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Thread: Hungarians have the most Ashkenazi admixture

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    5 out of 6 members found this post helpful.

    Hungarians have the most Ashkenazi admixture

    See:
    https://blog.myheritage.com/2019/08/...by-myheritage/


    "Our analysis of a huge cohort of 1.8 million anonymized DNA tests — the first of its kind in Jewish demography research — has revealed that the country with the highest proportion of Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity after Israel is Hungary, and not the United States as was previously believed. After Israel, the top countries in terms of significant Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity were Hungary and Russia, followed by Argentina, South Africa, Ukraine, and then the USA. This shows that there is a significant number of people in Hungary who have a Jewish heritage background that they do not acknowledge, are not aware of, or that their ancestors intentionally repressed."

    " 7.6% of the 4,981 people living in Hungary who took the MyHeritage DNA test were found to have 25% or more Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity (equivalent to having at least one grandparent who is fully Ashkenazi Jewish). This is a significantly higher percentage than the 3.5% observed in DNA test-takers living in the USA and the 3.0% in Canada."

    "Hungary’s lead grows further at lower thresholds for Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity. 12.5% of the people tested in Hungary have 10% or more Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity, compared to only 4.7% of people in the USA and 4.0% in Canada. Meanwhile, 4.2% of people tested in Hungary have 50% or more Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity (equivalent to having at least one parent who is fully Jewish), compared to 2.3% in the USA."


    I don't know why this is controversial. Ashkenazi were a much bigger percentage of the population in eastern Europe than they are in the U.S., where all Jews form only about 5% of the population.

    Then there's the fact that there was a lot of assimilation in Hungary, encouraged by the government.

    Of course, the actual numbers might be a little lower, as people with some knowledge of Ashkenazi ancestry might be more likely to test.


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    And also Jews in the United States were able to live more openly than in Eastern and Central Europe, so if a person had a Jewish ancestor they would most likely know. Of course in Hungary there was the case of a far-right politician, Csanad Szegedi, who found out he was Jewish from his mother (which, of course, would make him a Jew according to Jewish Law), and he did wind up embracing his Jewish roots, getting circumcised, visiting Israel, and becoming a practicing Jew.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    And also Jews in the United States were able to live more openly than in Eastern and Central Europe, so if a person had a Jewish ancestor they would most likely know. Of course in Hungary there was the case of a far-right politician, Csanad Szegedi, who found out he was Jewish from his mother (which, of course, would make him a Jew according to Jewish Law), and he did wind up embracing his Jewish roots, getting circumcised, visiting Israel, and becoming a practicing Jew.
    The fear existed in Eastern Europe until very recently, and probably still exists. I posted an article some while ago about some Polish women who "came out of the closet" about their "Jewishness" only recently. They or their mothers had gone underground during the second world war and never felt safe enough to tell even their husbands and children that they were Jewish.

    Imo, they should have taken the secret to their graves unless both they and their children were leaving. I wouldn't trust Europeans about this. It's like a mental disorder. They're still foaming at the mouth about Jews when there aren't even any left.

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    in south eastern europe ashkenazi ancestry is also very common. i think it is also wide spread in lower frequencies in parts of central europe(switzerland/austria/parts of germany). interesting that south africa has also a lot jewish ancestry.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 22-08-19 at 08:26.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The fear existed in Eastern Europe until very recently, and probably still exists. I posted an article some while ago about some Polish women who "came out of the closet" about their "Jewishness" only recently. They or their mothers had gone underground during the second world war and never felt safe enough to tell even their husbands and children that they were Jewish.

    Imo, they should have taken the secret to their graves unless both they and their children were leaving. I wouldn't trust Europeans about this. It's like a mental disorder. They're still foaming at the mouth about Jews when there aren't even any left.

    from the link you gave russia also have a nice number of aschenazi descendnets
    infact they have 7.5% of the testers with my heritage from russia with 25% aschenazi ancestery
    so they are up there just under hungarians
    ........
    about poland only 1 % of the testers with my heritage have 25% aschenazi ancestery extremely low .........
    which is surprising the nazis did there job leaving almost no trace ......
    truly mind blowing .......
    as 1/4 aschenazi myself i find this article interesting......
    so hungary and russia are at the top

    p.s
    and yes till this day there some obsession in eastern europe of the option of having ashkenazi genes
    like they are not people and a disease ......
    so in hungary no wonder that they hide it .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in south eastern europe ashkenazi ancestry is also very common. i think it is also wide spread in lower frequencies in parts of central europe(switzerland/austria/parts of germany). interesting that south africa has also a lot jewish ancestry.
    It's the other way around. The part of Ashkenazis that are ''European'' generally matches up with South Eastern Europe especially close to Sicily South Italy. Interestingly they don't generally match up with Baltid Slavic states like Poles or C Republics. They rarely match up with Russians although I have seen them score 10 to 15 percent Russian in some cases respectively if they are ''Eastern European Jews'' but yeah they do tend to match up in the most Southern parts of Europe from their Maternal line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    from the link you gave russia also have a nice number of aschenazi descendnets
    infact they have 7.5% of the testers with my heritage from russia with 25% aschenazi ancestery
    so they are up there just under hungarians
    ........
    about poland only 1 % of the testers with my heritage have 25% aschenazi ancestery extremely low .........
    which is surprising the nazis did there job leaving almost no trace ......
    truly mind blowing .......
    as 1/4 aschenazi myself i find this article interesting......
    so hungary and russia are at the top

    p.s
    and yes till this day there some obsession in eastern europe of the option of having ashkenazi genes
    like they are not people and a disease ......
    so in hungary no wonder that they hide it .....
    Their general mixes seem to be either Sicilian Russia and maybe Hungary. They generally don't match up to British people Germans Polish etc and I personally find that interesting too as they have been here just as long if not longer and in America than other nations.

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    Lenab, you are completely confused as to what is being discussed here. They're talking about RECENT admixture of Ashkenazi Jews and the "local" people of the host country.

    It has NOTHING to do with ancient origins or even overall similarity of Ashkenazim to various European nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Lenab, you are completely confused as to what is being discussed here. They're talking about RECENT admixture of Ashkenazi Jews and the "local" people of the host country.

    It has NOTHING to do with ancient origins or even overall similarity of Ashkenazim to various European nations.
    I am talking about ''recent'' Ashkenazis there are a bunch of videos online from their Myheritage scores.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc2upvGd5eQ

    And Ashkenazis having some connection to South Europe wouldn't be more or less ancient than having a connection to East Europe much less Hungary. Nothing to do with Israel located there nothing to do with the Levant. Ashkenazis generally have South Italian/Sicilian from their European side or the Balkan part of East Europe. If it was anything to do with spontaneous admixture it would be exactly that. They aren't mixed in with every country they settled in.

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    You still don't get it. They're talking REALLY RECENT admixture, i.e. last 10 generations or 300 years, or companies like 23andme and MyHeritage wouldn't be able to find IBD segments.

    One more time: this isn't about ancient admixture or even Roman Era admixture, and it's not about general autosomal similarity or IBS segments or anything of the sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You still don't get it. They're talking REALLY RECENT admixture, i.e. last 10 generations or 300 years, or companies like 23andme and MyHeritage wouldn't be able to find IBD segments.

    One more time: this isn't about ancient admixture or even Roman Era admixture, and it's not about general autosomal similarity or IBS segments or anything of the sort.
    So how do they find that admixture through the segment samples when samples per nation even on MyHeritage MyAncestry etc are usually only 200 matches per country?

    Ancestry for example uses less than 200 matches per country I don't know why people take a website that does things like that so seriously when a country generally has millions. So unless we have websites like the above yes or Ged match or even better this ''MyTrueAncestry'' to narrow it then yes. I wonder how many of the population of the Ashkenazis took samples from.

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    I can vouch for Lenab's first statement; I forget which one but one of the GEDmatch oracles I get frequently has Ashkenazi as one of the populations in the two-population mix you are genetically closest to in the same proportion as my Sicilian ancestry (with the other population being closer to my remainder Northwest Euro genes, usually Belgian, Dutch, or Southeast English)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Oh lord...

    "Our analysis of a huge cohort of 1.8 million anonymized DNA tests."

    Is that enough samples for you?

    It's not hard to find actual, recent, Ashkenazi ancestry if you indeed have it. 23andme does it all the time. It's because it's distinctive as a result of their bottleneck, and they have lots and lots of Ashkenazi clients. So does My Heritage, which is actually based in Israel if I'm not mistaken.

    The very fact that gedmatch still has Davidski's J test up is ridiculous. It's total garbage.

    If someone wants to know if they have RECENT Ashkenazi ancestry, 23andme and MyHeritage will tell them.

    More and more of these kinds of analyses are being done. 23andme did one for the U.S. and it can pick up recent African and Amerindian ancestry. The same has been done for various areas in Latin America. It's no longer rare to be able to do this when the different ancestries are distinctive enough from one another.

    Again, this only works for the last 3-400 years maximum for IBD analysis of the kind which these companies are able to do.

    Graham Coop was able to do it going back to 500 BC, but he never got into the quagmire of Jewish genetics, to my knowledge. It would be nice if he had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Oh lord...

    "Our analysis of a huge cohort of 1.8 million anonymized DNA tests."

    Is that enough samples for you?

    It's not hard to find actual, recent, Ashkenazi ancestry if you indeed have it. 23andme does it all the time. It's because it's distinctive as a result of their bottleneck, and they have lots and lots of Ashkenazi clients. So does My Heritage, which is actually based in Israel if I'm not mistaken.

    The very fact that gedmatch still has Davidski's J test up is ridiculous. It's total garbage.

    If someone wants to know if they have RECENT Ashkenazi ancestry, 23andme and MyHeritage will tell them.

    More and more of these kinds of analyses are being done. 23andme did one for the U.S. and it can pick up recent African and Amerindian ancestry. The same has been done for various areas in Latin America. It's no longer rare to be able to do this when the different ancestries are distinctive enough from one another.

    Again, this only works for the last 3-400 years maximum for IBD analysis of the kind which these companies are able to do.

    Graham Coop was able to do it going back to 500 BC, but he never got into the quagmire of Jewish genetics, to my knowledge. It would be nice if he had.
    Yes most Autosomal commercial test go back to no more than 500 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    I can vouch for Lenab's first statement; I forget which one but one of the GEDmatch oracles I get frequently has Ashkenazi as one of the populations in the two-population mix you are genetically closest to in the same proportion as my Sicilian ancestry (with the other population being closer to my remainder Northwest Euro genes, usually Belgian, Dutch, or Southeast English)
    Ged match is better but if you're more than one ethnicity their plotting can be somewhat spontaneous I suggest you try that ''my True Ancestry'' website that the users here have made a thread about.

    That J test is not designed for other ethnicity groups apart from Ashkenazis it's not designed to tally your ''Ashkenazi genetic ancestry'' even if you know you might be 1/8 Jewish or whatever.

    Just try that MyTrueAncestry i'd say that's the best test so far up to date and you can actually see the time periods of where the people that you are related to settled which is great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenab View Post
    It's the other way around. The part of Ashkenazis that are ''European'' generally matches up with South Eastern Europe especially close to Sicily South Italy. Interestingly they don't generally match up with Baltid Slavic states like Poles or C Republics. They rarely match up with Russians although I have seen them score 10 to 15 percent Russian in some cases respectively if they are ''Eastern European Jews'' but yeah they do tend to match up in the most Southern parts of Europe from their Maternal line.
    maybe you could argue that certain parts of the european part of the ashkenazi ancestry were also bottlenecked and are now at highest frequency in ashkenazis so they get labeled as ashkenazis without really beeing ashkenazi ancestry. or maybe it can be explained by similar ancestry from neolithic populations in europe and levant?
    i'm not sure if this actually works that way and if something like this is possible. but looking at italian and greek myheritage tests on youtube just now, they all seem to get around 10-20% north african/north african jew plus few more %ashkenazi jewish in southern italy for example which lets me doubt their analysis. though they are the professionals so they are probably right with their stuff.

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    How can people posting on pop gen sites not know the difference between IBS and IBD.

    Go back to the drawing board, people, and do some research.

    Start with the references in this article.
    https://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_state

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    Well, just an additive, how reliable autosomal tests are. I made some for myself:

    1.) Genographic project Geno 2.0:

    70% eastern europe
    24% southern europe
    3% jewish diaspora

    2.) Family Tree DNA Family Finder:

    62% east europe
    20% west and central europe
    15% southeast europe
    <2% Finland
    <2% Oceania
    <1% asia minor
    0% jewish diaspora

    3.) MyHeritage:

    63,6% east europe
    14,5% italian
    13,9% north and west europe
    5,4% north africa
    1,7% baltic
    0,9% papua (under oceania)
    0% jewish ancestry

    4.) 23andMe:

    52,8% eastern european
    36,1% greek and balkan
    2,6% broadly southern european
    1,4% germany
    2,6% broadly northwestern european
    4,2% broadly european
    0,1% manchurian and mongolian
    0,1% broadly east asian and native american
    0,1% unassigned
    0% jewish diaspora

    So who am I? Do I have ashkenazi or italian, papuan, north african or other? The result seems to depend only on the reference base used by the analyst. I think, the Y chr and mtDNA tests are more reliable.

    My ancestors known paternal lines are: (according to YSEQ, FtDNA and YFULL):

    E-V13-A19238. (celtic, or thracian/dacian or illyrian/thracian before the Roman Empire conquest Pannonia and Dacia.
    I1-L22-FGC14412 (scandinavian/varangian from Kiew Rus or earlier from an eastern germanic tribe)
    (3x) I2a-L621 (Y3118; A1328; A7358; indigenous east-european-probably slavic)
    Q-L56-BZ3944 ( inner asian nomad, east-scythian or sarmata/alan)
    R1a-L664-S2866 (western germanic from the coast of the north sea: vandalian, langobard or middle age hospes?)
    R1a-M458-YP415. (western slavic, polish or rusyn)
    (4x) R1a-CTS1211 (YP234; YP1701; PH864; Y3219; 3 east-slavic, 1 east-european, maybe hungarian)
    R1a-Z92-Y138015 (east slavic)
    R1b-U106-S22116 (proto-germanic before the germanic expansion)
    R1b-U152-S8172 (hallstatt celtic)

    I don't know whether I have jewish ancestry or not. But if I have, I will be proud for him, like the others. No one in Hungary should be ashamed of his religion. Before the conquest of the Carpathian basin, the hungarian tribes lived in the Khazar Empire, and 3 rebel khazar tribes joined the hungarians (the kabars). And what was the religion of the khazars?

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    Right, something that is only 2% of all your dna is more "reliable" than something that is 98% of your dna. All righty then.

    Without knowing anything about me, 23andme knows I'm Italian, and over and beyond that pinpoints the two regions of Italy from which I draw ancestry.

    I don't think it can get much better than that.

    Looking at your results and not knowing anything else about you I'd say you were most probably central/Eastern European, i.e. Czechoslavakia, Hungary, somewhere around there.

    Oh, by the way, if I was adopted and went by uniparentals, I'd think I was probably German.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    23andme is the way to go for testing AJ ancestry.

    If 23andme is unavailable, then look up your matches. If you have any real AJ ancestry the number of your "cousins" with Jewish roots will be overwhelming! Even a negligibly small % of true AJ ancestry will return abnormal, unproportionate percentage of Jewish matches !

    It has been discussed ad nauseum that certain companies(alas,some of the "big four" too*...) tend to ascribe Jewish "ancestry" to certain SE populations. Ah yes, to Levantines and Maghrebis too. Take it as "genetic similarities"...
    Any SEE or Mediterranean tester can be modelled as having Jewish ,eh, "ancestry" in various calculators-with good fit.

    *FTDNA used to ascribe certain one-digit % AJ to Blakan testers. Since last year they kinda dropped the idea, doubling the Sephardic %. As "authentic" as before...I have the grim suspicion that MyOrigins 3.0 will be just as bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    23andme is the way to go for testing AJ ancestry.

    If 23andme is unavailable, then look up your matches. If you have any real AJ ancestry the number of your "cousins" with Jewish roots will be overwhelming! Even a negligibly small % of true AJ ancestry will return abnormal, unproportionate percentage of Jewish matches !

    It has been discussed ad nauseum that certain companies(alas,some of the "big four" too*...) tend to ascribe Jewish "ancestry" to certain SE populations. Ah yes, to Levantines and Maghrebis too. Take it as "genetic similarities"...
    Any SEE or Mediterranean tester can be modelled as having Jewish ,eh, "ancestry" in various calculators-with good fit.

    *FTDNA used to ascribe certain one-digit % AJ to Blakan testers. Since last year they kinda dropped the idea, doubling the Sephardic %. As "authentic" as before...I have the grim suspicion that MyOrigins 3.0 will be just as bad.
    Very well put. You could also say: similar proportions of ancient peoples.

    It doesn't mean recent admixture.

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    Ethnic group
    swiss,italian
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    23andme is the way to go for testing AJ ancestry.

    If 23andme is unavailable, then look up your matches. If you have any real AJ ancestry the number of your "cousins" with Jewish roots will be overwhelming! Even a negligibly small % of true AJ ancestry will return abnormal, unproportionate percentage of Jewish matches !

    It has been discussed ad nauseum that certain companies(alas,some of the "big four" too*...) tend to ascribe Jewish "ancestry" to certain SE populations. Ah yes, to Levantines and Maghrebis too. Take it as "genetic similarities"...
    Any SEE or Mediterranean tester can be modelled as having Jewish ,eh, "ancestry" in various calculators-with good fit.

    *FTDNA used to ascribe certain one-digit % AJ to Blakan testers. Since last year they kinda dropped the idea, doubling the Sephardic %. As "authentic" as before...I have the grim suspicion that MyOrigins 3.0 will be just as bad.
    so they really are labeling certain genotypes as ashkenazi without it beeing "real" jewish ancestry in the sense of coming from jewish people and more like shared ancestry between jews and europeans? all companies are doing that with their labeling, it's almost impossible to not do it, but in that case, the numbers of this study are not very informative. and it's hard to say if they actually can back the demographic study of staetsky which is assuming recent ashkenazi ancestry.

  23. #23
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    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I give up.

  24. #24
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    I made a 23andMe test for me. The results said: I have Italian ancestry from two regions: strongly Veneto and weaker Puglia.

    But few months later I made a test for my mother. And when the results were ready, I was no longer italian. They wrote this to me:
    "Imre, we could not detect any Italian ancestry for your DNA at this time."

    I also lost my formerly ancestors: irish from Limerick, french from Alsace and german from Saxony. But that's when I won manchurian and mongolian ancestors.

    And my mother's results?
    Italy Possible Match
    Italy has 20 administrative regions, and we found the strongest evidence of your ancestry in the following 5 regions.
    • Calabria
    • Friuli-Venezia Giulia
    • Campania
    • Sicily
    • Abruzzo



    So my 23andMe results changed after my mother's results arrived. Why? Have my autosomal DNA changed? What is the reason why I lost my genetic connection with Puglia and Veneto? Is this reliable? Meanwhile on MyHeritage, I'm 14,5% italian.

    Another example: My paternal grandfather's brother has irish ancestry. (How could this happened I don't know) 9-23% on different companies. But I have zero irish ancestry (but 0,1% manchurian and 0,9% papuan yes) How is it possible? We have the same Y chr (E-V13-A19238) and 12,9% of our genes are common (according the MyHeritage), so he was really a brother of my grandfather.

    And one more note. I made 11 MyHeritage DNA test (11/1.800.000) from my closer and distant relatives. (To find out they are my relatives or not. If yes, I ordered an Y chr test) I have experienced: if our last common ancestor born more than 200 years, we have no match for each other. One of my relative from direct paternal line (E-V13-A19238) is YF13045 on YFULL. Our last common father born 1772. I have 3659 DNA match on MyHeritage (at this time), but he is not.

    So the autosomal results are not reliable.

  25. #25
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    Tutkun Arnaut's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    It makes sense to me! Hungarians were more tolerant with jewish, so many jews left germany and judaism and converted in christianity. Being more racially mixed Hungarians absorbed many jewish

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