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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    okunevo:


    [the hopi believe that their intimacy with rattlesnakes and other ophidian species engenders rainfall and fecundity upon the high desert.]



    ^ "lord of rain" and "leader of rain".
    I think they are all same concept of malta boy artifact of sun and snake;

    "Another example of women in the Libyan style, with locks. Their invocatory gesture indicates a ceremony, again appearing to call down waters from the heavens to fructify the earth"


    https://www.suppressedhistories.net/...geometric.html


    okunevo symbols at the bottom of pottery:



    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/pak...th-by-taliban/

    another symbol


    https://www.thoughtco.com/time-perio...-greece-118838
    Last edited by johen; 06-10-19 at 19:39.

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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    3. The above shaman holds a drum composed of Circle (sky) and Cross. The Cross symbolizes A flying bird (crow) being a messenger from the Circle of sky or heaven. That is a shaman, a messenger from sky or heaven to connect heaven to earth. Ancient zhou king in China was called as a son of sky/heaven天子 , who thought he got a mandate from sky/ heaven天命.

    zhou horse burial:

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...-religion.html

    scyhtian horse burial:
    https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ythianhors.jpg




    The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]



    https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistor...oto_blog&h=480

    shaft tomb in china

    http://www.kaogu.cn/en/News/New_disc...616/50594.html



    aa

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    same pattern and same artifacts in mycenaean and seima turbino:

    -> detailed goldwork grave 4 in grave circle a at mycenae:

    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Greec...tifulWowSm.jpg

    -> borodino treature if seima turbino:

    same pattern:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/4a3/...206ed76f92.png

    same artifacts:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY
    The relationship between PIE and american Indian language is claimed again:

    FrankN said...Since I mentionned possible relations between the PIE and the Proto Nivkh-Algic-Wakashan (PAW) vocabulary in my previous comment, and remember someone having asked about it not too long ago, here follow several examples.
    Sources: S. Nikolev 2017 http://www.jolr.ru/files/(232)jlr201...4(250-278).pdf
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...n_Swadesh_list

    "belly": PAW *ʔVta:gA, PIE *úderos
    "big": PA *meʔł (Miami-Peoria mehš-i), PIE *méǵh₂s
    "burn": PNA *tu(:)ʁwV, PIE dʰegʷʰ-
    "come": PW *Gi:, PIE *gʷeh₂-
    "die": PNA *mo:ryV, PIE *mer-
    "dog": PAW *q’änV, PIE *ḱwṓ(n) [a Wanderwort]
    „drink“: PAW *hək’ʷE (also „water“), PIE *h₁egʷʰ-
    "egg": PNA *ʔə:wV, PIE *h₂ōwyóm
    "fish": PAW *ǯu: , PIE *dʰǵʰu- (->Balto-Slav. *źū́ˀs)
    "good": PA *wal-, *wel- [comp. Engl. "well"]
    "hair": PAW *həpV(-lV), PIE *pulh₂-
    "I": PAW *ńV, PIE *me (a paleo-word)
    "kill" PAW *χVlV ≈ *ʔVlχV (compare to English!)
    "to lie": PAW *łi:hV, PIE *légʰyeti
    "long": PAW *gɨl’V, PIE *dl̥h₁gʰós (metathesis?)
    "man, male": PWN *wi:s-, PIE *wiHrós
    "meat": PAW *mi:-, PIE *mḗms (a paleo-word, c.f. Malay makan "to eat)
    "moon": PAW *l’u:ŋ’ʒV, PIE *lowksneh₂
    "night" PAW *ńä:gʷE ~ *ńä:gʷTV, PIE *nókʷts
    "nose": PWS *nic-, PIE *Hnéh₂s
    "one": PAW *ń’ə, PIE *(H)óynos
    "round" PAW *kOlxV ~ *k’Olk’V [No PIE root given, but compare to "wheel" terminology]
    "say": PW *wa:-, PIE *wéwket
    "see": PWN *du:qʷ-, PIE *derḱ-
    "small": PNi *məc-ki-, PIE *mey-
    "this": PAW *gV ~ *gʷV, PIE *koh₂ (a paleo-word)
    "warm": PWN *kʷu:xʷ-, PIE *gʷʰer-
    "water": PAW *hək’ʷE ≈ *ʔəhk’ʷE, PIE *h₂ekʷeh₂
    "what, who": PAW *qV, *gʷV; PIE *kʷis (a paleo-root, equally present in PU)
    "Woman": PWN *Gən- ; PIE *gʷḗn
    "far (away)": PAlg *wa:ɣl-aw, PIE *wi
    „heavy“: PWN *Gʷi:- , PIE *gʷréh₂us

  4. #29
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    These are all extremely general similarities that, as I can see, include many other (non-IE) cultures, not just specific IE cultural markers, so I honestly don't think why the IE migration should be explained only by mentioning Seima-Turbino. Besides, being so vague, some of them may be simply repeated cultural patterns and visual archetypes, and some others may be remnants of such a primordial cultural exchange that you can find them even in the Americas, where the aDNA record shows no major genetic changes in most of the continent after the Proto-Amerinds of Late Paleolithic era and only a partial change in some parts of North America more than 5000 years ago.

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    If PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia

    This seima turbino culture seems to be a continuation of that WSHG and CHG.
    As I quoted chinese scholar papers several times, PIE clearly landed on china. But who did? The only thing we knew is that cannibalist seima turbino and Karasuk culture were found over there with maximum brutality.
    Even if Harvard lab seperates Caucasus cline of east europe and WHSG cline of central asia, we already discussed by a caucasus paper by wang / archaeology paper that the caucasus culture nearly impacted upon steppe culture genetically and archaeologically. So I think the separation is meaningless, and it is why yamna people could migrate into altai.
    Yamna culture had sunhead and animal culture like american indian and altai. R1a EHG had mtDNA C with lake baikal pottery, introducing supine burial type of east eurasia. And they were buried with a small amounts of mongoloid skulls.
    (I always said that the PIE was created in the trianlge zone of Hotu cave J with baikal pottery, Karelian R1a/J with the pottery and lake baikal R1a, considering yamna admixture)

    Every scholar focus upon only arsnic bronze sintashta, but they were surrounded by tin bronze seima turbino. Thus WSHG outlier of sintashata, R1a, r1b and Q1a seems to be seima turbino people. I think this outlier trio were PIE spreaders with zeus/Indra/Tiandi concept to Mycenaean, china bronze and aryan with third eye. The third eye, sky lord and metallurgy of thuderbolt (or snake) concept is closely related with okunevo petroglyph also.
    This cannibalist seima turbino has something to do with another cannibalist scythian R1a, R1b, and Q1a with animal art and flexed or ring daggers. Moreover their WSHG territory would be never ruled by any other people EVEN until now. Slavic people genetically has not still run over Volga river at all. When we draw a line between st. Petersburg and Moscow, one side people is Slavic russian and the other Fin russian ethnically.




    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture

    :


    china bronze:


    aryan sikha:
    The sikha or shikha (Sanskrit: शिखा; IAST: śikhā; "crest"; Hindi चोटी (choTi)) means flame, powerful, ray of light, peak of a mountain. It is a name of Hindu / Indian origin, and is commonly used for females. It also means long tuft, or lock of hair, left on top or on the back of the shaven head of a male Orthodox Hindu.
    Last edited by johen; 28-02-20 at 04:40.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Johen, I suppose Ygorcs has explained very well mt proper thoughts about vague and general similarities between human cultures.
    If I believe Grigoryev (I' m very weak in archeology) Seyma-Turbino would have been a culture (or a metallurgic aspect of culture) passed through South Central Asia, maybe born farther in Southwest, from remote Middle East origin. The later devlopment of this aspect after stage in Altay could have concerned different ethnies and languages, sometimes with intrusion of some male elite (perhaps, some clades of Y-N in future Finno-Ugric lands), I don't know for sure.
    ATW I thank you for the documentation you send us here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Johen, I suppose Ygorcs has explained very well mt proper thoughts about vague and general similarities between human cultures.
    If I believe Grigoryev (I' m very weak in archeology) Seyma-Turbino would have been a culture (or a metallurgic aspect of culture) passed through South Central Asia, maybe born farther in Southwest, from remote Middle East origin. The later devlopment of this aspect after stage in Altay could have concerned different ethnies and languages, sometimes with intrusion of some male elite (perhaps, some clades of Y-N in future Finno-Ugric lands), I don't know for sure.
    ATW I thank you for the documentation you send us here.
    I think grave circle B in Greece has a key to solve, but when to get their aDNA?
    Anyway see the interesting skulls to be related with botai:

    The DNA of two buried people from kurgans #67 and #67a of Aigyrzhal-2 site were revealed in arecently-published article on the genetics of Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations on the territoryof Southern and Central Asia. According to the results, these buried people were genetically linkedto the people of the Botai culture in Eneolithic of Kazakhstan (Narasimhan et al., 2019). But thephysical type of the buried people from Aigyrzhal-2 site was not similar to the physical type of theancient Botai people. This is another mystery that will require further research if it is to be solved.
    "Picture 6. Aigyrzhal-2. The skull from burial mound number 67a.The Early Bronze Age. Photo by Y. Kitov."






  8. #33
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^

    Same thing here in brand new paper:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...03.25.004606v1

    The two oldest individuals from the Mongolia ‘West’ cluster have very different ancestry: they are from the Shatar Chuluu kurgan site associated with the Afanasievo culture, with one directly dated to 3316-2918 calBCE (we quote a 95% confidence interval here and in what follows whenever we mention a direct date), and are indistinguishable in ancestry from previously published ancient Afanasievo individuals from the Altai region of present-day Russia (…)

    The early Afanasievo individual from Bayankhongor aimag with precise radiocarbon date is of hg. R1b1a1a2a1a-L151, which – if confirmed with BAM inferences – would date the expansion of this lineage back to Late Repin instead of the later West Yamnaya migration, in line with the earlier mean estimates of YTree (compared to YFull). The other individual is of hg. J1, possibly of the same subclade as the Khvalynsk chieftain reported by Anthony (2019).


    Another paper shows the R1b guy, who is not related with afanasievo skulls
    :

    [img]www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/18090913406bf47745e1a5b03e.jpg.thumb.jpg[/img]
    [img]www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/180909134059b429e3c3e0b7a2.jpg.thumb.jpg[/img]

    So anthropology has a big problem, but genetics is a pure science?

    However, american, russian and east asian anthropologist unanimously said that IA chandman skull clusters with xoungnu skull to be proved by genetics. Their skull type is paleo type with cromagnon, jomon and polynesian. anthropologically their skulls could not be created by bronze genes at all.




    "A striking finding in light of previous archaeological and genetic data is that the male child from Kurgak govi (individual I13957, skeletal code AT_629) has no evidence of Yamnaya-related ancestry despite his association with Afanasievo material culture (for example, he was buried in a barrow in the form of circular platform edged by vertical stone slabs, in stretched position on the back on the bottom of deep rectangular pit and with a typical Afanasievo egg-shaped vessel; his late Afanasievo chronology is confirmed by a direct radiocarbon date of 2858-2505 BCE). This is the first known case of an individual buried with Afanasievo cultural traditions who is not overwhelmingly Yamnaya-related, and he also shows genetic continuity with an individual buried at the same site Kurgak govi 2 in a square barrow (individual I6361, skeletal code AT_635, direct radiocarbon date 2618-2487 BCE). We label this second individuals as having an Ulgii cultural association, although a different archaeological assessment associates this individual to the Afanasievo or Chemurchek cultures, so it is possible that this provides a second example of Afanasievo material culture being adopted by individuals without any Yamnaya ancestry."


    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 18:28.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    However, american, russian and east asian anthropologist unanimously said that IA chandman skull clusters with xoungnu skull to be proved by genetics. Their skull type is paleo type with cromagnon, jomon and polynesian. anthropologically their skulls could not be created by bronze genes at all.
    I think they look like this:


    Kushan ruler:

    Xoungnu:


    Ephthalites (white Hun)




    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-s...ame-immortal-/


    maybe connected to china brzone and Qin shihuwang also:




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    If PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia

    ''The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
    (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae, has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009). Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China 203 (Jia and Betts, 2010). We analyzed two Chemurchek individuals from the southern Altai site of Yagshiin Huduu and one from Khundii Gobi (KUM001) in the northern Altai. Compared to Afanasievo_Mongolia, the Yagshiin Huduu individuals also show a high degree of Western ancestry but are displaced in PCA (Fig. 2), having also a strong genetic affinity with ANE207 related ancient individuals such as AfontovaGora3 (AG3), West_Siberia_N, and Botai (Fig. 208 3a; Fig. S9, S11). We find that these Chemurchek individuals (Chemurchek_Altai) are genetically similar to Dali_EBA (Fig. 3a)''

    2 Z2103 in Chemurchek
    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 20:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Originally Posted by johenIf PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia



    ''The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
    (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae, has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009). Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China 203 (Jia and Betts, 2010). We analyzed two Chemurchek individuals from the southern Altai site of Yagshiin Huduu and one from Khundii Gobi (KUM001) in the northern Altai. Compared to Afanasievo_Mongolia, the Yagshiin Huduu individuals also show a high degree of Western ancestry but are displaced in PCA (Fig. 2), having also a strong genetic affinity with ANE207 related ancient individuals such as AfontovaGora3 (AG3), West_Siberia_N, and Botai (Fig. 208 3a; Fig. S9, S11). We find that these Chemurchek individuals (Chemurchek_Altai) are genetically similar to Dali_EBA (Fig. 3a)''

    2 R1b in Chemurchek
    we already know that millet was found in stredny stog culture. I think they would be all WSHG-related people's job including language (nostratic?)


    https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Kov..._2011._P._1-58

    yangshao


    Cucuteni. Phase A3.Tell Harsova.(the fertility goddess in Lajja Gauri attitude)



    the other pottery similarities between cucuteni and Yangshao:
    https://www.scribd.com/document/2018...Zhou-dynasties


    Poulnabrone dolmen, the Burren, County Clare, Ireland



    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture


    Dolmen at Ganghwa Island, South Korea



    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture


    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 22:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post




    Two awesome maps related with PIE

    Z93 migration thru ISMC



    R1b –L23 ( i.e r1b-z2103 )



    - Archaeologically from mesolithic to eneolithic, south ural had contacted to S-E aral sea area, where cattle and horse bones were buried.
    - yamna-like khvalynsk Q1a who was not welcomed.
    - wagon burial culture of step maykop Q1a in yamna Z2013 pit
    - afanasievo Z2103 AND 3 Q1a
    - sintashta Z2103 and its outlier WSHG Z2103
    - Now Dali-like Z2103 in chemurchek
    - Afanasivo R1b PH310 in shatar chuluu kurgan.

    see Dali and khvalynsk admizture, are they same people?:


    [ R1b-M73 ]
    Last edited by johen; 31-03-20 at 20:06.

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