' (He considers them to have been Hellenes). Movements of Ligurians are also consistent with what he writes.

    He clearly says that the Lydians had a different language but also different laws and customs.

    There was one cultural similarity with a population in Asia , those called by the Greeks 'Mossynoeci' (that is a Greek exonym but the mossyn-/mossun part could have been a native word). He says that he Tyrrhenians (Etruscans/Rasna) were the first in the region to build 'high wooden palisades resembling towers' and that the Mossynoeci were doing something similar. (Even if that points to movement, which it does not, the direction could have been opposite).

    The interesting thing about the Mossynoeci is the following:
    According to Xenophon's Anabasis (5.4.26-34), the Mossynoeci were "fair-complexioned and white-skinned", "with their backs variegated and their breasts tattooed with patterns of all sorts of flowers".

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Etruscans were calling themselves Rasna.
    Dionysius says 'Rasenna'.

    The movement from Asia Minor was rejected during the antiquity already by Dionysius who considered them native (though he mention other people in the wider region before them Siculi, Umbrians, he also mentions a movement of Pelasgians from Thessaly a little before the 'Trojan War' (He considers them to have been Hellenes). Movements of Ligurians are also consistent with what he writes.

    He clearly says that the Lydians had a different language but also different laws and customs.

    There was one cultural similarity with a population in Asia , those called by the Greeks 'Mossynoeci' (that is a Greek exonym but the mossyn-/mossun part could have been a native word). He says that he Tyrrhenians (Etruscans/Rasna) were the first in the region to build 'high wooden palisades resembling towers' and that the Mossynoeci were doing something similar. (Even if that points to movement, which it does not, the direction could have been opposite).

    The interesting thing about the Mossynoeci is the following:
    According to Xenophon's Anabasis (5.4.26-34), the Mossynoeci were "fair-complexioned and white-skinned", "with their backs variegated and their breasts tattooed with patterns of all sorts of flowers".
    Rasna sounds like the names of some ancient Iranian and Slavic people in the East of Europe, like Ruthenia and Roxolani/Rosomoni, there are many places with the names of Rasna/Rosna/Rasina in Croatia, Macedonia, Czechia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, ... it seems to be really possible that some Etruscan tribes lived in the east of Europe before the arrival of Iranian and Slavic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Rasna sounds like the names of some ancient Iranian and Slavic people in the East of Europe, like Ruthenia and Roxolani/Rosomoni, there are many places with the names of Rasna/Rosna/Rasina in Croatia, Macedonia, Czechia, Romania, Serbia, Greece, ... it seems to be really possible that some Etruscan tribes lived in the east of Europe before the arrival of Iranian and Slavic tribes.

    Rasna is indeed spread in many Slavic countries as a toponym, but they're most likely homonyms with the Etruscan Rasna.

    The Etruscan Rasenna is thought by some scholars to be a name based on an eponym, instead for other scholars Rasna in Etruscan means the "people". At the moment we don't know, they're just hypotheses. Generally speaking it cannot be ruled out that the eponym shares some ancient Indo-European roots, which is still found today in Slavic or Iranic languages, as it cannot be ruled out that it is only homophony or homonymy.

    The Etruscan language is pre-Indo-European but shows two types of contacts with Indo-European languages. A very ancient one that dates back to the Bronze Age when Indo-European migrations arrived in Italy and in Etruria most likely from north-east, and a second one more recent due to contacts with Italic languages ​​mainly.

    Then there is the question of why the Greeks called them Tyrrhenians and whether Tyrrhenians or Tyrsenians (attic Greek Τυρρηνοί Turrhēnoi, Ionic Τυρσηνοί Tursēnoi, Doric Τυρσανοί Tursānoi) and Tusci (from Latin Tuscus, Umbrian Turskum, later Umbria Tuscom, as they were called by the Italics) are connected.

    Here is the hypothesis that more anciently the Etruscans might have called themselves Tursa. But there is no inscription reporting it to over 13,000 Etruscan inscriptions, there is only one family name which vaguely resembles this possible endonym found at the border between the Etruscan and Umbrian world.

    This is also likely a homonymy, but the word Tursa is attested in Scottish Gaelic with a meaning similar to the word "tower" which is the meaning that is usually attributed to the word Tyrrhenian. Is Tursa in Scottish Gaelic a pre-Indoeuropean word? Unfortunately I can't find anything, but it's the name of a Neolithic site in Scotland.


    * tursa (Scottish Gaelic) m (genitive singular tursa, plural tursachan) standing stone, megalith, monolith, menhir

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tursa#Scottish_Gaelic


    "Tursachan means standing stones in Gaelic. It takes its name from the large Neolithic stone circle located near the village of Callanish (Gaelic: Calanais) on the west coast of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, Scotland."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callanish_Stones
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 04-08-19 at 17:15.

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    rasna basically means of breed/kin, or some animal that is of good stock, like a race winning horse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    rasna basically means breed/kin, or some animal that is of good stock, like a race winning horse
    I guess that's what Rasna means in Slavic languages, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I guess that's what Rasna means in Slavic languages, right?

    in south slavic at least

    it derives from rasa, which means race, like race of people

    for other slavic languages i would need to check, it its probably same root with different endings, like rassia, or rasny... etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post
    in south slavic at least

    it derives from rasa, which means race, like race of people

    for other slavic languages i would need to check, it its probably same root with different endings, like rassia, or rasny... etc
    In Italian it's "razza", in English is "race", but how do you explain that it's present in place names in the Slavic world including in northern Slavic countries? Are we sure it's the same word?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    In Italian it's "razza", in English is "race", but how do you explain that it's present in place names in the Slavic world including in northern Slavic countries? Are we sure it's the same word?
    because all Slavic languages started from same language, much like Latin languages today started from Latin, there are differences , but usually root is the same.

    South Slavic languages as considered to be closest to original

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