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Thread: David Anthony on the Indo-Europeans-again

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    6 out of 9 members found this post helpful.

    David Anthony on the Indo-Europeans-again

    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    See:

    I don't see much new. As always, however, he's a very good summarizer and writes very clearly.

    I wonder if it's the Reich Lab who asked him to take a look at all the genetic data and try to match it to his knowledge of the archaeological record and the linguistics.

    "But before 4500 BC, CHG ancestry appeared among theEHG hunter-fishers in the middle Volga steppes from Samara toSaratov, at the same time that domesticated cattle and sheepgoats appeared. The Reich lab now has whole-genome aDNAdata from more than 30 individuals from three Eneolithiccemeteries in the Volga steppes between the cities of Saratovand Samara (Khlopkov Bugor, Khvalynsk, and Ekaterinovka),all dated around the middle of the fifth millennium BC."

    "three Khvalynsk individuals, dated about 4500 BC, showed EHGancestry admixed substantially with CHG, and not a trace ofAnatolian Farmer ancestry, so the CHG was a Hotu-Cave orKotias-Cave type of un-admixed CHG. The proportion of CHGin the Wang et al. (2018) bar graphs is about 20-30% in twoindividuals, substantially less CHG than in Yamnaya; but thethird Khvalynsk individual had more than 50% CHG, likeYamnaya. The ca. 30 additional unpublished individuals fromthree middle Volga Eneolithic cemeteries, including Khvalynsk,preliminarily show the same admixed EHG/CHG ancestry invarying proportions. Most of the males belonged to Ychromosome haplogroup R1b1a, like almost all Yamnaya males,but Khvalynsk also had some minority Y-chromosomehaplogroups (R1a, Q1a, J, I2a2) that do not appear or appearonly rarely (I2a2) in Yamnaya graves."

    "Wang et al. (2018) discovered that this middle Volgamating network extended down to the North Caucasiansteppes, where at cemeteries such as Progress-2 andVonyuchka, dated 4300 BC, the same Khvalynsk-type ancestryappeared, an admixture of CHG and EHG with no AnatolianFarmer ancestry, with steppe-derived Y-chromosomehaplogroup R1b. These three individuals in the North Caucasussteppes had higher proportions of CHG, overlapping Yamnaya.Without any doubt, a CHG population that was not admixedwith Anatolian Farmers mated with EHG populations in theVolga steppes and in the North Caucasus steppes before 4500BC. We can refer to this admixture as pre-Yamnaya, because itmakes the best currently known genetic ancestor for EHG/CHGR1b Yamnaya genomes. The Progress-2 individuals from NorthCaucasus steppe graves lived not far from the pre-Maikopfarmers of the Belaya valley, but they did not exchange mates,according to their DNA. The hunter-fisher camps that first appeared on the lowerVolga around 6200 BC could represent the migration northwardof un-admixed CHG hunter-fishers from the steppe parts of thesoutheastern Caucasus, a speculation that awaits confirmationfrom aDNA. After 5000 BC domesticated animals appeared inthese same sites in the lower Volga, and in new ones, and ingrave sacrifices at Khvalynsk and Ekaterinovka. CHG genes anddomesticated animals flowed north up the Volga, and EHGgenes flowed south into the North Caucasus steppes, and thetwo components became admixed. After approximately 4500 BCthe Khvalynsk archaeological culture united the lower andmiddle Volga archaeological sites into one variablearchaeological culture that kept domesticated sheep, goats, andcattle (and possibly horses). In my estimation, Khvalynsk mightrepresent the oldest phase of PIE."

    "theEneolithic populations of Dnieper-Donets II type seem to havelimited their mating network to the rich, strategic region theyoccupied, centered on the Rapids. The absence of CHG showsthat they did not mate frequently if at all with the people of theVolga steppes, a surprising but undeniable discovery."

    "Also, neither they northe Volga steppe Eneolithic populations showed any AnatolianFarmer ancestry."

    "among 48 individuals withwhole-genome aDNA from 16 Neolithic and Copper Agecemeteries in Bulgaria and Romania dated 5800-4300 BC, onlythree showed any ancestry from a steppe mating network(Mathieson et al. 2018). Around 95% of the southeasternEuropean farmer population tested had no steppe relatives overa period of 1500 years. They must have actively avoidedmarriage with steppe people, a rule broken only among the elitetowards the end of the Eneolithic. All three of the steppe-admixed exceptions were from theVarna region (Mathieson et al. 2018). One of them was thefamous “golden man’ at Varna (Krause et al. 2016), Grave 43,whose steppe ancestry was the most doubtful of the three. If hehad steppe ancestry, it was sufficiently distant (five+generations before him) that he was not a statisticallysignificant outlier, but he was displaced in the steppe direction,away from the central values of the majority of typicalAnatolian Farmers at Varna and elsewhere. The other two, atVarna (grave 158, a 5-7-year-old girl) and Smyadovo (grave 29,a male 20-25 years old), were statistically significant outlierswho had recent steppe ancestry (consistent with grandparentsor great-grandparents) of the EHG/CHG Khvalynsk/Progress-2type, not of the Dnieper Rapids EHG/WHG type. Again, this issurprising, because the Volga is much farther away from Varnathan the Dnieper. All three graves were unusually wellequipped with typical Varna pottery and ornaments, and grave43 was spectacularly rich. Steppe people occasionally becamethe parents of children whose local parents belonged to OldEuropean elite families, presumably as the result ofarrangements tied to political and economic negotiations. Butthe children were kept in the tell towns and lived and diedthere. Aside from these three elite-looking Varna-regionindividuals dated 4650-4450 BC (Krause et al. 2016; Mathiesonet al. 2018: Supplementary Materials), the majority of Eneolithicfarmers who lived near the steppe region had no stepperelatives, mirroring the absence of Anatolian Farmer ancestryin Eneolithic steppe cemeteries."

    I find some of the following pretty speculative:

    "I believe that the Suvorovo-Cernavoda Imovement into the lower Danube valley and the Balkans about4300 BC separated early PIE-speakers (pre-Anatolian) from thesteppe population that stayed behind in the steppes and thatlater developed into late PIE and Yamnaya. This archaeological transition marked the breakdown ofthe mating barrier between steppe and Anatolian Farmermating networks.

    After this 4300-4200 BC event, AnatolianFarmer ancestry began to pop up in the steppes. The currently oldest sample with Anatolian Farmer ancestry in the steppes inan individual at Aleksandriya, a Sredni Stog cemetery on theDonets in eastern Ukraine. Sredni Stog has often been discussedas a possible Yamnaya ancestor in Ukraine (Anthony 2007: 239-254). The single published grave is dated about 4000 BC (4045–3974 calBC/ 5215±20 BP/ PSUAMS-2832) and shows 20%Anatolian Farmer ancestry and 80% Khvalynsk-type steppeancestry (CHG&EHG). His Y-chromosome haplogroup wasR1a-Z93, similar to the later Sintashta culture and to South Asian Indo-Aryans, and he is the earliest known sample toshow the genetic adaptation to lactase persistence (I3910T).."

    He's on firmer ground here, imo.

    "The west-to-east gene flow that began after the 4300-4200 BC collapse could have continued into the Yamnayaperiod. Part of the WHG that Wang et al. (2018) detected inYamnaya genomes could have been picked up in the Dniepervalley, where many Dnieper-Donets individuals had WHGancestry, possibly lessening the necessity for mate exchangeswith Globular Amphorae. Probably, late PIE (Yamnaya) evolved in the same part ofthe steppes—the Volga-Caucasus steppes between the lowerDon, the lower and middle Volga, and the North Caucasuspiedmont—where early PIE evolved, and where appropriateEHG/CHG admixtures and Y-chromosome haplogroups wereseen already in the Eneolithic (without Anatolian Farmer).There have always been archaeologists who argued for anorigin of Yamnaya in the Volga steppes, including Gimbutas(1963), Merpert (1974), and recently Morgunova (2014), whoargued that this was where Repin-type ceramics, an importantearly Yamnaya pottery type, first appeared in dated contextsbefore Yamnaya, about 3600 BC. The genetic evidence isconsistent with Yamnaya EHG/CHG origins in the VolgaCaucasus steppes. Also, if contact with the Maikop culture wasa fundamental cause of the innovations in transport andmetallurgy that defined the Yamnaya culture, then the lowerDon-North Caucasus-lower Volga steppes, closest to the NorthCaucasus, would be where the earliest phase is expected."

    " I would still guess that the Darkveti-Meshoko culture andits descendant Maikop culture established the linguisticancestor of the Northwest Caucasian languages inapproximately the region where they remained. I also acceptthe general consensus that the appearance of the hierarchicalMaikop culture about 3600 BC had profound effects on preYamnaya and early Yamnaya steppe cultures. Yamnayametallurgy borrowed from the Maikop culture two-sided molds,tanged daggers, cast shaft hole axes with a single blade, andarsenical copper. Wheeled vehicles might have entered thesteppes through Maikop, revolutionizing steppe economies andmaking Yamnaya pastoral nomadism possible after 3300 BC. So it is still possible that steppe people interacted asraiders and traders and perhaps even political clients of theMaikop people, with interaction intense enough to makeleading political figures in the pre-Yamnaya steppes bilingual inthe Maikop (Northwest Caucasian?) language. Some Maikopwomen might also have become the wives of some preYamnaya men. If their speech was copied by others aroundthem, the linguistic exchanges and interferences suggested byBomhard could have occurred and spread without an equallylarge exchange of mates. But if the interpretations presentedhere are supported, mate exchanges between Maikop and preYamnaya or Yamnaya people were few in number, rare infrequency, and when they did happen, involved primarilyMaikop women, not men. If more mating had occurred, wewould see more EHG among the Maikop genomes and moreAnatolian Farmer among Yamnaya steppe genomes than we dosee. Of course another, final, possibility, consistent with thearchaeological and genetic evidence presented here, is thatthere were two phases of interference from Caucasianlanguages in two periods. The first, perhaps responsible forsome of the basic morphological and phonological traitsBomhard detected, could have occurred in the fifth millenniumBC and involved very archaic eastern Caucasian languages thathad moved to the lower Volga steppes with CHG people, wherethey intermarried with Samara-based EHG pre-Uralic people tocreate early PIE and the Khvalynsk culture and a newEHG/CHG genetic admixture; and the second phase, which left a Northwest Caucasian imprint over late PIE, perhaps moresuperficial (lexical) than the earlier interference, could havebeen during the Maikop period, but without a major geneticexchange between Maikop and Yamnaya."

    I would opt for the latter.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As always, however, he's a very good summarizer and writes very clearly.
    Yes, a clearly-written summary with some good points, but as usual one that is tarnished by the use of simplistic and misleading language to perpetuate the same old Yamnaya-centric myths.
    A few examples:
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "We can refer to this admixture as pre-Yamnaya, because itmakes the best currently known genetic ancestor for EHG/CHGR1b Yamnaya genomes."
    Like all other populations, Yamnaya did not have only one ancestor, but was the product of admixture between different ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "among 48 individuals withwhole-genome aDNA from 16 Neolithic and Copper Agecemeteries in Bulgaria and Romania dated 5800-4300 BC, onlythree showed any ancestry from a steppe mating network(Mathieson et al. 2018). Around 95% of the southeasternEuropean farmer population tested had no steppe relatives overa period of 1500 years."
    Individuals from 5800-4650 BC with no steppic DNA are misleadingly lumped together with individuals from 4650-4300 BC with steppic DNA, making the steppic DNA present in Copper Age Bulgaria look less than it actually was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Steppe people occasionally becamethe parents of children whose local parents belonged to OldEuropean elite families, presumably as the result ofarrangements tied to political and economic negotiations. Butthe children were kept in the tell towns and lived and diedthere."
    A laughably misleading insinuation that early people with 'Steppe DNA' outside of Yamnaya were restricted solely to the tell towns where the samples were found and all died out as children, leaving no genetic trace. There is no reason why we should presume that these 'children', one of whom we can see was a male of rich background in his twenties, did not leave descendants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "I believe that the Suvorovo-Cernavoda Imovement into the lower Danube valley and the Balkans about4300 BC separated early PIE-speakers (pre-Anatolian) from thesteppe population that stayed behind in the steppes and thatlater developed into late PIE and Yamnaya.
    Suvorovo and Cernavoda are misleadingly conflated, downplaying the fact that at least two separate non-Yamnayan peoples left different genetic impacts on the Balkans long before Yamnaya arrived there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "Part of the WHG that Wang et al. (2018) detected inYamnaya genomes could have been picked up in the Dniepervalley, where many Dnieper-Donets individuals had WHGancestry, possibly lessening the necessity for mate exchangeswith Globular Amphorae. Probably, late PIE (Yamnaya) evolved in the same part ofthe steppes—the Volga-Caucasus steppes between the lowerDon, the lower and middle Volga, and the North Caucasuspiedmont—where early PIE evolved, and where appropriateEHG/CHG admixtures and Y-chromosome haplogroups wereseen already in the Eneolithic (without Anatolian Farmer)."
    Only the Volga is identified as 'steppes' - the Dnieper steppe is just termed 'Dnieper valley' or 'Dnieper-Donets', presumably because the people who lived in that part of the Steppe did not bear what is misleading generalised as 'Steppe DNA'.

    Data that doesn't fit the myth is written off as 'outliers' and 'surprising', rather than incorporating it into an explanation that fits better.

    In my view, people would learn more if they ignored the prose from these people and just looked at the data (at least, the part of the data they have chosen to make publicly available).

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    What they mean by Yamnaya-Like is a population near 50/50% EHG and CHG in the PC Steppe. Even tho there is CHG in Khvalynsk, they consider Progress and Vonyuchka a better fit origin for what will become Yamnaya after.

    I'm not sure i really understand well this paper, but it looks CHG was a Volga HG marker before Live Stocks came from southern part by cultural transmission. Apparently the original population would be more Hotu Cave or Kotias instead of something Neolithic. That's the hints i got.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, a clearly-written summary with some good points, but as usual one that is tarnished by the use of simplistic and misleading language to perpetuate the same old Yamnaya-centric myths.
    A few examples:

    Like all other populations, Yamnaya did not have only one ancestor, but was the product of admixture between different ancestors.


    Individuals from 5800-4650 BC with no steppic DNA are misleadingly lumped together with individuals from 4650-4300 BC with steppic DNA, making the steppic DNA present in Copper Age Bulgaria look less than it actually was.


    A laughably misleading insinuation that early people with 'Steppe DNA' outside of Yamnaya were restricted solely to the tell towns where the samples were found and all died out as children, leaving no genetic trace. There is no reason why we should presume that these 'children', one of whom we can see was a male of rich background in his twenties, did not leave descendants.


    Suvorovo and Cernavoda are misleadingly conflated, downplaying the fact that at least two separate non-Yamnayan peoples left different genetic impacts on the Balkans long before Yamnaya arrived there.


    Only the Volga is identified as 'steppes' - the Dnieper steppe is just termed 'Dnieper valley' or 'Dnieper-Donets', presumably because the people who lived in that part of the Steppe did not bear what is misleading generalised as 'Steppe DNA'.

    Data that doesn't fit the myth is written off as 'outliers' and 'surprising', rather than incorporating it into an explanation that fits better.

    In my view, people would learn more if they ignored the prose from these people and just looked at the data (at least, the part of the data they have chosen to make publicly available).

    As always you know more than all the authors of these genetics papers and than David Anthony as well and in addition are more emphatic and arrogant about it.

    By all means write up a paper and see if a reputable journal will publish it. I'm all anticipation.

    @Cyrus,
    Not happy just filling up this site with your nonsense? Not happy that I haven't done anything yet about the fact that you were permanently banned by Maciamo and are here under a sock account?

    You're skating on extremely thin ice. I've just been very busy. I suggest you keep a low profile and not annoy me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As always you know more than all the authors of these genetics papers and than David Anthony as well and in addition are more emphatic and arrogant about it.
    By all means write up a paper and see if a reputable journal will publish it. I'm all anticipation.
    @Cyrus,
    Not happy just filling up this site with your nonsense? Not happy that I haven't done anything yet about the fact that you were permanently banned by Maciamo and are here under a sock account?
    You're skating on extremely thin ice. I've just been very busy. I suggest you keep a low profile and not annoy me.
    Angela, if you read my posts carefully, you will find that I am exactly the opposite of emphatic, constantly cautioning that we have insufficient evidence to jump to any assured conclusions about when and where IE originated.
    I've no interest in writing papers or getting them published, so please don't anticipate this.
    Are you suggesting that I am Cyrus? That would be odd, as it would mean I've spent much of the past few weeks disagreeing with myself!
    I would be interested if anyone would like to respond to any of the specific comments I posted earlier.

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    EHG/CHG seems to have been present all over the eastern part of the Pontic steppe, maybe since 7 ka
    apart from that, Khvalynsk had some additional Siberian DNA, which was also present in the 5.15 ka steppe Maykop, together with some Q1a Y-DNA (see Wang)
    this additional Siberian DNA is almost completely absent in Yamna
    therefore I don't think Khvalynsk is the origin for Yamna, it is Repin, who arrived on the Don-Volga steppe ca 5.95 ka and spread on much of the same territory as Khvalynsk

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    Angela, if there is a rule in this forum that all members should just believe in the steppe hypothesis of Indo-European origin, please ban me and other ones who have different beliefs, there is no reason that you attack me everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Angela, if there is a rule in this forum that all members should just believe in the steppe hypothesis of Indo-European origin, please ban me and other ones who have different beliefs, there is no reason that you attack me everywhere.
    Yes, Angela, please do that - whatever the rules on this forum can be. For the sake of common sense and everyone's sanity...
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    EHG/CHG seems to have been present all over the eastern part of the Pontic steppe, maybe since 7 ka
    apart from that, Khvalynsk had some additional Siberian DNA, which was also present in the 5.15 ka steppe Maykop, together with some Q1a Y-DNA (see Wang)
    this additional Siberian DNA is almost completely absent in Yamna
    therefore I don't think Khvalynsk is the origin for Yamna, it is Repin, who arrived on the Don-Volga steppe ca 5.95 ka and spread on much of the same territory as Khvalynsk
    I don't know, but there would be 50% chance of the yamna to have as I already posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Can you tell me the difference between qpAdm and CP/NNLS model at the newest schythian paper, page 5? which one is more accurate?.
    In the paper, yamna kalmykia, samara have altai admixture in the qpAdm model, not in CP/NNLS.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...hian_Dominance
    Moreover, I have always general questions;
    1. Is it possible of WSHG to migrate whole Eurasia except ancient europe?
    2. From mesolithic age to Ottoman regime, the altai culture people CONTINUED to migrate to west. But not at bronze age???

    However, I agree that Khvalynsk is not the origin for Yamna, b/c the yamna admixture Q1a was not welcomed in khvalynsk. Moreover yamna accepted wagon burial as their elite culture from steppe maykop Q1a, and afanasievo has 2 Q1a. So I think original yamna people lived together with lots of Q1a, before splitting. maybe east ural?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    EHG/CHG seems to have been present all over the eastern part of the Pontic steppe, maybe since 7 ka
    apart from that, Khvalynsk had some additional Siberian DNA, which was also present in the 5.15 ka steppe Maykop, together with some Q1a Y-DNA (see Wang)
    this additional Siberian DNA is almost completely absent in Yamna
    therefore I don't think Khvalynsk is the origin for Yamna, it is Repin, who arrived on the Don-Volga steppe ca 5.95 ka and spread on much of the same territory as Khvalynsk
    I wonder if the Siberian ancestry is the same as the one in Steppe Maykop or Lola culture. If it is, it might mean that this EHG/CHG/Siberian population was in eastern europe for some time in addition with the yamnaya-like one.

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    Podcast with David Reich. He is convinced that Yamnaya is IE, Hittite briefly mentioned as not having shared wheel vocabulary

    https://youtu.be/LswA9_jz9G0

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Cyrus,
    Not happy just filling up this site with your nonsense? Not happy that I haven't done anything yet about the fact that you were permanently banned by Maciamo and are here under a sock account?

    You're skating on extremely thin ice. I've just been very busy. I suggest you keep a low profile and not annoy me.
    I'm going to just point out that Cyrus is not a sock account, he is not the same person as the one whom Maciamo banned permanently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Angela, if there is a rule in this forum that all members should just believe in the steppe hypothesis of Indo-European origin, please ban me and other ones who have different beliefs, there is no reason that you attack me everywhere.
    Naw man, no rule. Believe what you want, but know that you have to back up your theories you are pushing with evidence that can hold up to scrutiny and criticism. Perhaps there would be less perceived 'hostility' this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Podcast with David Reich. He is convinced that Yamnaya is IE, Hittite briefly mentioned as not having shared wheel vocabulary

    https://youtu.be/LswA9_jz9G0
    Thanks for the link.

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    Excuse me Angela, this is an off topic, but I couldn't contact to you in a private message, because you have your mailbox filled, could you please delete some older ones? thanks.

    My question could be answer by anyone who knows how to delete attachments of my box, because is filled. And recomend to me some reliable free website to upload my pics, because i had allowed pics in browsers that after time were deleted or missed... thanks

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, a clearly-written summary with some good points, but as usual one that is tarnished by the use of simplistic and misleading language to perpetuate the same old Yamnaya-centric myths.
    A few examples:

    Like all other populations, Yamnaya did not have only one ancestor, but was the product of admixture between different ancestors.


    Individuals from 5800-4650 BC with no steppic DNA are misleadingly lumped together with individuals from 4650-4300 BC with steppic DNA, making the steppic DNA present in Copper Age Bulgaria look less than it actually was.


    A laughably misleading insinuation that early people with 'Steppe DNA' outside of Yamnaya were restricted solely to the tell towns where the samples were found and all died out as children, leaving no genetic trace. There is no reason why we should presume that these 'children', one of whom we can see was a male of rich background in his twenties, did not leave descendants.


    Suvorovo and Cernavoda are misleadingly conflated, downplaying the fact that at least two separate non-Yamnayan peoples left different genetic impacts on the Balkans long before Yamnaya arrived there.


    Only the Volga is identified as 'steppes' - the Dnieper steppe is just termed 'Dnieper valley' or 'Dnieper-Donets', presumably because the people who lived in that part of the Steppe did not bear what is misleading generalised as 'Steppe DNA'.

    Data that doesn't fit the myth is written off as 'outliers' and 'surprising', rather than incorporating it into an explanation that fits better.

    In my view, people would learn more if they ignored the prose from these people and just looked at the data (at least, the part of the data they have chosen to make publicly available).

    Why do your posts always scream Davidski to me?
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What they mean by Yamnaya-Like is a population near 50/50% EHG and CHG in the PC Steppe. Even tho there is CHG in Khvalynsk, they consider Progress and Vonyuchka a better fit origin for what will become Yamnaya after.

    I'm not sure i really understand well this paper, but it looks CHG was a Volga HG marker before Live Stocks came from southern part by cultural transmission. Apparently the original population would be more Hotu Cave or Kotias instead of something Neolithic. That's the hints i got.
    The CHG that mixed with EHG to form Eneolithic Steppe and later Yamnaya people seems to be pretty diverged in relation to the CHG represented by the South Caucasus DNA samples that we have found to date. It was already mixed with EHG by the Eneolithic ~4500 B.C., and I wouldn't be surprised if it had started moving down the Caucasus well before that date and had already drifted away from the CHG in Georgia and in other more southern lands in their North Caucasus homeland. When I try to model the genetic ancestry of Europeans using CHG (Kotias, Satsurblia) and EHG (Karelia, Samara) separately, I often find that the EHG is picked up by the software algorithm just fine, but the CHG disappears. But as soon as I try substituting Eneolithic Steppe DNA samples for the former CHG+EHG separate combination, it's found in substantial proportions, as Eneolithic Steppe has a lot of CHG-related ancestry. That's of course not the only reason why I think it's possible that the CHG in the steppe arrived there well before PIE is assumed to have been spoken and was already quite drifted apart from other CHG groups that remained in the South Caucasus, but that stroke me as something really intriguing that confirmed my other suspicions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    EHG/CHG seems to have been present all over the eastern part of the Pontic steppe, maybe since 7 ka
    apart from that, Khvalynsk had some additional Siberian DNA, which was also present in the 5.15 ka steppe Maykop, together with some Q1a Y-DNA (see Wang)
    this additional Siberian DNA is almost completely absent in Yamna
    therefore I don't think Khvalynsk is the origin for Yamna, it is Repin, who arrived on the Don-Volga steppe ca 5.95 ka and spread on much of the same territory as Khvalynsk
    Wasn't Repin a derivation of Khvalynsk at least partially? Maybe Siberian input was only more than negligible in the northern parts (core Khvalynsk territory) and not more to the South, or it was simply low enough that it virtually disappeared (given later bottlenecks and random drift) centuries later.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    Why do your posts always scream Davidski to me?
    Good question. :)

    Just as often wrong, too. As I said once, enough to fill a small city's phone directory.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So, for what it's worth, I decided to play a bit with the aDNA samples available in the Global25 datasheets, and though these are of course flawed and only proximate models I think they're still suggestive and go in the same direction of what the scientific research has been pointing to, which is: 1) Eneolithic Steppe samples from the south near to the Caucasus seem to have been formative for later two presumably IE-speaking culturres(please, don't make me discuss again why Carlos Quiles' "Indo-Uralic" hypothesis is a fanciful attempt at making sense easily of a much more complex history); 2) interestingly, the Early CWC from the Baltic area seems to have more Sredny Stog-related ancestry, whereas the Yamnaya samples have more Progress Eneolithic Steppe ancestry, which I think can have some implications on the origins of the R1a-rich ancestors of the CWC and where they had come from before migrating (orbeing pushed) north; 3) in each and every case, Eneolithic Khvalynsk was only a minor part of the ancestry of the later BA population. Do you think these results are plausible?

    [1] "distance%=3.0953 / distance=0.030953"
    Corded_Ware_Baltic_early

    UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En 43.1
    RUS_Progress_En 34.9
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En 18.9
    Baltic_LTU_Mesolithic 3.1


    [1] "distance%=2.6627 / distance=0.026627"
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

    RUS_Progress_En 55.40
    UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En 23.55
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En 17.20
    UKR_Dereivka_I_En1 2.10
    RUS_Vonyuchka_En 1.75

    [1] "distance%=2.8016 / distance=0.028016"
    Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia

    RUS_Progress_En 53.6
    UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En 29.2
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En 17.1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghani View Post
    Why do your posts always scream Davidski to me?
    I'm afraid I can't answer that question, Ghani. I don't know who Davidski is, and am not really that interested in personalities.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    A laughably misleading insinuation that early people with 'Steppe DNA' outside of Yamnaya were restricted solely to the tell towns where the samples were found and all died out as children, leaving no genetic trace. There is no reason why we should presume that these 'children', one of whom we can see was a male of rich background in his twenties, did not leave descendants.
    I think you're letting your biases against what Anthony thinks obscure your judgement, because it seems pretty clear to me that the children were kept in the tell towns and lived and died there obviously does not mean that the children died still in their infancy in those tell towns, but that they lived - i.e. were raised, grew up and resided - there and eventually, as adults, died in those tell towns, not spreading much and leaving a gtrong long-term genetic impact.

    Data that doesn't fit the myth is written off as 'outliers' and 'surprising', rather than incorporating it into an explanation that fits better.
    Sounds like a conspiracy theory. Outliers definitely exist, especially in lands without any major geographic barriers isolating the population. Population genetics is always a matter of probabilities: if all the samples from a certain region, having lived in different timeframes, have a certain genetic makeup, and only one or another deviate clearly from the rest, we're probably dealing with outliers that left little genetic impact on the local population after some generations, otherwise we wouldn't expect that definite genetic structure to remain broadly the same for several generations without major changes.

    In my view, people would learn more if they ignored the prose from these people and just looked at the data (at least, the part of the data they have chosen to make publicly available).
    Well, many people have been doing exactly that on their own, and they still disagree with your hypothesis. It's not like it's that simple, and you're the only sensible and knowledgeable person to be able to see the truth.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Podcast with David Reich. He is convinced that Yamnaya is IE, Hittite briefly mentioned as not having shared wheel vocabulary
    https://youtu.be/LswA9_jz9G0
    But Sumerian which became extinct in the south of Mesopotamia hundreds years before the appearance of Hittite language, borrowed this word from Indo-European, it clearly shows Yamnaya is NOT IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think you're letting your biases against what Anthony thinks obscure your judgement, because it seems pretty clear to me that the children were kept in the tell towns and lived and died there obviously does not mean that the children died still in their infancy in those tell towns, but that they lived - i.e. were raised, grew up and resided - there and eventually, as adults, died in those tell towns, not spreading much and leaving a gtrong long-term genetic impact.
    Absolutely not, because I broadly agree with what Anthony thinks. It's his slanted and misleading way of writing that I do not like much.
    Why refer to them only as "children", if not to hint (without any evidence) that they did not reach reproductive maturity, and by implication must have died out without leaving any descendants?
    And of course, every person buried in the tell towns died in the tell towns, whether they had steppic DNA or not.
    And there is no evidence that the people there with steppic DNA did not spread much or leave a strong long-term genetic impact. In fact, on the contrary, such people fit very well as contributors to a variety of subsequent populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
    A pejorative expression, only ever wheeled out to discredit by association.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Outliers definitely exist, especially in lands without any major geographic barriers isolating the population. Population genetics is always a matter of probabilities: if all the samples from a certain region, having lived in different timeframes, have a certain genetic makeup, and only one or another deviate clearly from the rest, we're probably dealing with outliers that left little genetic impact on the local population after some generations, otherwise we wouldn't expect that definite genetic structure to remain broadly the same for several generations without major changes.
    Yes, outliers do indeed exist, and they indicate something that people who term them "outliers" generally wish to ignore.
    Poltavka has an outlier sample that a few centuries later mirrored the general population in the same area.
    Sredny Stog has an outlier sample that a thousand years or so later mirrored the general population hundreds of miles to its West.
    Most so-called outliers that I have seen identified as such have similar genetic traces in subsequent populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, many people have been doing exactly that on their own, and they still disagree with your hypothesis. It's not like it's that simple, and you're the only sensible and knowledgeable person to be able to see the truth.
    What "hypothesis" is this that I'm supposed to have? And what is this "truth" that you suggest I think only I am able to see? I am merely posting data, and don't have any overarching hypothesis for people to disagree with.
    In fact, I've spent most of my time cautioning people on this forum that it is not simple, and that many models presented (including by Reich and Anthony) are misleading by virtue of their over-simplicity.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Davidski is the Eurogenes blogger and fellow R1a bearer. R1A FAMILY YEAH! He tends to overly boost his haplogroup because his people, the Poles, have been quite downtrodden over the centuries, and now he's finally on the winning side of something, which I'll allow as I am fond of the Polish people, not the least of which because my father's first generation Polish-American stepfather moved the family (including my father, of course) all across the country making sure my mother and father's DNA was in the same county to make me. I post on that blog as Vinitharya (the name of a Tolkien character which has been translated as 'Wendish Warrior', which is what I call my subclade's MRCA), a persona where I show how Carlos Quiles would sound if he believed R1a transmitted Indo-European languages instead of R1b.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    But Sumerian which became extinct in the south of Mesopotamia hundreds years before the appearance of Hittite language, borrowed this word from Indo-European, it clearly shows Yamnaya is NOT IE.
    That doesn't work as evidence, because, first of all, Hittite doesn't have that word, so it's irrelevante when it was (and I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between written attestation and a language's existence, i.e. it is obvious that some form of Hittite was already spoken many centuries before its first written evidence appears)​, and the Yamnaya-related steppe migrations had already spread far and wide by the time Sumerian was still being spoken and written down, and the word could've come to them via some of those migrant groups (probably even Gutians themselves, who might have been distantly related to the Tocharians according to some non-mainstream hypothesis) or even indirectly via populations that had learned that word and the object associated with it from IE speakers (much like words similar to "computer" and "software" spread to many unrelated languages in the last decades).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    What "hypothesis" is this that I'm supposed to have? And what is this "truth" that you suggest I think only I am able to see? I am merely posting data, and don't have any overarching hypothesis for people to disagree with.
    In fact, I've spent most of my time cautioning people on this forum that it is not simple, and that many models presented (including by Reich and Anthony) are misleading by virtue of their over-simplicity.
    So don't most of your comments basically point to a PIE origin and expansion coming from the eastern Balkans with a population formed by a mix of SE European EEF with PC Steppe people, eventually spreading from there back into the steppes and westwards into the rest of Europe, and many of these later BA steppe-admixed European populations in fact mostly replaced the local EEF peoples completely and basically expanded over them, without much mixing, and with relatively few changes over more than 1,000-2,000 years? Sorry if I just mistook what you meant, but that's what your evaluations of the data always seemed to be ultimately about in my view.

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