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Thread: Croatian G-L293 dys19=14, dys456=14 cluster - Xoruattæ?

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    Croatian G-L293 dys19=14, dys456=14 cluster - Xoruattæ?

    At FTDNA there is a Slovenian kit N110396 from Presladol. G-L293 and 100 % related through very specific STR combination to four Croats from the Mrsic et al. Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database (1100 haplotypes from 5 regions of Croatia tested). This combination involves dys19=14 + dys456=14 in addition to dys385=15-15. All of these values are off-modal for G-L293 and there is no chance whatsoever all 5 of these do no form some cluster of their own, especially as this cluster differs alot from others even at low number of STR's.

    As Slovenian has 111 STR's I was able to estimate where under G-L293 tree he fits best though he has no close matches.
    His DYS505=9 is indicative of Z6653+ and he is predicted at FTDNA as such.
    His dys565=12 is indicative of Z6679- , as dys565=13 is one of important mutations at that level
    His DYS570=17 + DYS576=15 combination is indicative of G-Z6692- as DYS570=18 + DYS576=16 are some of determining mutations at that level.
    So seems due to STR combination a pretty basal G-L293.

    With the Karachay-Balkar/Georgian/Abkhazian cluster G-Y36036 he shares three of their defining mutations, namely DYS532=13, DYS481=21, and DYS437=14. Doesn't share other 11 mutations from the Y111 set. Croats from the study all have dys437=15, but due to other STR's and proximity they are certainly related so these might be a private mutation 14->15 for the Croats.

    So I guess this cluster is some basal G-Y36036 with TMRCA to Caucasians at about 4500-5000 ybp or just some G-Z6653*.

    Of interest might be also one Pashtun G-L293 sharing with these dys19=14 and also having GATAH4=11 which is also indicative of G-Z6653* as one of defining mutations at G-Z6679 level is GATAH4=10<-11. Croats/Slovenian have GATAH4=10 but due to their other STR's they should be Z6679-. In the case they are not Y36036- this Pasthun might look more interesting as he doesn't fit as G-Y36036 nicely because of dys437=16.

    Considering this cluster is basically confined to these 5 I can't help but wonder whether these are the genetic trace of Alanic Croats who are speculated to have existed by variousy authors. Personal name Horoathos, "assembly" Horouathon occurring in Sarmatians around Tanais has been long speculated to have etymological ties the the Croat ethnoym:
    "Trubachyov tried to explain the original proto-type of the ethnonym from adjectives *xar-va(n)t (feminine, rich in women), which derives from the etymology of Sarmatians"

    I might search for some references that some authors used to support their theory of Iranian connection. I couldn't find such genetic links with Serbs, though I tried, who were also hypothesized to have similar connection. Certain 10th century supposed mentions of Serbs (Sarban) and Croats (Krevatas/Krebatas) in Caucasus are definitely false, in the case of Sarbans the source refers to Shirwan, and Krebatas to Karabakh.


    Obviously there are other possibilities. Among Avars there was also G-L293, but this particular haplotype does not exist in Hungarians or Romanians (but some others do). There is some J-Z1828 haplotype which seems surely Sarmatian and it occurs in 4 Croats from the same study but it also occurs in a Serb, in Hungary etc it might be of Iazygian extraction.

    This cluster though seems pretty confined to Croats (and a Slovenian 30 km NW from Zagreb). Its regional presence: one from Northern Croatia (no.13), Western Croatia (no.10) and two from Central Croatia (no. 10 & 11) area.

    Not found in Eastern Croatia.

    Haplotype 25 from the Southern Croatia, also a G-L293 I had to exclude because he lacks dys19=14+dys456=14, also has usual dys437=16, he onlyl shares with most unusual dys385=15-15, not enough to put him inside this cluster.

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    Relating these samples to "Alanic Croats", for who there's no exact evidence that ever existed, is too far-fetched. The connection is considered to be mainly cultural & linguistic, not anthropological and genetic.

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    Trubachyov is probaly right about the ethimology. Two very important Slavic words related to power - bog (God) and župan - are of Iranic origin. Why not ethnonym? All three word probably originate from the period of Sarmatian rule over proto-Slavs. Some Slavs identified themselves with the "famous" name... then we got Slavic Croats.
    Neopisivo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miroslav View Post
    Relating these samples to "Alanic Croats", for who there's no exact evidence that ever existed, is too far-fetched. The connection is considered to be mainly cultural & linguistic, not anthropological and genetic.
    Generally there is scanty evidence.

    In De Administrando Imperio a certain Croatian ruler Porga was mentioned. There have been various theories about this name. One from Serbian historian Tibor Zivkovic that it came from Iranian phrase pouru-gâo "rich in cattle". Ofen Mordvin chief Purgas is mentioned. But he is also named as Porin which seems Slavic.

    Also from Porfirogenitus:
    "The Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bagibareia (usually considered to be Bavaria), where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family, namely of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found this land under the rule of the Avars."

    These names have various interpretations. J. J. Mikkola considered them Turkic. Perhaps such interpretation could fit into some Alano-Avar group if it is justified as there are also Slavic interpretations, some try to fit these names with 12 Croatian noble tribes, Klaić connected Touga with Tugomirić and Kloukas with Kukar.

    Szulimirski mentions that White Croatian king drank mare's milk, a Steppe custom. Also mentioned frm the same source is "king of kings" title but that's rather bit "too Persian" in meaning.

    Also he quotes Tadeusz Lewicki who identified Vistulanians as White Croats. Their ruler was mentioned by Ma'sudi according to Lewicki the most reliable reading is "A-ld-a-jr", and per Lewicki this corresponds directly to Ossetian ӕлдар/ӕldar which means "chieftain" and its more archaic form ӕldair. Sulimirski interpreted this not as a real name of the ruler but as a title that was Alanic-derived.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    In De Administrando Imperio a certain Croatian ruler Porga was mentioned. There have been various theories about this name. One from Serbian historian Tibor Zivkovic that it came from Iranian phrase pouru-gâo "rich in cattle". Ofen Mordvin chief Purgas is mentioned. But he is also named as Porin which seems Slavic.
    In another chapter the same duke Porga is called Porin. The name is related to Slavic diety Perun (Thor):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Perun

    "The Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bagibareia (usually considered to be Bavaria), where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family, namely of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found this land under the rule of the Avars."
    These are the legendary characters, probably not the real people. Just like Like Čeh, Lech and Rus from the Polish and Czech legends. The latter also tells a migration story.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus

    According to A. Gluhak, these names might be of Baltoslavic origin.

    However, the earliest recorded names of the Croatian dukes and kings are clearly Slavic (with some Germanic influence): Branimir, Trpimir, Zvonimir, Krešimir, Ratimir, Mislav, Držislav, Tomislav...

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