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Thread: Iron Age Gauls: brand new news!

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    Iron Age Gauls: brand new news!

    Here under a new paper about Normandy and Burgundia (NF Burgoyne!) Iron Age Gaulish sites -
    Under paywall allas! the Bernard Sécher Free Blog speaks about it in french : it seems they did not make an autosomal analysis, but I have not read the paper. (I hope it has not been opened a similar thread in another place here).
    I can just copy the B. Sécher abstract if necessary?

    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jasrep.2019.101942

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    All Y-R1b, seemingly, but the depth is very shallow if I believe B. Sécher -

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks to Bernard SECHER

    jeudi 1 août 2019
    Etude archéo-génétique de deux communautés Françaises de l'Âge du Fer

    Par Bernard Sécher le jeudi 1 août 2019, 19:12 - ADN ancien
    Les études d'ADN ancien permettent d'adresser des questions archéologiques et anthropologiques à l'échelle continentale ou à l'échelle locale d'un site. La variabilité génétique d'une population implique que l'utilisation d'un faible nombre d'échantillons peut conduire à des erreurs d'interprétation. De plus l'accès à certains sites funéraires pouvait être limité à un groupe spécifique non représentatif de toute la population.

    Claire-Elise Fischer et ses collègues viennent de publier un papier intitulé: Multi-scale archaeogenetic study of two French Iron Age communities: From internal social- to broad-scale population dynamics. Ils ont étudié les marqueurs uniparentaux de deux communautés Celtiques du nord de la France situées à Urville-Nacqueville au bout de la presqu'île du Cotentin (datée entre 120 et 80 av. JC.) et à Gurgy 'Les Noisats' dans l'Yonne (datée entre 300 et 100 av. JC.). Urville-Nacqueville est un port localisé sur les côtes de la Manche. Il est caractérisé par la présence d'un secteur artisanal et d'un vaste cimetière. Ce dernier est organisé autour d'un enclos carré, et il inclut 112 tombes identifiées contenant au minimum 120 individus:


    La nécropole de Gurgy est localisée dans le bassin Parisien sur le territoire des anciens Senons. Elle consiste en un tumulus d'environ 30m de diamètre incluant 35 tombes comprenant 40 individus:

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    De manière intéressante l'Âge du Fer Européen est la période archéologique la plus ancienne pour laquelle une documentation écrite est disponible. Ces textes décrivent la Gaule et les habitudes sociales de ses habitants bien qu'ils ne soient pas écrits par les Gaulois eux-mêmes, mais par les Grecs et les Romains.

    L'analyse d'ADN a été réalisée à Urville-Nacqueville sur 51 individus issus d'inhumations distribuées en différents points du cimetière. Ces échantillons reprennent ceux de la précédente étude de ce site auxquels les auteurs ont ajouté six nouveaux individus. 32 échantillons sont compris à l'extérieur de l'enclos et 19 à l'intérieur. Tous les individus du tumulus de Gurgy ont été testés génétiquement dans cette étude.

    Les auteurs ont testé 18 SNPs mitochondriaux et 10 SNPs du chromosome Y. Ils ont également séquencé la région HVR1 de l'ADN mitochondrial.

    Les auteurs ont obtenu 42 haplogroupes mitochondriaux et 43 séquences de la région HVR1 sur le site d'Urville-Nacqueville. Ils ont de plus obtenu 17 profils partiels sur le chromosome Y. Sur le site de Gurgy, ils ont obtenu 27 haplogroupes mitochondriaux, 23 séquences de la région HVR1 et 19 profils partiels ou complets sur le chromosome Y.

    Les individus d'Urville-Nacqueville appartiennent aux haplogroupes mitochondriaux: K1, J1, H, H1, H2, H3, H5, H6/8, H11, U4, U5a, U5b, I, V, T1 et T2. Il y a 27 haplotypes différents. Neuf sont partagés par au moins deux individus indiquant ainsi une possible relation maternelle. Cependant parmi ces haplotypes certains sont très fréquents et n'indiquent donc pas forcément une relation maternelle.

    Les individus de Gurgy appartiennent aux haplogroupes mitochondriaux: H, H1, H3, HV, J1, J2, K, U5a et T2. Il y a 13 haplotypes différents dont trois sont partagés par au moins deux individus.

    Tous les profils du chromosome Y obtenus à Urville-Nacqueville ou à Gurgy appartiennent à l'haplogroupe R* ou R1b. Cependant les marqueurs testés ne permettent pas de définir plus précisément les différentes branches de cet haplogroupe. Ces lignages paternels sont liés aux migrations massives de la fin du Néolithique et du début de l'Âge du Bronze en Europe en provenance des steppes. Ces migrations sont responsables d'un turnover génétique impressionnant dans les populations Européennes pour lequel les haplogroupes du Néolithique ont été remplacés par les haplogroupes R1a et R1b.

    Les diversités génétiques maternelles ont été calculées pour les deux groupes. Les résultats sont de 0,969 pour Urville-Nacqueville et 0.885 pour Gurgy. La diversité est donc plus importante à Urville-Nacqueville qu'à Gurgy.

    Ces résultats sont caractéristiques de sociétés patrilocales pour lesquelles les hommes bougent peu et les femmes bougent beaucoup au moment du mariage. Ils sont en accord avec les écrits historiques qui décrivent des échanges de femmes entre groupes (civitas).

    Le site d'Urville-Nacqueville a été identifié comme une place d'échange importante avec le sud de l'Angleterre, mais aussi avec l'Atlantique. Ceci peut expliquer la plus grande diversité génétique maternelle obtenue sur ce site par rapport à Gurgy.

    A Urville-Nacqueville, les auteurs ont comparé les résultats obtenus à l'intérieur et à l'extérieur de l'enclos carré situé dans le cimetière. Ainsi la diversité est plus grande à l'extérieur de l'enclos (0,983) qu'à l’intérieur (0,976). Ce résultat pourrait suggérer que l'intérieur de l'enclos à été utilisé pour un groupes spécifique de la communauté. Notamment les haplogroupes J1 et T sont exclus de l'intérieur de l'enclos. Ces éléments se rapprochent des résultats archéologiques qui suggèrent que les enclos des cimetières pourraient être dédiés à une famille dominante. Malheureusement la faible résolution des analyses des lignages paternels dans cette étude ne permettent pas de valider ce point. Pour le cas particulier d'Urville-Nacqueville l'enclos correspond au début de l'utilisation du cimetière car certaines tombes sont à cheval sur l'enclos indiquant ainsi qu'il a été détruit avant la fin de son utilisation. L'enclos pourrait ainsi avoir été utilisé par le groupe fondateur de la communauté.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Always from B. SECHER's blog:
    ...
    Les auteurs ont ensuite effectué une Analyse en Composantes Principales basée sur la fréquence des haplogroupes mitochondriaux:


    La première composante sépare les chasseurs-cueilleurs (à droite) des fermiers du Néolithique (à gauche), et la seconde composante sépare les groupes de l'Âge du Bronze (en bas). Les groupes d'Urville-Nacqueville et de Gurgy se regroupent avec les groupes de l'Âge du Fer d'Espagne et d'Allemagne. Ces groupes de l'Âge du Fer restent proches des groupes de l'Âge du Bronze indiquant ainsi une continuité génétique maternelle entre ces périodes.

    Il y a de plus un clair héritage des steppes dans les groupes Celtes Français. Ce point est suggéré notamment par la forte fréquence de l'haplogroupe H et la valeur notable de la fréquence des haplogroupes U4 et I. Ces caractéristiques sont communes avec les groupes de l'Âge du Bronze ayant un fort héritage des steppes. Enfin l'héritage des steppes est confirmé par la majorité frappante des haplogroupes R* et R1b du chromosome Y.

    Enfin la troisième composante de la PCA regroupe les communautés d'Urville-nacqueville et de Gurgy avec le groupe des fermiers Néolithiques de France et le groupe des Campaniformes d'Espagne. Le lien avec l'Espagne peut-être expliqué par des échanges le long de l'Atlantique.

    Les auteurs ont ensuite refait ces même analyses en séparant la communauté d'Urville-Nacqueville en deux selon que les individus sont situés à l'intérieur ou à l'extérieur de l'enclos du cimetière. Notamment les deux groupes se situent dans des positions différentes sur la PCA. Ainsi, le groupe situé à l'extérieur se situe plus proche du groupe de Gurgy, alors que le groupe situé à l'intérieur se situe plus proche des groupes d'Espagne de la fin du Néolithique ou du Chalcolithique.

    En conclusion le groupe d'Urville-Nacqueville est plus cosmopolite en accord avec sa situation géographique sur les côtes de la Manche, alors que le groupe de Gurgy n'inclue que les individus d'une communauté locale. Le site d'Urville-Nacqueville a été fondé par une famille dominante ou un petit groupe qui a déposé les morts à l'intérieur d'un enclos, avant de s'ouvrir à des gens de l'extérieur.

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    Thanks for sharing, Moesan. That's very interesting. I was wondering whether other Y-haplogroups would show up alongside R1b, such as G2a-L497 and E-V13, which I believe were also spread by Hallstatt and La Tène Celts. It's a shame that the R1b clades aren't available. It would have shed some lights on the origins of R1b-L21 in Northwest France. Was it already there during the Iron Age, or did it all come from Britain from the 5th century onwards?
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    Great find, Moesan! Thanks for sharing!
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    @Maciamo
    It's just a picking in Wikipedia:


    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340+ : Marqueur Menapii (Ménapien).
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > FGC9784+ : Type irlandais no 2 (Irish Type II) : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Irlande.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique, en Écosse et dans le Yorkshire.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624 > BY621+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique et en Écosse.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624 > BY621 > BY616+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY4148+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Suède à l'ouest du Golfe_de_Botnie.


    another Wiki info about Menapii says this Belgae tribe, supposed Celtic, after having fought a long time against Rome, provided troops of mercenaries to Rome, whose someones were based in Britain - here above we can see the so called 'Menapian' clade appears among Irish people today.
    I don't know what credit to give to these affirmations, to date. I have to dig up if I can.
    Just to say something! L21 origin is still uncertain.

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    ok nice :)
    h3 was found among them but which subclades underneath it ?
    which h3 version was typical of gaul ...... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Maciamo
    It's just a picking in Wikipedia:


    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340+ : Marqueur Menapii (Ménapien).
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > FGC9784+ : Type irlandais no 2 (Irish Type II) : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Irlande.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique, en Écosse et dans le Yorkshire.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624 > BY621+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique et en Écosse.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY624 > BY621 > BY616+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Belgique.
    • L21 > DF13 > DF1/L513 > S5668 > Z16340 > BY4148+ : Marqueur Ménapien présent en Suède à l'ouest du Golfe_de_Botnie.


    another Wiki info about Menapii says this Belgae tribe, supposed Celtic, after having fought a long time against Rome, provided troops of mercenaries to Rome, whose someones were based in Britain - here above we can see the so called 'Menapian' clade appears among Irish people today.
    I don't know what credit to give to these affirmations, to date. I have to dig up if I can.
    Just to say something! L21 origin is still uncertain.
    I wouldn't trust this source. No Menapian or ancient Belgic DNA has been tested. This L21 clade is typical of Ireland. A few samples show up in Scandinavia and Yorkshire probably because they were brought there by the Vikings (as slaves) from Ireland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wouldn't trust this source. No Menapian or ancient Belgic DNA has been tested. This L21 clade is typical of Ireland. A few samples show up in Scandinavia and Yorkshire probably because they were brought there by the Vikings (as slaves) from Ireland.
    I was prudent in my post, for good reasons (and I thought you are very interested in haplos and subclades stories). I had not heard of ancient DNA of Belgae; I suppose they base their naming upon subclades found among today North-Sea Belgians (so Flemings)...
    That said my todate credo (I don't put too much money on it by prudence) is that L21 gave birth first in N-W continental Europe and knew a "baby boom" in Cornwall (or close around) or in Ireland -

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    - celtic burial type is like mycenaean.

    see the below one, same as a mycenanean in circle B, which I called zeus. This type is connected to altai petroglyph, chinzese "Di(lord)" and bird shape in scythian culture (sky). One scythian in Urkain was buried like that also. So celtic people would not be related with BB people.

    Two Hallstatt samples from Bylany, Bohemia (ca. 836-780 BC), by
    Damgaard et al. Nature (2018), one of them of hg. R1b-U152.:


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/mor...try-more-maps/

    sythian:
    www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20warrior%20skeleton%20in%2 0Cherkasy%20Oblast%20Regional%20Studies%20Museum.j pg

    Last edited by johen; 14-08-19 at 21:25.

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    @Johen
    We are not sure of the first dates of Celtic colonisation in Western Europe - La Tène culture is relatively late and it's said that Celts had contacts with the Scythians or at least the Scythian art -
    the relation between BB's (which ones?) and Celts is unclear yet; I'm tempted to separate first genuine BB's from the northern and central Europe people we call BB's around 2200 BC; I think these last ones, all the way, provided a strong autosomals and even Y-haplo's basis to future well formed Celts - only guesses to date

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Johen
    We are not sure of the first dates of Celtic colonisation in Western Europe - La Tène culture is relatively late and it's said that Celts had contacts with the Scythians or at least the Scythian art -
    the relation between BB's (which ones?) and Celts is unclear yet; I'm tempted to separate first genuine BB's from the northern and central Europe people we call BB's around 2200 BC; I think these last ones, all the way, provided a strong autosomals and even Y-haplo's basis to future well formed Celts - only guesses to date
    "abstracts;

    in the mid-first b.c. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the eurasian steppe, from hungary to china and siberia. carried largely by iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." the precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. many have stressed antecedents at ziwiye in iran while some find sources in china's western chou culture. since 1980, the precedence of arzhan on the uppermpst yenisey has become evident. a developmental chain from okunevo to karasuk and tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.

    "conclusion:
    to summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the okunevo culture. ---- in the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of hunno-sarmatian tribes, in celto-germanic culture, in viking culture, and in ancient rusiian arts "

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Johen
    We are not sure of the first dates of Celtic colonisation in Western Europe - La Tène culture is relatively late and it's said that Celts had contacts with the Scythians or at least the Scythian art -
    the relation between BB's (which ones?) and Celts is unclear yet; I'm tempted to separate first genuine BB's from the northern and central Europe people we call BB's around 2200 BC; I think these last ones, all the way, provided a strong autosomals and even Y-haplo's basis to future well formed Celts - only guesses to date

    For the celts to dominate Central and South Germany with their "capital" being Glauberg in Hesse Germany , it would seem to be the upper danube river, south Germany should be origins of celts in europe

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    - celtic burial type is like mycenaean.

    see the below one, same as a mycenanean in circle B, which I called zeus. This type is connected to altai petroglyph, chinzese "Di(lord)" and bird shape in scythian culture (sky). One scythian in Urkain was buried like that also. So celtic people would not be related with BB people.

    Two Hallstatt samples from Bylany, Bohemia (ca. 836-780 BC), by
    Damgaard et al. Nature (2018), one of them of hg. R1b-U152.:


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/08/mor...try-more-maps/

    sythian:
    www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20warrior%20skeleton%20in%2 0Cherkasy%20Oblast%20Regional%20Studies%20Museum.j pg

    @Johen:
    I have no opposition to what you wrote here, only questions; La Tène is late so I don't see any obstacle to Celts and Scythians (or pops close to Scythians) contacts I was focalizing on art -
    Hallstatt is older (not only Celtic, I think); concerning sepultures, people can change it by time, but here I'm not knowledged; ATW:
    1- the link « Damgaard and al (Nature 2018) » sends me directly on Quiles blog !
    2- if I understand well (not sure), the Hallstatt « Celt » has a sepulture close to a Mycenian’s one and the La Tène Celt has one close to a Scythian’s one : so Celts had diverse modes of sepultures ? I don’t see what conclusion all that lead us to -
    3- so the only links would be art between Celts, Mycenians and Scythians ? Which Celts ? If La Tène, it’s late and I said already I had nothing against the idea of exchanges ; this doesn’t lead us to ethnic or genetic origins -
    4- you say one Halstatt Celt was of the Y-R1b-U152 clade ; OK ; but BB’s had already this clade among them, at least 4 of them, of the few which have been deeply determined, and according to what I read they were found as well in West as in East BB’s territories -
    I appreciate the docs you join often to your posts and I thank you for them, but concerning conclusions, I’m a bit lost in this very case. Surely you ‘ll develop -
    & apart: Coon wrote there were some links between the mean cranial shapes of the IA Celts ("Kymric type" or "Iron Age Celtic type") and some Slavs tribes and Scythians tribes (he did not precise: surely rather the East-Europe Scythians of discussed origins); some element here???

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    For the celts to dominate Central and South Germany with their "capital" being Glauberg in Hesse Germany , it would seem to be the upper danube river, south Germany should be origins of celts in europe

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glauberg
    Saying Celts formed in S-Germany doesn't say nothing about the datings -
    I don't believe BB's (of C- & N-Europe) spoke a Celtic language, but I think they spoke an I-E's one, archaic, or they learned it soon enough - I think (with still no certitude, I hesitated a long time about their IE "identity") they provided a big part of the future auDNA making of Celts and that Celtic language is a Central Europe BB's later evolution with addition of some others I-E influences or local evolution separating them from others western IE speakers; but I'm not sure we are obliged to wait for Urnfields or IA to speak of proto-Celtic (not pré-Celtic).
    again, I don't speak by force of the first BB potters of Portugal!

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    contacts between finnic and celtic?

    I don't know about their linguistic relationship, but the title reminds me of seima turbino expansion 1500bc, and a fact that Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Italic and Celtic do NOT form a separate definite clade inside IE languages, like Indian and Iranian IE languages do. Geneticists try to connect them each other by the steppe admixture(origin of yamna), even if neolithic WSHG and copper-age Namazga have EHG and CHG.
    David Anthony now think PIE was created by CHG and Pre-uralic in the east europe, while I thought that the PIE in the triangle zone of Karelia, Hotu cave and lake baikal by mixing EHG and CHG since a few years ago.
    If the scholars are correct, I think major languages in europe would have one clade.

    despite a prolific body of loanword research in the finnic languages, there have been few proposals of contacts between finnic and celtic, either in the way of celtic borrowings in finnic or finnic or uralic borrowings in celtic. occasionally, however, such proposals have been made, and recently, there have been suggestions of finnic or uralic borrowings in celtic either through an intermediate substratal language or directly. specifically, schrijver (2001) has suggested a few celtic etymologies of ultimately uralic origins mediated through a substratum language dubbed the ‘language of geminates’. this north european substratum was marked by the alternation of long and short, as well as prenasalized word-internal consonants, and appears to have been neither indo-european, nor uralic. hyllested (2010) has noted a number of possible finnic borrowings in celtic and more recently (hyllested 2016) proposed finnic etymologies for three celtic terms for ‘pig’. this raises the question of whether more such etymologies can be found to the extent of making it worthwhile to speculate on the chronology and historical background of such putative finnic-celtic contacts. below, i will first comment in detail the proposals made by schrijver (2001, 1997) and hyllested (2010, 2016) and will then add a few proposals of my own, which include three possible borrowings of celtic origin in finnic. i will then turn to the question of whether a plausible historical context for such contacts can be established, which is far from obvious 1 .
    https://www.academia.edu/40045312/Co...nic_and_Celtic


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    Did celtic people also worship serpent god like aryan?
    their patterns clearly connects the celts to aryan.



    Nagamandala is a religious ritual theater in the cultural region of Tulu Nadu

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    The cross patterns are typical Anglo Saxon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    The cross patterns are typical Anglo Saxon.
    It seems someones consider the crosses with anexternal circle/ring are celtic, the anglo-saxon ones would not have this type of ring, spite they were looking very close otherwise -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It seems someones consider the crosses with anexternal circle/ring are celtic, the anglo-saxon ones would not have this type of ring, spite they were looking very close otherwise -
    The 'form' of the cross may be known today as the 'Celtic cross', but the decorative pattern used here, is typical 'Anglo-Saxon' ( Anglian ).

    The 'wheeled head' cross type designs are believed to of developed from an Anglo Scandinavian tradition founded on the 'Isle of Man' , and developed elsewhere from this, in the 9th/10th century, reaching Ireland, Wales, and South west Scotland, etc, and some believe they were actually based on the Anglian, St Cuthberts 'cross'.

    The Anglo Saxons may well of had these type's, but many early Anglo Saxon styled ones are believed to of been destroyed, especially later during the reformation.

    The 'Celtic Cross' or 'Irish cross', (became more fashionable due to the resurgence of the Irish Catholic religion in the 19th century ).
    Last edited by paul333; 31-08-19 at 18:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    The 'form' of the cross may be known today as the 'Celtic cross', but the decorative pattern used, is typical 'Anglo-Saxon' ( Anglian ).

    The 'wheeled head' cross type designs are believed to of developed from an Anglo Scandinavian tradition founded on the 'Isle of Man' , and developed elsewhere from this, in the 9th/10th century, reaching Ireland, Wales, and South west Scotland, etc, and some believe they were actually based on the Anglian, St Cuthberts 'cross'.

    The Anglo Saxons may well of had these type's, but many early Anglo Saxon styled ones are believed to of been destroyed, especially later during the reformation.

    The 'Celtic Cross' or 'Irish cross', became more fashionable due to the resurgence of the Irish Catholic religion in the 19th century.
    Some of my post keeps dissappearing through translation from French ??, I click show original, but some is still missing.? Why are these not written in English as they are supposedly requested to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul333 View Post
    Some of my post keeps dissappearing through translation from French ??, I click show original, but some is still missing.? Why are these not written in English as they are supposedly requested to be.
    I give up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It seems someones consider the crosses with anexternal circle/ring are celtic, the anglo-saxon ones would not have this type of ring, spite they were looking very close otherwise -
    It seems to me that the cross is a celtic raven, ring sun and knots serpents. Raven was a symbol of shaman as a messenger from sky or heaven. When it flies to sun, it becomes "cross." When the flying raven meets sun, sun-cross shape appears. So ancient shaman tribe in america and central asia had an emblem of sun-cross:

    [img]naturemappingfoundation.org/natmap/facts/raven_flying_4375sil_lantz.jpg[/img]



    http://naturemappingfoundation.org/n..._vs_raven.html
    https://www.ancient-symbols.com/symb...sun-cross.html

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