Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: IJ and I, how they evolved

  1. #1
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    Mir's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-07-19
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    41
    Points
    359
    Level
    4
    Points: 359, Level: 4
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    i1 (I-M227)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W3

    Ethnic group
    Ancient, Native European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    IJ and I, how they evolved

    It seems to be the consensus that I originated in Europe (all evidence points toward that), after it split from IJ, its father haplogroup. Since both I and J split from IJ, is it possible that when IJ split first, that it was into only J at first, and then later I in Europe?

    In other words, when IJ split, it didn't necessarily split into I as well as J at the same time, correct? It was possible that it first split into J in the Middle East, but not I, but when carrier of IJ arrived in Europe, it then split into I as well, but not J?

    Another thing: What samples do we have from Upper Paleolithic corpses of IJ in Europe? Do they predate I in Europe?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    spruithean's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-08-12
    Posts
    331
    Points
    8,985
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,985, Level: 28
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 365
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Canada-Ontario



    YFull estimates that IJ formed 47,200 years ago and the TMRCA (time to most recent ancestor for both I and J) is estimated to be 42,900 years ago: https://www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/

  3. #3
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    Mir's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-07-19
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    41
    Points
    359
    Level
    4
    Points: 359, Level: 4
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    i1 (I-M227)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W3

    Ethnic group
    Ancient, Native European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    YFull estimates that IJ formed 47,200 years ago and the TMRCA (time to most recent ancestor for both I and J) is estimated to be 42,900 years ago: https://www.yfull.com/tree/IJ/
    Do you know when IJ entered Europe? And did any J enter with it (I presume J split first) at all during the UP?

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,382
    Points
    47,218
    Level
    67
    Points: 47,218, Level: 67
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 1,132
    Overall activity: 54.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I guess the IJ split happened in Georgia.
    Ortvale Klde, Dzudzuana cave, ...

  5. #5
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    Mir's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-07-19
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    41
    Points
    359
    Level
    4
    Points: 359, Level: 4
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    i1 (I-M227)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W3

    Ethnic group
    Ancient, Native European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I guess the IJ split happened in Georgia.
    Ortvale Klde, Dzudzuana cave, ...
    My real question is, could J have split from IJ without I doing so? I'm not too informed on this, but I guess the answer would be yes? J could have split off from IJ in the Middle East, then IJ continued into Europe and then I split from IJ also. Could this be possible?

    I strongly doubt I split from IJ around the Caucasus. There are not many I carriers there, and usually haplogroups that reach such an area get "stuck" due to the mountaneous region, so if Y-DNA I did indeed split from IJ in Caucausus, we would probably find it being carried in higher numbers there today, but also in the past. Why are all the UP carriers of Haplogroup I in the "main" part of Europe (i.e. Ukraine and to the west of it)? Why is the oldest I sample found in Italy, so far from Anatolia and the Caucasus? And not just that, but virtually all modern carriers of I and its subclades are in Europe.

    It seems ridiculous to me to suggest, as I've seen some do, that I split from IJ around the Caucasus. Some even suggest Anatolia/Middle East, which I have no idea how they imagine have happened. If that were the case, obviously we'd have some UP carriers of Hg I down there? And a plethora of subclades of Hg I in modern carriers? Usually the region of origin of a Hg, even a subclade, has the most diversity of its subclades.

    So, I see no good reason for why I would split off from IJ anywhere but inside or west of Ukraine/Black Sea region.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points
    torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    422
    Points
    4,341
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,341, Level: 19
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 309
    Overall activity: 71.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2-Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Mir View Post
    It seems to be the consensus that I originated in Europe (all evidence points toward that), after it split from IJ, its father haplogroup. Since both I and J split from IJ, is it possible that when IJ split first, that it was into only J at first, and then later I in Europe?

    In other words, when IJ split, it didn't necessarily split into I as well as J at the same time, correct? It was possible that it first split into J in the Middle East, but not I, but when carrier of IJ arrived in Europe, it then split into I as well, but not J?

    Another thing: What samples do we have from Upper Paleolithic corpses of IJ in Europe? Do they predate I in Europe?

    Thanks.
    the last major study on answer was done
    https://genome.cshlp.org/content/ear...72008.abstract

    IJ haplogroups came from Central Asia
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

  7. #7
    Banned Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    Mir's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-07-19
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    41
    Points
    359
    Level
    4
    Points: 359, Level: 4
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 91
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    i1 (I-M227)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W3

    Ethnic group
    Ancient, Native European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the last major study on answer was done
    https://genome.cshlp.org/content/ear...72008.abstract

    IJ haplogroups came from Central Asia
    Still doesn't answer my question.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •