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Thread: World's oldest bikini?

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    World's oldest bikini?

    Maybe, maybe not, but the best preserved one, I think. I don't know how I feel about a leather bikini bottom, though. :)

    From ancient Rome:


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Forgot to post this.

    How things changed for the worse in some ways with the fall of Rome. It would take 1500 years for women to get this kind of freedom back.



    That style of bikini is still around. It's called the bandeau style. Not terribly secure though if you're going to actually go in the water. :) Much better to add two straps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    How things changed for the worse in some ways with the fall of Rome. It would take 1500 years for women to get this kind of freedom back.


    how do you mean that? you mean women who lived on roman territory lost their freedom after rome fell relatively to what they had before in rome or do you mean women were particularly free in rome compared to other societies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    how do you mean that? you mean women who lived on roman territory lost their freedom after rome fell relatively to what they had before in rome or do you mean women were particularly free in rome compared to other societies?
    I meant primarily that women in Europe as a whole, starting in the early years of the Middle Ages after the fall of Rome, wouldn't get the ability to play sports again until the late 19th century as a whole, and even when they did their bodies had to be completely covered up.

    This must have been a whole lot of fun. :)





    There were very few medieval women who bucked the rules. Eleanor of Aquitaine was one of the few. She insisted on accompanying her husband, the French King, to the Holy Land on Crusade and rode astraddle most of the way, something Victorian women certainly weren't allowed to do.

    Why more of them didn't break their necks is beyond me.



    On reflection, I think their bikini tops were more like bindings so the breasts wouldn't flop around during real exertion, like sports bras today, so they probably stayed up alright, which is more than you can say for the modern bandeau top.

    I wonder if the women of Sparta wore those or just went nude? No, they'd have to bind their breasts. Too annoying and painful if they didn't.

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    i wouldn't tie this loss of freedom of women to the fall of rome though. i'm not aware that women had more freedom in rome than elsewhere in europe or near east at any given timepoint. and clothing habits of women were maybe already different during the late stages of the roman empire. could this change be tied to christianity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i wouldn't tie this loss of freedom of women to the fall of rome though. i'm not aware that women had more freedom in rome than elsewhere in europe or near east at any given timepoint. and clothing habits of women were maybe already different during the late stages of the roman empire. could this change be tied to christianity?
    Partly, but you're wrong that Roman women didn't have more freedom than women in certain parts of the known world at that time, i.e. Athens, the Near East.

    They could, after a certain point, inherit property, own property, run businesses, etc. It depends on the time period.

    They didn't have as many rights as Etruscan women, however, and I suppose some would argue that the women of the Celtic tribes had a lot of rights as well. They could at least go to war, which most Roman women couldn't do, although I don't think that's something I'd fight for...

    "Although the rights and status of women in the earliest period of Roman history were more restricted than in the late Republic and Empire, as early as the 5th century BC, Roman women could own land, write their own wills, and appear in court. The historian Valerius Maximus devotes a section of his work On Memorable Deeds and Speeches to women who conducted cases on their own behalf, or on behalf of others.[46] These women showed ability as orators in the courtroom, even though oratory was considered a defining pursuit of the most ambitious Roman men. "

    "An emancipated woman legally became sui iuris, or her own person, and could own property and dispose of it as she saw fit. If a pater familias died intestate, the law required the equal division of his estate amongst his children, regardless of their age and sex. A will that did otherwise, or emancipated any family member without due process of law, could be challenged.[54] From the late Republic onward, a woman who inherited a share equal with her brothers would have been independent of agnatic control.[55]As in the case of minors, an emancipated woman had a legal guardian (tutor) appointed to her. She retained her powers of administration, however, and the guardian's main if not sole purpose was to give formal consent to actions.[56] The guardian had no say in her private life, and a woman sui iuris could marry as she pleased.[57] A woman also had certain avenues of recourse if she wished to replace an obstructive tutor.[58] Under Augustus, a woman who had gained the ius liberorum, the legal right to certain privileges after bearing three children, was also released from guardianship,[59] and the emperor Claudius banned agnatic guardianship. The role of guardianship as a legal institution gradually diminished, and by the 2nd century CE the jurist Gaius said he saw no reason for it.[60] The Christianization of the Empire, beginning with the conversion of the Emperor Constantine in the early 4th century, eventually had consequences for the legal status of women."

    "In marriage by usus, if a woman was absent for three consecutive nights at least once a year, she would avoid her husband establishing legal control over her. This differed from the Athenian custom of arranged marriage and sequestered wives who were not supposed to walk in the street unescorted."

    "
    Divorce was a legal but relatively informal affair which mainly involved a wife leaving her husband’s house and taking back her dowry. According to the historian Valerius Maximus, divorces were taking place by 604 BCE or earlier, and the law code as embodied in the mid-5th century BCE by the Twelve Tables provides for divorce. Divorce was socially acceptable if carried out within social norms (mos maiorum). By the time of Cicero and Julius Caesar, divorce was relatively common and "shame-free," the subject of gossip rather than a social disgrace.[71]"


    You can read the article for yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_...family_and_law


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    Sixty years ago, the world's first swimsuit made its introduction at a poolside design show in Paris. The bathing suit is presently so omnipresent—and similarly so shy—that it's difficult to fathom how stunning individuals once discovered it. At the point when the two-piece initially showed up, its noteworthy cut scandalized even the French style models who should wear it; they won't, and the first fashioner needed to enroll a stripper. The pictures beneath represent how the swimsuit gradually picked up acknowledgment—first on the Riviera, at that point in the United States—and turned into a beachfront staple.


    At the point when the swimsuit was uncovered in 1946, it was in no way, shape or form the first occasion when that ladies had worn so uncovering a piece of clothing out in the open. In the fourth century, for instance, Roman gymnasts wore bandeau tops, swimsuit bottoms, and even anklets that would take a gander at home on the sea shores of Southern California today.

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    How do you even found those stuff? Really like your posts, by the way :)

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    I think that the loss of freedom by women had a lot to do with the advent of Christianity (an Abrahamic religion). Just remember that the model for women in the Christian religion was The Virgin Mary withe the emphasis on Virgin. They elevated her to the level of a Godess sometimes completely eclipsing her own son.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I think that the loss of freedom by women had a lot to do with the advent of Christianity (an Abrahamic religion). Just remember that the model for women in the Christian religion was The Virgin Mary withe the emphasis on Virgin. They elevated her to the level of a Godess sometimes completely eclipsing her own son.

    all religions have kept women under check, and have organised for male control over females, this is why only men "rule" in any religious organisation ...........not just Christianity , but all religions
    I cannot find any woman who controls any religious institution, can you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    all religions have kept women under check, and have organised for male control over females, this is why only men "rule" in any religious organisation ...........not just Christianity , but all religions
    I cannot find any woman who controls any religious institution, can you ?
    Torzio: Not to overstate my educational background in theological training, but I did take 3 years of Theology as a layperson Catholic and am pretty well versed in Theology and Ecclesiology. Going back to my days in my 20's and even through the papacy of Benedict, I was very active in theological blogs. So while I don't wish any ill will towards this current Pope, lets say I am already praying for the repose of his soul even though he is still alive, so kind gives you and insight on what I think of him.

    Now back to your question, the situation in Europe, and I would think Australia where you live from where I see it from America is not the same in the USA, which has a more "market based " competition for congregants. In Europe you have a largely Secular population, a Muslim and Jewish Minority and among Traditional Christendom, the Catholics found in all areas of Europe, but still largely in Southern, Central and Eastern Europe, not as much in NW and Northern Europe save Ireland. You the have the Protestant Church of England (Anglicans), you have the other Confessional Protestants the Lutherans, common in Germanic and Scandanavian Europe and the Reformed Calvinist, more common in the Netherlands and Scotland and England.


    The USA has thousands of divergent sects/groups for example. With respect to some traditional Protestant confessions, in the USA, the Episcopalians, the American Branch of the Church of England has had a female Presiding Bishop. The American United Methodist Church in the past has had a a President of its Church Council of Bishops. The American branch of the Evangelical Lutheran Confession has had a Presiding Bishop who was a female. The American Baptist Association, which is an alliance of Baptist in Northern US States (as opposed for example to the Southern Baptist Association which is not in communion with the Northern American Baptism Association) has also had a Female as leader of their Association (The Baptist do not use terms like Bishop, I think she was the Secretary of the Association).

    Liberal leaning Protestant confessions in the USA, referred to often in the vernacular as Mainline Protestantism such as the groups Mentioned above have about 30 to 40% of their clergy that are Female.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I think that the loss of freedom by women had a lot to do with the advent of Christianity (an Abrahamic religion). Just remember that the model for women in the Christian religion was The Virgin Mary withe the emphasis on Virgin. They elevated her to the level of a Godess sometimes completely eclipsing her own son.
    Here is the thing, pagan Greek or Roman women didn't enjoy great freedom either, in spite of female priests and worship of female Gods. Matter of fact, Christianity abolished the cruel infanticide, of which unwanted baby daughters often fell victim to. In addition, Christian communities were known to collect abandoned babies from the garbage dump and adopting them. Many of these adopted Christian girls married pagan males and converted their husbands to Christianity. What many don't know women played a significant role in spreading Christianity. Furthermore, the Romans mocked Christianity for being the religion of women, slaves and children. Anyway, I don’t like the term Abrahamic religions since it's often used in a disparaging way, and because in Christianity Christ and his gospel are the centre, and not Abraham.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Torzio: Not to overstate my educational background in theological training, but I did take 3 years of Theology as a layperson Catholic and am pretty well versed in Theology and Ecclesiology. Going back to my days in my 20's and even through the papacy of Benedict, I was very active in theological blogs. So while I don't wish any ill will towards this current Pope, lets say I am already praying for the repose of his soul even though he is still alive, so kind gives you and insight on what I think of him.

    Now back to your question, the situation in Europe, and I would think Australia where you live from where I see it from America is not the same in the USA, which has a more "market based " competition for congregants. In Europe you have a largely Secular population, a Muslim and Jewish Minority and among Traditional Christendom, the Catholics found in all areas of Europe, but still largely in Southern, Central and Eastern Europe, not as much in NW and Northern Europe save Ireland. You the have the Protestant Church of England (Anglicans), you have the other Confessional Protestants the Lutherans, common in Germanic and Scandanavian Europe and the Reformed Calvinist, more common in the Netherlands and Scotland and England.


    The USA has thousands of divergent sects/groups for example. With respect to some traditional Protestant confessions, in the USA, the Episcopalians, the American Branch of the Church of England has had a female Presiding Bishop. The American United Methodist Church in the past has had a a President of its Church Council of Bishops. The American branch of the Evangelical Lutheran Confession has had a Presiding Bishop who was a female. The American Baptist Association, which is an alliance of Baptist in Northern US States (as opposed for example to the Southern Baptist Association which is not in communion with the Northern American Baptism Association) has also had a Female as leader of their Association (The Baptist do not use terms like Bishop, I think she was the Secretary of the Association).

    Liberal leaning Protestant confessions in the USA, referred to often in the vernacular as Mainline Protestantism such as the groups Mentioned above have about 30 to 40% of their clergy that are Female.
    In Australia , there is no religion in the constitution, it is blank ..........and whenever it is brought up in parliament , that person is usually dismissed in a year or 2 ...............religious rules do not apply in Australia, our constitution is a secular one.....................we do have religion in our census ( next one this August ) but it is only for statistical purposes and serves zero on how the country is identified ............IIRC the last census , had 51% christian, 37% no religion, and all the others made up of 3% or less.

    You cannot even bring up religious system/controls/rules to justify ones behavior in how you think ...............ie, you marry at 18 and not before , etc

    In australia we have a pre-census survey a year before and what was found in ...............religion and in 2003, almost three-quarters of the population (73.2%) nominated a religion ( any religion ) to which they belonged. By the end of 2020, that figure had fallen to just over half (53.4%).
    So I expect no-religion will be about 45 to 47 % for this census

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    Torzio: in Post #10 you asked BigSnake about Woman in charge of Religions. How did you turn this into a discussion into the Constitution of Australia and why the Bold text. My post clearly in full disclosure 1) Identified myself as a Catholic to provide context to my post #11. You obviously are not Catholic, so be it. The US Constitution does not have a State Religion either. 2) I pointed out that there are indeed in the USA what are in the the American religious lexicon referred to as Liberal_Mainline Protestants that indeed to have or have had Women who were the Presiding Bishop or General Secretaries of their Confession. 3) In Australia where you live, one Diocese in the Anglican Church of Australia (the Australian Branch of the Church of England) has a Female Bishop. She is not the Presiding Bishop of the entire Anglican Church of Australia. I am aware of this because when it happened, more Traditional Anglicans looked to move to Rome, but that was when Benedict was Pope if I remember correctly (in 2008) when she (her name is Goldsberry I think) was appointed as an Auxillary. A few years ago she was appointed to lead an Anglican Diocese.

    So I thought the discussion was on Religion and Women in leadership, not what or what not is allowed in the Constitutions of Australia or the USA, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Here is the thing, pagan Greek or Roman women didn't enjoy great freedom either, in spite of female priests and worship of female Gods. Matter of fact, Christianity abolished the cruel infanticide, of which unwanted baby daughters often fell victim to. In addition, Christian communities were known to collect abandoned babies from the garbage dump and adopting them. Many of these adopted Christian girls married pagan males and converted their husbands to Christianity. What many don't know women played a significant role in spreading Christianity. Furthermore, the Romans mocked Christianity for being the religion of women, slaves and children. Anyway, I don’t like the term Abrahamic religions since it's often used in a disparaging way, and because in Christianity Christ and his gospel are the centre, and not Abraham.
    You know the history of the early Church in pagan Rome and other major cities in the empire quite well. I am quite impressed and I am not impressed easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Torzio: in Post #10 you asked BigSnake about Woman in charge of Religions. How did you turn this into a discussion into the Constitution of Australia and why the Bold text. My post clearly in full disclosure 1) Identified myself as a Catholic to provide context to my post #11. You obviously are not Catholic, so be it. The US Constitution does not have a State Religion either. 2) I pointed out that there are indeed in the USA what are in the the American religious lexicon referred to as Liberal_Mainline Protestants that indeed to have or have had Women who were the Presiding Bishop or General Secretaries of their Confession. 3) In Australia where you live, one Diocese in the Anglican Church of Australia (the Australian Branch of the Church of England) has a Female Bishop. She is not the Presiding Bishop of the entire Anglican Church of Australia. I am aware of this because when it happened, more Traditional Anglicans looked to move to Rome, but that was when Benedict was Pope if I remember correctly (in 2008) when she (her name is Goldsberry I think) was appointed as an Auxillary. A few years ago she was appointed to lead an Anglican Diocese.

    So I thought the discussion was on Religion and Women in leadership, not what or what not is allowed in the Constitutions of Australia or the USA, etc.

    bold text is always a copy and paste from the net ....that how I do it and have always done it......... all the time

    I thought it was also on women and religion which is why I say that the "boys club " religion does not allow equality for women ............we need to just propmote full gender equality in this world , once that is done, the other issue will disappear , like skin colour, ethnicity etc

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    It is only in the last 10-20 years that we have women celebrants in the church. Before that women were repressed, chattel and property of their fathers and husbands, damaged goods if they lost their virginity before marriage. The term abrahamic religion is used correctly because it a stern male god based. Both Islam and Christianity are based upon the Hebrew God. Jesus did not come to found a new religion but to reform the religion of the Hebrews. It is his followers and particularly Paul that changed that aim.

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