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Thread: Hungarians have the most Ashkenazi admixture

  1. #26
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    I made a 23andMe test for me. The results said: I have Italian ancestry from two regions: strongly Veneto and weaker Puglia.

    But few months later I made a test for my mother. And when the results were ready, I was no longer italian. They wrote this to me:
    "Imre, we could not detect any Italian ancestry for your DNA at this time."

    I also lost my formerly ancestors: irish from Limerick, french from Alsace and german from Saxony. But that's when I won manchurian and mongolian ancestors.

    And my mother's results?
    Italy Possible Match
    Italy has 20 administrative regions, and we found the strongest evidence of your ancestry in the following 5 regions.
    • Calabria
    • Friuli-Venezia Giulia
    • Campania
    • Sicily
    • Abruzzo



    So my 23andMe results changed after my mother's results arrived. Why? Have my autosomal DNA changed? What is the reason why I lost my genetic connection with Puglia and Veneto? Is this reliable? Meanwhile on MyHeritage, I'm 14,5% italian.

    Another example: My paternal grandfather's brother has irish ancestry. (How could this happened I don't know) 9-23% on different companies. But I have zero irish ancestry (but 0,1% manchurian and 0,9% papuan yes) How is it possible? We have the same Y chr (E-V13-A19238) and 12,9% of our genes are common (according the MyHeritage), so he was really a brother of my grandfather.

    And one more note. I made 11 MyHeritage DNA test (11/1.800.000) from my closer and distant relatives. (To find out they are my relatives or not. If yes, I ordered an Y chr test) I have experienced: if our last common ancestor born more than 200 years, we have no match for each other. One of my relative from direct paternal line (E-V13-A19238) is YF13045 on YFULL. Our last common father born 1772. I have 3659 DNA match on MyHeritage (at this time), but he is not.

    So the autosomal results are not reliable.
    If you wish to continue in this hobby you're really going to have to buckle down and get a book on population genetics and study it. Find out the difference between IBS and IBD. Find out what "phasing" does to one's results. Read ALL the major papers at the link below. Until you do so there's no point in responding to you.

    @Ailchu,
    My patience quota for the day is not yet depleted so I'm going to give it one more try. 23andme compares the dna of testees to the dna of their extremely large sample of Ashkenazi Jews. They find that sometimes unbeknownst even to the testees themselves there is some dna matching, in GENEOLOGICAL time, to Ashkenazim. In other words, they absolutely descend, to some degree, in GENEOLOGICAL time, i.e. perhaps 3-400 years, from Ashkenazi Jews. If someone is in that category, they wind up with hundreds and hundreds of Ashkenazi cousins, usually of around the third to fourth cousin level.

    This doesn't work with "Sephardic" Jews, loosely defined, because, not going through that extreme bottleneck and subsequent drift, they're not distinct enough.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    I made a 23andMe test for me. The results said: I have Italian ancestry from two regions: strongly Veneto and weaker Puglia.

    But few months later I made a test for my mother. And when the results were ready, I was no longer italian. They wrote this to me:
    "Imre, we could not detect any Italian ancestry for your DNA at this time."

    I also lost my formerly ancestors: irish from Limerick, french from Alsace and german from Saxony. But that's when I won manchurian and mongolian ancestors.

    And my mother's results?
    Italy Possible Match
    Italy has 20 administrative regions, and we found the strongest evidence of your ancestry in the following 5 regions.
    • Calabria
    • Friuli-Venezia Giulia
    • Campania
    • Sicily
    • Abruzzo



    So my 23andMe results changed after my mother's results arrived. Why? Have my autosomal DNA changed? What is the reason why I lost my genetic connection with Puglia and Veneto? Is this reliable? Meanwhile on MyHeritage, I'm 14,5% italian.

    Another example: My paternal grandfather's brother has irish ancestry. (How could this happened I don't know) 9-23% on different companies. But I have zero irish ancestry (but 0,1% manchurian and 0,9% papuan yes) How is it possible? We have the same Y chr (E-V13-A19238) and 12,9% of our genes are common (according the MyHeritage), so he was really a brother of my grandfather.

    And one more note. I made 11 MyHeritage DNA test (11/1.800.000) from my closer and distant relatives. (To find out they are my relatives or not. If yes, I ordered an Y chr test) I have experienced: if our last common ancestor born more than 200 years, we have no match for each other. One of my relative from direct paternal line (E-V13-A19238) is YF13045 on YFULL. Our last common father born 1772. I have 3659 DNA match on MyHeritage (at this time), but he is not.

    So the autosomal results are not reliable.
    I have no idea why you can't find your ancestry. Did MyHeritage recognize most of your relatives as your relatives except for one? Maybe he was adopted or an out of wedlock child? On ancestry.com my wife's known relatives (from her family tree) were all correctly recognized as such. On MyHeritage and Ancestry I have found relatives from my mother's side of the family. Now autosomal admixture depends a lot on the reference groups.The more detailed and localized the reference groups the more defined and refined the admixture.

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    Dear Angela!

    No problem if you don't want or can't answer. I asked these questions to the professional geneticists of the Genographic Project, MyHeritage and 23andMe, also Dr. Anna Széchenyi-Nagy too. They tried to answer and I learned a lot from her and dr. Miguel Vilar (Genographic Project).

    I know from them that all autosomal results just depend on the reference database ie subjective. This is the reason, why I never got two identical results.

    Dear bigsnake49!

    Just as you say. I just wanted to say: In 1772 born a man and he had two sons, and to both of them lives today a direct paternal line descendant. Both have the same family name and both of them Y chr is E-V13-A19238. (I think our direct paternal line father was thracian/dacian maybe, and this is a very rare subgroup. We have just 5 A19238+ sample from all the world and all of them named: Küzmös) But they are no match for each other on FtDNA Family Finder or MyHeritage results. This is the reason why I think, autosomal analysis can't dig deep like 200 years.

    My first autosomal results came from Genographic project.
    68% eastern europe
    25% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora
    2% finland and siberia.

    After I asked him why I got a very different results from MyHeritage, Dr. Vilar re-run my sample on their analytics program. The new results:
    70% eastern europe
    24% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora

    So the database changed, the results will be changed too. My Finland and Siberia roots are disappeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Ailchu,
    My patience quota for the day is not yet depleted so I'm going to give it one more try. 23andme compares the dna of testees to the dna of their extremely large sample of Ashkenazi Jews. They find that sometimes unbeknownst even to the testees themselves there is some dna matching, in GENEOLOGICAL time, to Ashkenazim. In other words, they absolutely descend, to some degree, in GENEOLOGICAL time, i.e. perhaps 3-400 years, from Ashkenazi Jews. If someone is in that category, they wind up with hundreds and hundreds of Ashkenazi cousins, usually of around the third to fourth cousin level.
    here are my thoughts:
    what they consider as ashkenazi ancestry is totally dependant on their dataset and their definition. an ashkenazi person might come out as 100% ashkenazi even though he or she has ancestry that entered the ashkenazi genepool from europe in the last 1000 years. because myheritage might label this ancestry as ashkenazi, for example if they do not have enough european samples with similar ancesry or if they do not analyse these segments for different variance in different populuations. or perhaps there are overlappings between certain populations that do not have to come from recent genetic exchange.
    this ancestry will be labeled as ashkenazi and because it will have a way higher abundance among the jewish people in myheritage dataset a european person who has a few segments of dna that resemble these originally european segements in ashkenazis might get a few % ashkenazi.
    for the same reason many people in italy, spain get greek results. it's not necessarily because they have recent "greek" ancestors but because those populations share similar ancestry that now gets labeled as greek.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    here are my thoughts:
    what they consider as ashkenazi ancestry is totally dependant on their dataset and their definition. an ashkenazi person might come out as 100% ashkenazi even though he or she has ancestry that entered the ashkenazi genepool from europe in the last 1000 years. because myheritage might label this ancestry as ashkenazi, for example if they do not have enough european samples with similar ancesry or if they do not analyse these segments for different variance in different populuations. or perhaps there are overlappings between certain populations that do not have to come from recent genetic exchange.
    this ancestry will be labeled as ashkenazi and because it will have a way higher abundance among the jewish people in myheritage dataset a european person who has a few segments of dna that resemble these originally european segements in ashkenazis might get a few % ashkenazi.
    for the same reason many people in italy, spain get greek results. it's not necessarily because they have recent "greek" ancestors but because those populations share similar ancestry that now gets labeled as greek.
    Ailchu, you are confused, to put it kindly.

    The Ashkenazi Jews have a very distinct genetic profile because they had an extreme bottleneck event around eight hundred years ago due to persecution, slaughter, really. Since then, those who stayed in the community, i.e. didn't convert and marry out, married only each other. THAT WAS THE LAW. It was a capital offense for a Christian and a Jew to marry unless the Jewish person converted to Christianity. The Christians were busy killing Jews, not marrying them, and, had a Christian tried to convert to Judaism he or she would have been executed as a heretic.

    As a result, when a company like 23andme does an IBD, "NOT" IBS analysis comparing testees to their THOUSANDS of Ashkenazi Jewish samples, they can tell if the testee descends from ASHKENAZI Jews within genealogical time, i.e.3-400 years. Not only that: they can tell you if you're half Ashkenazi, one quarter, one eighth, all the way down to one-thirty secondth. After that, it becomes difficult to tell.

    The same can be done with Sub-Saharan or Amerindian ancestry in otherwise European ancestry people.

    There is just no question about this. It's fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzmosi View Post
    Dear Angela!

    No problem if you don't want or can't answer. I asked these questions to the professional geneticists of the Genographic Project, MyHeritage and 23andMe, also Dr. Anna Széchenyi-Nagy too. They tried to answer and I learned a lot from her and dr. Miguel Vilar (Genographic Project).

    I know from them that all autosomal results just depend on the reference database ie subjective. This is the reason, why I never got two identical results.

    Dear bigsnake49!

    Just as you say. I just wanted to say: In 1772 born a man and he had two sons, and to both of them lives today a direct paternal line descendant. Both have the same family name and both of them Y chr is E-V13-A19238. (I think our direct paternal line father was thracian/dacian maybe, and this is a very rare subgroup. We have just 5 A19238+ sample from all the world and all of them named: Küzmös) But they are no match for each other on FtDNA Family Finder or MyHeritage results. This is the reason why I think, autosomal analysis can't dig deep like 200 years.

    My first autosomal results came from Genographic project.
    68% eastern europe
    25% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora
    2% finland and siberia.

    After I asked him why I got a very different results from MyHeritage, Dr. Vilar re-run my sample on their analytics program. The new results:
    70% eastern europe
    24% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora

    So the database changed, the results will be changed too. My Finland and Siberia roots are disappeared.

    in geno2next i dont get eastern europe like in ftdna my origins 2.0 test
    but i get 17% west central europe out of nowhere ...
    so big yes
    it depends on the references each company use and
    also in the type of algorithm each company use

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ailchu, you are confused, to put it kindly.

    The Ashkenazi Jews have a very distinct genetic profile because they had an extreme bottleneck event around eight hundred years ago due to persecution, slaughter, really. Since then, those who stayed in the community, i.e. didn't convert and marry out, married only each other. THAT WAS THE LAW. It was a capital offense for a Christian and a Jew to marry unless the Jewish person converted to Christianity. The Christians were busy killing Jews, not marrying them, and, had a Christian tried to convert to Judaism he or she would have been executed as a heretic.

    As a result, when a company like 23andme does an IBD, "NOT" IBS analysis comparing testees to their THOUSANDS of Ashkenazi Jewish samples, they can tell if the testee descends from ASHKENAZI Jews within genealogical time, i.e.3-400 years. Not only that: they can tell you if you're half Ashkenazi, one quarter, one eighth, all the way down to one-thirty secondth. After that, it becomes difficult to tell.

    The same can be done with Sub-Saharan or Amerindian ancestry in otherwise European ancestry people.

    There is just no question about this. It's fact.
    it's also fact that ashkenazim mixed with europeans. and how do you know that myheritage does the same analysis as 23andme? correct me if i'm wrong but all populations have IBD's if you go far enough back in time. they just vary in length depending on the number of generations since the last common ancestor. looking at myheritage results of italians, greeks, spanish on youtube with those high % of west asian/near east/north african and whidespread ashkenazi ancestry i think myheritage goes further back in time than just 1000 years.
    we will see when myheritage publishes the numbers for other countries.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 25-08-19 at 21:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    it's also fact that ashkenazim mixed with europeans. and how do you know that myheritage does the same analysis as 23andme? correct me if i'm wrong but all populations have IBD's if you go far enough back in time. they just vary in length depending on the number of generations since the last common ancestor. looking at myheritage results of italians, greeks, spanish on youtube with those high % of west asian/near east/north african and whidespread ashkenazi ancestry i think myheritage goes further back in time than just 1000 years.
    we will see when myheritage publishes the numbers for other countries.
    The fact that Ashkenazim mixed with Europeans is why some people are surprised to find out that they have Ashkenazi ancestry. Most of that admixture is very recent, however. I mean, think about it: in most of Europe Jews were locked into their ghettos most of the time.

    Second of all, as I keep trying to explain, we're talking about IBD analysis, not IBS analysis, which is what you're talking about, and it doesn't work with Sephardic Jews or other kinds of Jews, just Ashkenazi Jews, who didn't exist before around 1200 AD.

    Third of all, I never tested with MyHeritage and can't speak to their algorithm. I did test with 23andme, they've published a "white paper" on their method which I've read, and I know tons of Ashkenazi Jews who have tested with them. If they tell you you're 100% Ashkenazi, you are; if they say you have one Ashkenazi Jewish grandparent, then whether you know it or not, or accept it or not, you have one. That's what happened with a genetics researcher who published his entire genome for scientific purposes. Dienekes told him he was one quarter Ashkenazi. He had no idea. When he investigated, he found that his supposed Italian grandparent was actually Jewish. That was years ago. There's nothing new about it.

    Back before 1600 or so the "IBD" segments are too small using the methods the commercial companies use, but it's meaningless anyway, because it would be such an infinitesimal part of your overall dna.

    What is picked up in most autosomal IBS analyses is just "similar" ancient ancestry.

    I really don't know how to explain it better than that so I'm out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The fact that Ashkenazim mixed with Europeans is why some people are surprised to find out that they have Ashkenazi ancestry. Most of that admixture is very recent, however. I mean, think about it: in most of Europe Jews were locked into their ghettos most of the time.

    Second of all, as I keep trying to explain, we're talking about IBD analysis, not IBS analysis, which is what you're talking about, and it doesn't work with Sephardic Jews or other kinds of Jews, just Ashkenazi Jews, who didn't exist before around 1200 AD.

    Third of all, I never tested with MyHeritage and can't speak to their algorithm. I did test with 23andme, they've published a "white paper" on their method which I've read, and I know tons of Ashkenazi Jews who have tested with them. If they tell you you're 100% Ashkenazi, you are; if they say you have one Ashkenazi Jewish grandparent, then whether you know it or not, or accept it or not, you have one. That's what happened with a genetics researcher who published his entire genome for scientific purposes. Dienekes told him he was one quarter Ashkenazi. He had no idea. When he investigated, he found that his supposed Italian grandparent was actually Jewish. That was years ago. There's nothing new about it.

    Back before 1600 or so the "IBD" segments are too small using the methods the commercial companies use, but it's meaningless anyway, because it would be such an infinitesimal part of your overall dna.

    What is picked up in most autosomal IBS analyses is just "similar" ancient ancestry.

    I really don't know how to explain it better than that so I'm out.
    but ashkenazis also have european admixture it wasn't just onesided. and i keep saying that myheritage probably goes further back in time than just 800 years or when ashkenazis were first settled in europe. you keep mentioning 23andme but i'm talking about myheritage dna results. i can't compare it to 23andme i only see those myheritage results on youtube without 23andme references. it seems like they look at admixtures that are ancient. part of the admixtures found in hungarians might very well be real ashkenazi ancestry. but i'm sceptical if those numbers from myheritage can be used for a demographic study about very recent ashkenazi heritage from staetsky.

    and even if they analysed IBD's better all they could say that the last common ancestor lived around this many generation back in time. they still wouldn't know if this last common ancestor, from which the IBD's descend, was comming from a european source without comparing it to other IBD's of europeans and ashkenazis. or can you explain how they would know that without comparing those segments to other IBD's? i mean if for example a european person became jewish and had jewish children and and this person has a sibling who had children that stayed christian then you would have rather recent IBD's between the ashkenazi and the european population with the last common ancestor beeing the parents of those two persons. so you still have to compare those IBD's to the database meaning it it still dependant on your dataset and maybe your definition what you consider what. or what am i not getting here?

    edit question: couldn't find the answer with a quick google search so i hope someone here knows. does identical by descent allow mutations? probably not right? i'm asking because the definition of IBD alleles allow mutations i think.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 26-08-19 at 16:23.

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    Jews lived mostly in towns and I checked how East Slavic were towns in Eastern Poland (now Ukraine/Belarus/Lithuania) before WW2. It turns out that there was not a single town over 15,000 inhabitants with majority East Slavic or/and Lithuanian population. All towns were >50% Polish-Jewish inhabited, so I suppose that any limited intermarriage between Jews and Christians in Eastern Poland before WW2 was mostly between Jews and Poles, rather than Non-Polish minorities.

    Percent of Polish and Jewish population in towns over 15,000 inhabitants in Former Eastern Poland (1931 census):

    Town / Population / Polish-speaking % (number) / Yiddish % (number) / Hebrew % (number) ===> Total % of Poles & Jews

    Lww (Lviv) / 312231 / 63.5% (198,212) / 21.6% (67,520) / 2.5% (7,796) ===> 88%
    Wilno (Vilnius) / 195071 / 65.9% (128,628) / 24.4% (47,523) / 3.6% (7,073) ===> 94%
    Stanisławw (Ivano-Frankivsk) / 59960 / 43.7% (26,187) / 34.4% (20,651) / 3.8% (2,293) ===> 82%
    Grodno (Grodno) / 49669 / 47.2% (23,458) / 39.7% (19,717) / 2.4% (1,214) ===> 89%
    Brześć (Brest-Litovsk) / 48385 / 42.6% (20,595) / 39.3% (19,032) / 4.7% (2,283) ===> 87%
    Borysław (Boryslav) / 41496 / 55.3% (22,967) / 24.4% (10,139) / 1% (399) ===> 81%
    Rwne (Rivne) / 40612 / 27.5% (11,173) / 50.8% (20,635) / 4.7% (1,922) ===> 83%
    Tarnopol (Ternopil) / 35644 / 77.7% (27,712) / 11.6% (4,130) / 2.4% (872) ===> 92%
    Łuck (Lutsk) / 35554 / 31.9% (11,326) / 46.3% (16,477) / 2.2% (790) ===> 80%
    Kołomyja (Kolomyya) / 33788 / 65% (21,969) / 19.3% (6,506) / 0.9% (292) ===> 85%
    Drohobycz (Drohobych)/ 32261 / 58.4% (18,840) / 23.5% (7,589) / 1.2% (398) ===> 83%
    Pińsk (Pinsk) / 31912 / 23% (7,346) / 50.3% (16,053) / 12.9% (4,128) ===> 86%
    Stryj (Stryi) / 30491 / 42.3% (12,897) / 28.5% (8,691) / 2.9% (870) ===> 74%
    Kowel (Kovel) / 27677 / 37.2% (10,295) / 39.1% (10,821) / 7.1% (1,965) ===> 83%
    Włodzimierz (Vladimir) / 24591 / 39.1% (9,616) / 35.1% (8,623) / 8.1% (1,988) ===> 82%
    Baranowicze (Baranavichy) / 22818 / 42.8% (9,758) / 38.4% (8,754) / 2.9% (669) ===> 84%
    Sambor (Sambir)/ 21923 / 61.9% (13,575) / 22.5% (4,942) / 1.7% (383) ===> 86%
    Krzemieniec (Kremenets) / 19877 / 15.6% (3,108) / 34.7% (6,904) / 1.7% (341) ===> 52%
    Lida (Lida)/ 19326 / 63.3% (12,239) / 24.6% (4,760) / 8% (1,540) ===> 96%
    Czortkw (Chortkiv) / 19038 / 55.2% (10,504) / 22.4% (4,274) / 3.1% (586) ===> 81%
    Brody (Brody) / 17905 / 44.9% (8,031) / 34% (6,085) / 1% (181) ===> 80%
    Słonim (Slonim) / 16251 / 52% (8,452) / 36.5% (5,927) / 4.7% (756) ===> 93%

    The only town in Former Eastern Poland with over 15,000 inhabitants that was close to being majority East Slavic, was Kremenets.

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