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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    okunevo:


    [the hopi believe that their intimacy with rattlesnakes and other ophidian species engenders rainfall and fecundity upon the high desert.]



    ^ "lord of rain" and "leader of rain".
    I think they are all same concept of malta boy artifact of sun and snake;

    "Another example of women in the Libyan style, with locks. Their invocatory gesture indicates a ceremony, again appearing to call down waters from the heavens to fructify the earth"


    https://www.suppressedhistories.net/...geometric.html


    okunevo symbols at the bottom of pottery:



    http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/pak...th-by-taliban/

    another symbol


    https://www.thoughtco.com/time-perio...-greece-118838
    Last edited by johen; 06-10-19 at 19:39.

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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    3. The above shaman holds a drum composed of Circle (sky) and Cross. The Cross symbolizes A flying bird (crow) being a messenger from the Circle of sky or heaven. That is a shaman, a messenger from sky or heaven to connect heaven to earth. Ancient zhou king in China was called as a son of sky/heaven天子 , who thought he got a mandate from sky/ heaven天命.

    zhou horse burial:

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...-religion.html

    scyhtian horse burial:
    https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ythianhors.jpg




    The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]



    https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistor...oto_blog&h=480

    shaft tomb in china

    http://www.kaogu.cn/en/News/New_disc...616/50594.html



    aa

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    same pattern and same artifacts in mycenaean and seima turbino:

    -> detailed goldwork grave 4 in grave circle a at mycenae:

    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Greec...tifulWowSm.jpg

    -> borodino treature if seima turbino:

    same pattern:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/4a3/...206ed76f92.png

    same artifacts:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY
    The relationship between PIE and american Indian language is claimed again:

    FrankN said...Since I mentionned possible relations between the PIE and the Proto Nivkh-Algic-Wakashan (PAW) vocabulary in my previous comment, and remember someone having asked about it not too long ago, here follow several examples.
    Sources: S. Nikolev 2017 http://www.jolr.ru/files/(232)jlr201...4(250-278).pdf
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...n_Swadesh_list

    "belly": PAW *ʔVta:gA, PIE *úderos
    "big": PA *meʔł (Miami-Peoria mehš-i), PIE *méǵh₂s
    "burn": PNA *tu(:)ʁwV, PIE dʰegʷʰ-
    "come": PW *Gi:, PIE *gʷeh₂-
    "die": PNA *mo:ryV, PIE *mer-
    "dog": PAW *q’änV, PIE *ḱwṓ(n) [a Wanderwort]
    „drink“: PAW *hək’ʷE (also „water“), PIE *h₁egʷʰ-
    "egg": PNA *ʔə:wV, PIE *h₂ōwyóm
    "fish": PAW *ǯu: , PIE *dʰǵʰu- (->Balto-Slav. *źū́ˀs)
    "good": PA *wal-, *wel- [comp. Engl. "well"]
    "hair": PAW *həpV(-lV), PIE *pulh₂-
    "I": PAW *ńV, PIE *me (a paleo-word)
    "kill" PAW *χVlV ≈ *ʔVlχV (compare to English!)
    "to lie": PAW *łi:hV, PIE *légʰyeti
    "long": PAW *gɨl’V, PIE *dl̥h₁gʰós (metathesis?)
    "man, male": PWN *wi:s-, PIE *wiHrós
    "meat": PAW *mi:-, PIE *mḗms (a paleo-word, c.f. Malay makan "to eat)
    "moon": PAW *l’u:ŋ’ʒV, PIE *lowksneh₂
    "night" PAW *ńä:gʷE ~ *ńä:gʷTV, PIE *nókʷts
    "nose": PWS *nic-, PIE *Hnéh₂s
    "one": PAW *ń’ə, PIE *(H)óynos
    "round" PAW *kOlxV ~ *k’Olk’V [No PIE root given, but compare to "wheel" terminology]
    "say": PW *wa:-, PIE *wéwket
    "see": PWN *du:qʷ-, PIE *derḱ-
    "small": PNi *məc-ki-, PIE *mey-
    "this": PAW *gV ~ *gʷV, PIE *koh₂ (a paleo-word)
    "warm": PWN *kʷu:xʷ-, PIE *gʷʰer-
    "water": PAW *hək’ʷE ≈ *ʔəhk’ʷE, PIE *h₂ekʷeh₂
    "what, who": PAW *qV, *gʷV; PIE *kʷis (a paleo-root, equally present in PU)
    "Woman": PWN *Gən- ; PIE *gʷḗn
    "far (away)": PAlg *wa:ɣl-aw, PIE *wi
    „heavy“: PWN *Gʷi:- , PIE *gʷréh₂us

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    These are all extremely general similarities that, as I can see, include many other (non-IE) cultures, not just specific IE cultural markers, so I honestly don't think why the IE migration should be explained only by mentioning Seima-Turbino. Besides, being so vague, some of them may be simply repeated cultural patterns and visual archetypes, and some others may be remnants of such a primordial cultural exchange that you can find them even in the Americas, where the aDNA record shows no major genetic changes in most of the continent after the Proto-Amerinds of Late Paleolithic era and only a partial change in some parts of North America more than 5000 years ago.

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    If PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia

    This seima turbino culture seems to be a continuation of that WSHG and CHG.
    As I quoted chinese scholar papers several times, PIE clearly landed on china. But who did? The only thing we knew is that cannibalist seima turbino and Karasuk culture were found over there with maximum brutality.
    Even if Harvard lab seperates Caucasus cline of east europe and WHSG cline of central asia, we already discussed by a caucasus paper by wang / archaeology paper that the caucasus culture nearly impacted upon steppe culture genetically and archaeologically. So I think the separation is meaningless, and it is why yamna people could migrate into altai.
    Yamna culture had sunhead and animal culture like american indian and altai. R1a EHG had mtDNA C with lake baikal pottery, introducing supine burial type of east eurasia. And they were buried with a small amounts of mongoloid skulls.
    (I always said that the PIE was created in the trianlge zone of Hotu cave J with baikal pottery, Karelian R1a/J with the pottery and lake baikal R1a, considering yamna admixture)

    Every scholar focus upon only arsnic bronze sintashta, but they were surrounded by tin bronze seima turbino. Thus WSHG outlier of sintashata, R1a, r1b and Q1a seems to be seima turbino people. I think this outlier trio were PIE spreaders with zeus/Indra/Tiandi concept to Mycenaean, china bronze and aryan with third eye. The third eye, sky lord and metallurgy of thuderbolt (or snake) concept is closely related with okunevo petroglyph also.
    This cannibalist seima turbino has something to do with another cannibalist scythian R1a, R1b, and Q1a with animal art and flexed or ring daggers. Moreover their WSHG territory would be never ruled by any other people EVEN until now. Slavic people genetically has not still run over Volga river at all. When we draw a line between st. Petersburg and Moscow, one side people is Slavic russian and the other Fin russian ethnically.




    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture

    :


    china bronze:


    aryan sikha:
    The sikha or shikha (Sanskrit: शिखा; IAST: śikhā; "crest"; Hindi चोटी (choTi)) means flame, powerful, ray of light, peak of a mountain. It is a name of Hindu / Indian origin, and is commonly used for females. It also means long tuft, or lock of hair, left on top or on the back of the shaven head of a male Orthodox Hindu.
    Last edited by johen; 28-02-20 at 05:40.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Johen, I suppose Ygorcs has explained very well mt proper thoughts about vague and general similarities between human cultures.
    If I believe Grigoryev (I' m very weak in archeology) Seyma-Turbino would have been a culture (or a metallurgic aspect of culture) passed through South Central Asia, maybe born farther in Southwest, from remote Middle East origin. The later devlopment of this aspect after stage in Altay could have concerned different ethnies and languages, sometimes with intrusion of some male elite (perhaps, some clades of Y-N in future Finno-Ugric lands), I don't know for sure.
    ATW I thank you for the documentation you send us here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Johen, I suppose Ygorcs has explained very well mt proper thoughts about vague and general similarities between human cultures.
    If I believe Grigoryev (I' m very weak in archeology) Seyma-Turbino would have been a culture (or a metallurgic aspect of culture) passed through South Central Asia, maybe born farther in Southwest, from remote Middle East origin. The later devlopment of this aspect after stage in Altay could have concerned different ethnies and languages, sometimes with intrusion of some male elite (perhaps, some clades of Y-N in future Finno-Ugric lands), I don't know for sure.
    ATW I thank you for the documentation you send us here.
    I think grave circle B in Greece has a key to solve, but when to get their aDNA?
    Anyway see the interesting skulls to be related with botai:

    The DNA of two buried people from kurgans #67 and #67a of Aigyrzhal-2 site were revealed in arecently-published article on the genetics of Eneolithic and Bronze Age populations on the territoryof Southern and Central Asia. According to the results, these buried people were genetically linkedto the people of the Botai culture in Eneolithic of Kazakhstan (Narasimhan et al., 2019). But thephysical type of the buried people from Aigyrzhal-2 site was not similar to the physical type of theancient Botai people. This is another mystery that will require further research if it is to be solved.
    "Picture 6. Aigyrzhal-2. The skull from burial mound number 67a.The Early Bronze Age. Photo by Y. Kitov."






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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^

    Same thing here in brand new paper:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...03.25.004606v1

    The two oldest individuals from the Mongolia ‘West’ cluster have very different ancestry: they are from the Shatar Chuluu kurgan site associated with the Afanasievo culture, with one directly dated to 3316-2918 calBCE (we quote a 95% confidence interval here and in what follows whenever we mention a direct date), and are indistinguishable in ancestry from previously published ancient Afanasievo individuals from the Altai region of present-day Russia (…)

    The early Afanasievo individual from Bayankhongor aimag with precise radiocarbon date is of hg. R1b1a1a2a1a-L151, which – if confirmed with BAM inferences – would date the expansion of this lineage back to Late Repin instead of the later West Yamnaya migration, in line with the earlier mean estimates of YTree (compared to YFull). The other individual is of hg. J1, possibly of the same subclade as the Khvalynsk chieftain reported by Anthony (2019).


    Another paper shows the R1b guy, who is not related with afanasievo skulls
    :

    [img]www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/18090913406bf47745e1a5b03e.jpg.thumb.jpg[/img]
    [img]www.ranhaer.org/data/attachment/forum/forumid_97/180909134059b429e3c3e0b7a2.jpg.thumb.jpg[/img]

    So anthropology has a big problem, but genetics is a pure science?

    However, american, russian and east asian anthropologist unanimously said that IA chandman skull clusters with xoungnu skull to be proved by genetics. Their skull type is paleo type with cromagnon, jomon and polynesian. anthropologically their skulls could not be created by bronze genes at all.




    "A striking finding in light of previous archaeological and genetic data is that the male child from Kurgak govi (individual I13957, skeletal code AT_629) has no evidence of Yamnaya-related ancestry despite his association with Afanasievo material culture (for example, he was buried in a barrow in the form of circular platform edged by vertical stone slabs, in stretched position on the back on the bottom of deep rectangular pit and with a typical Afanasievo egg-shaped vessel; his late Afanasievo chronology is confirmed by a direct radiocarbon date of 2858-2505 BCE). This is the first known case of an individual buried with Afanasievo cultural traditions who is not overwhelmingly Yamnaya-related, and he also shows genetic continuity with an individual buried at the same site Kurgak govi 2 in a square barrow (individual I6361, skeletal code AT_635, direct radiocarbon date 2618-2487 BCE). We label this second individuals as having an Ulgii cultural association, although a different archaeological assessment associates this individual to the Afanasievo or Chemurchek cultures, so it is possible that this provides a second example of Afanasievo material culture being adopted by individuals without any Yamnaya ancestry."


    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 18:28.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    However, american, russian and east asian anthropologist unanimously said that IA chandman skull clusters with xoungnu skull to be proved by genetics. Their skull type is paleo type with cromagnon, jomon and polynesian. anthropologically their skulls could not be created by bronze genes at all.
    I think they look like this:


    Kushan ruler:

    Xoungnu:


    Ephthalites (white Hun)




    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/we-drank-s...ame-immortal-/


    maybe connected to china brzone and Qin shihuwang also:




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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    If PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia

    ''The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
    (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae, has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009). Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China 203 (Jia and Betts, 2010). We analyzed two Chemurchek individuals from the southern Altai site of Yagshiin Huduu and one from Khundii Gobi (KUM001) in the northern Altai. Compared to Afanasievo_Mongolia, the Yagshiin Huduu individuals also show a high degree of Western ancestry but are displaced in PCA (Fig. 2), having also a strong genetic affinity with ANE207 related ancient individuals such as AfontovaGora3 (AG3), West_Siberia_N, and Botai (Fig. 208 3a; Fig. S9, S11). We find that these Chemurchek individuals (Chemurchek_Altai) are genetically similar to Dali_EBA (Fig. 3a)''

    2 Z2103 in Chemurchek
    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 20:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Originally Posted by johenIf PIE speaker had an combination of EHG and CHG, would it be possible of the other combiantion of WSHG and CHG to be PIE speaker? It seems to me that eneolithic Dali (WSHG and CHG) is related to Torcharian PIE.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ze-Age-Eurasia



    ''The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
    (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae, has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009). Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China 203 (Jia and Betts, 2010). We analyzed two Chemurchek individuals from the southern Altai site of Yagshiin Huduu and one from Khundii Gobi (KUM001) in the northern Altai. Compared to Afanasievo_Mongolia, the Yagshiin Huduu individuals also show a high degree of Western ancestry but are displaced in PCA (Fig. 2), having also a strong genetic affinity with ANE207 related ancient individuals such as AfontovaGora3 (AG3), West_Siberia_N, and Botai (Fig. 208 3a; Fig. S9, S11). We find that these Chemurchek individuals (Chemurchek_Altai) are genetically similar to Dali_EBA (Fig. 3a)''

    2 R1b in Chemurchek
    we already know that millet was found in stredny stog culture. I think they would be all WSHG-related people's job including language (nostratic?)


    https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Kov..._2011._P._1-58

    yangshao


    Cucuteni. Phase A3.Tell Harsova.(the fertility goddess in Lajja Gauri attitude)



    the other pottery similarities between cucuteni and Yangshao:
    https://www.scribd.com/document/2018...Zhou-dynasties


    Poulnabrone dolmen, the Burren, County Clare, Ireland



    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture


    Dolmen at Ganghwa Island, South Korea



    PIE long braid (= sun's ray) culture


    Last edited by johen; 27-03-20 at 22:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post




    Two awesome maps related with PIE

    Z93 migration thru ISMC



    R1b –L23 ( i.e r1b-z2103 )



    - Archaeologically from mesolithic to eneolithic, south ural had contacted to S-E aral sea area, where cattle and horse bones were buried.
    - yamna-like khvalynsk Q1a who was not welcomed.
    - wagon burial culture of step maykop Q1a in yamna Z2013 pit
    - afanasievo Z2103 AND 3 Q1a
    - sintashta Z2103 and its outlier WSHG Z2103
    - Now Dali-like Z2103 in chemurchek
    - Afanasivo R1b PH310 in shatar chuluu kurgan.

    see Dali and khvalynsk admizture, are they same people?:


    [ R1b-M73 ]
    Last edited by johen; 31-03-20 at 20:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Altai people cannot be explained without Ring. They seem to be "Ring people." Their elites carried daggers as high-rank soldiers carry pistols. The dagger’s head is a Ring. This tradition started in seima turbino and continued in andronovo, karashuk, china bronze, the celts and even avar. Maybe simple mycenaean sword has also ring. This Ring culture seems to originate in lake baikal, which is directly connected to Hongshan burial. This people focuses even in ring of eye, although they have big almond eyes. I think this kind of ring culture cannot be found in any other place except mesoamerican culture. I think their body genes were changed, but they kept their culture. Ancient people's mind was ruled by their culture, not by their genetics.

    Neolithic lake baikal:


    okunevo culture:



    Human sacrifice dagger in shang china:




    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...-dagger-006277

    caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin), china, 2000–1000 bce: compare okunevo one with large lips
    see the ring people's culture in lake baikal and mesoamerica:

    "The 7,000 years old Neolithic grave by lake Baikal might belong to one of the world’s oldest settlements."
    They were buried in supine-flex position like in yamna/afanasievo and american Indian.



    https://siberiantimes.com/other/othe...g-in-a-garden/


    The man's skeleton had a ring made of rare white jade over one eye socket
    https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...thed-near.html
    In Peru

    An octopus frontlet made of gold, chrysocolla and shells dating from A.D. 300-600

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    anthropomorph in 2000 bc sanauli, india:



    [Zeus formular]

    Deus or Ancient Greek Zeus > ancient chinese Tees > modern chinese Di( lord, son of sky or heaven): altai petroglyph

    chinese bronze script character for Tian ​天, meaning "sky":


    Alain Thote, "Chinese coffins from the first millennium B.C. and early images of the afterworld," Res: Anthropology and aesthetics61-62 (Spring-Autumn 2012): 22-40.:

    Altai petroglyph:


    Zeus or not?


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)


    scythian:
    www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20warrior%20skeleton%20in%2 0Cherkasy%20Oblast%20Regional%20Studies%20Museum.j pg
    yamna also:



    https://www.academia.edu/37259536/TH...N_3200_1750_BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post



    How to read this map?

    It seems like this:
    Seima turbino (tin bronze) : petrovka culture (tin bronze) = okunveo (petroglyph: human-carrying cat) : sintashta (chariot)

    Mining tin can be only at altai and east karzak in steppe. Okunevo has sunhead/snake(= thundervolt) and third eye culture.
    Okunevo merged with afanasievo, and late Krotovo (seima turbino) merged with andronovo.

    Following the Gansu corridor of Hg Q trail, we can meet R1a sintashta culture in the tomb of china bronze, where seima turbino/karashuk entered according to archaeology.
    Following the inner asia mountain corridor of Hg R1a trail, we can meet okunvo petroglyph near south asia as K. Zettmar said. That is a relationship of R1a and Q1a

    However, geneticists put an emphasis only upon steppe admixture creating Indo-european culture. I think CHG is nothing, but only ANE created that. The steppe people at that time integrated with only the ANE gene.

    Why?
    B/c Malta artifact (sun and snake) = okunevo petroglyph (sunhead and snake) = zeus/indra sunhead and thundervolt = mesoamerica sunhead and snake or thunderblot at mountain. Yamna has sunhead and animal culture like american indian.

    "the eminent scholar, Miles Poindexter, a former ambassador of the United States to Mexico, in his two-volume 1930s treatise “The Ayar-Incas” called the Maya civilization “unquestionably Hindu.”"
    Last edited by johen; 12-02-21 at 08:46.

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    "The earliest metal spearheads from northern China (Figure 1: 4–5 & 7–10) can be classified into two types. Type I is the Seima-Turbino spearhead, which has a hook and a triple-line decoration near the end of the hook (Figure 1: 4 & 6). Type II is the Chinese imitation of Type I, with a hook and a ring on opposite sides, but lacking the triple-line decoration (Lin 2015; Figure 1: 7, from the Qijia Culture at Shenna)."

    "Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4)."


    "These new observations suggest that the distribution of metal spearheads from the Seima-Turbino Culture to northern China represents the diffusion and spread of the metallurgical technique. From the metallurgical perspective in particular, the bronze casting of spearheads indicates the origin of piece-mould casting and core-casting technology, which influenced the bronze vessel casting method in China. We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How to read this map?

    It seems like this:
    Seima turbino (tin bronze) : petrovka culture (tin bronze) = okunveo (petroglyph: human-carrying cart) : sintashta (chariot)

    Mining tin can be only at altai and east karzak in steppe. Okunevo has sunhead/snake(= thundervolt) and third eye culture.
    Okunevo merged with afanasievo, and late Krotovo (seima turbino) merged with andronovo.

    Following the Gansu corridor of Hg Q trail, we can meet R1a sintashta culture in the tomb of china bronze, where seima turbino/karashuk entered according to archaeology.
    Following the inner asia mountain corridor of Hg R1a trail, we can meet okunvo petroglyph near south asia as K. Zettmar said. That is a relationship of R1a and Q1a

    However, geneticists put an emphasis only upon steppe admixture creating Indo-european culture. I think CHG is nothing, but only ANE created that. The steppe people at that time integrated with only the ANE gene.

    Why?
    B/c Malta artifact (sun and snake) = okunevo petroglyph (sunhead and snake) = zeus/indra sunhead and thundervolt = mesoamerica sunhead and snake or thunderblot at mountain. Yamna has sunhead and animal culture like american indian.

    "the eminent scholar, Miles Poindexter, a former ambassador of the United States to Mexico, in his two-volume 1930s treatise “The Ayar-Incas” called the Maya civilization “unquestionably Hindu.”"
    I don't know whether the following personal opinion is correct, but I think Indo-Uralic theory is plausible. I always said that PIE was created in the triangle zone of Lake baikal, Hotu cave (with baikal pottery/Hg J) and Karelia (with R1a/ mtDNA C/ baikal pottery):

    "Archi said...Nichols and Koivulehto are not authorities. Swadesh WordList has nothing to do with the general vocabulary. It does not establish relatives.

    Indo-Uralic theory is strictly proved. The time of the disintegration of these two languages ​​is the question of relative, on such antiquities, the GLOTOHronology works badly, too few words and too large systematic error, so the decay time is estimated between 10000 and 7000BС with different calculation algorithms. It must be borne in mind that for a long time after PIE penetration to Europe between Europe and Western Siberia continued continuum dialects. I am sure that at this time R1A live there."

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How to read this map?

    It seems like this:
    Seima turbino (tin bronze) : petrovka culture (tin bronze) = okunveo (petroglyph: human-carrying cart) : sintashta (chariot)

    Mining tin can be only at altai and east karzak in steppe. Okunevo has sunhead/snake(= thundervolt) and third eye culture.
    Okunevo merged with afanasievo, and late Krotovo (seima turbino) merged with andronovo.

    Following the Gansu corridor of Hg Q trail, we can meet R1a sintashta culture in the tomb of china bronze, where seima turbino/karashuk entered according to archaeology.
    Following the inner asia mountain corridor of Hg R1a trail, we can meet okunvo petroglyph near south asia as K. Zettmar said. That is a relationship of R1a and Q1a

    However, geneticists put an emphasis only upon steppe admixture creating Indo-european culture. I think CHG is nothing, but only ANE created that. The steppe people at that time integrated with only the ANE gene.

    Why?
    B/c Malta artifact (sun and snake) = okunevo petroglyph (sunhead and snake) = zeus/indra sunhead and thundervolt = mesoamerica sunhead and snake or thunderblot at mountain. Yamna has sunhead and animal culture like american indian.

    "the eminent scholar, Miles Poindexter,a former ambassador of the United States to Mexico, in his two-volume 1930s treatise “The Ayar-Incas” called the Maya civilization “unquestionably Hindu.”
    Here is another one in Tibet:
    https://popular-archaeology.com/arti...f-zhang-zhung/

    "The direct dating of rock art is still not technologically feasible, but based on cross-cultural comparisons, chariot rock art in Upper Tibet is likely to have been made sometime between 1200 and 300 BCE."

    And author tries to connect it to andronovo, but their rock art reminds everyone (like author) of okunevo petroglyph. And also Ring daggers like celtic one were found. Lots of chinese people including scholars thought that their zhou dyanasty originated in this sheep herding tibet people due to last name of Jiang (the highest-ranking nobles in the zhou).
    But I think they were totally different from modern tibet people.

    ___________________________________________

    The author surveying chariot rock art on the Northern Plains (Changthang) of Upper Tibet.
    ____________________________________________

    Highly detailed carving of a chariot in Upper Tibet. Note the charioteer standing in the square car and what appears to be a groom in front of the horses.
    ______________________________________________

    Chariot petroglyph depicted with round car and without draught animals. This chariot is located at a rock art site in the central part of Upper Tibet.

    The following their rock arts is like Okunevo sun god:
    ________________________________________________

    Mascoid carving with arms and legs and a complex array of elements inside the face, northwestern Tibet.
    _______________________________________________

    Mascoid with large eyes, northwestern Tibet.

    See Huo Wei 2014, p. 330 ( fig. 9). This object was discovered in a tomb of the rGya-gling cemetery, Guge, which is dated to the second half of first millennium BCE.
    https://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2016/







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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Here is another one in Tibet:
    https://popular-archaeology.com/arti...f-zhang-zhung/

    "The direct dating of rock art is still not technologically feasible, but based on cross-cultural comparisons, chariot rock art in Upper Tibet is likely to have been made sometime between 1200 and 300 BCE."

    And author tries to connect it to andronovo, but their rock art reminds everyone (like author) of okunevo petroglyph. And also Ring daggers like celtic one were found. Lots of chinese people including scholars thought that their zhou dyanasty originated in this sheep herding tibet people due to last name of Jiang (the highest-ranking nobles in the zhou).
    But I think they were totally different from modern tibet people.

    ___________________________________________

    The author surveying chariot rock art on the Northern Plains (Changthang) of Upper Tibet.
    ____________________________________________

    Highly detailed carving of a chariot in Upper Tibet. Note the charioteer standing in the square car and what appears to be a groom in front of the horses.
    ______________________________________________

    Chariot petroglyph depicted with round car and without draught animals. This chariot is located at a rock art site in the central part of Upper Tibet.

    The following their rock arts is like Okunevo sun god:
    ________________________________________________

    Mascoid carving with arms and legs and a complex array of elements inside the face, northwestern Tibet.
    _______________________________________________

    Mascoid with large eyes, northwestern Tibet.

    See Huo Wei 2014, p. 330 ( fig. 9). This object was discovered in a tomb of the rGya-gling cemetery, Guge, which is dated to the second half of first millennium BCE.
    https://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2016/


    .







    A) Barrenhas or Vilela Seca hoard (according to Villas-Bôas 1948, Lám. 2); B) Moura da Serra hoard (according to Coffyn 1985, planche XLIII: 1-3); C) Coles de Samuel hoard (according to Bottaini et al. 2016: 346); D) Cabeço de Maria Candal hoard (according to Vilaça et al. 2012: 305); E) Solveira hoard (Photo credit: MDDS, Braga).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...ig41_330778975


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    see the ring people's culture in lake baikal and mesoamerica:

    "The 7,000 years old Neolithic grave by lake Baikal might belong to one of the world’s oldest settlements."
    They were buried in supine-flex position like in yamna/afanasievo and american Indian.



    https://siberiantimes.com/other/othe...g-in-a-garden/


    The man's skeleton had a ring made of rare white jade over one eye socket
    https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...thed-near.html
    In Peru

    An octopus frontlet made of gold, chrysocolla and shells dating from A.D. 300-600
    Ring = circle = sky, heaven, sun = hindu mandala ( rig veda is mandala books)

    Neolithic baikal sun/sky(ring) culture migrated to neolithic Hongshan, bronze china.

    “On the territory of the Baikal region (Angara, Upper Lena, Baikal, Vitim), the late Mesolithic burial complexes were identified - related to the Khinsky and Schukin burial traditions; Early Neolithic - the Chinese tradition of burials; Late Neolithic — Isakovskaya, Serovskaya, Late-Serovskaya for Priolkhonya, “burial traditions” for the Upper Lena “archaic”.



    Hongshan platform at Niuheliang (Left) and central burial with carved jades from another platform (Right).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig8_7302635

    sunshine in eye ring:
    https://chinahongshanculture.com/wp-...tifact-158.jpg


    " Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4)."



    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264


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    ^
    How about Circle and square in PIE ?

    yamna: see the sky god on wheel cart:



    "Mycenaean civilization (2600-1100 BCE)": Circle B and square cist
    https://sjcnygreece2018amarficollado.wordpress.com/2018/06/08/fourth-day-mycenaean-burial-customs/

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    ^
    looks like all ANE people had same philosophy of circle sky and square earth:

    afanasievo:

    okunevo:
    Photo courtesy of expedition members



    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/



    Section and plan of the barrow from the cemetery of Kamyshevkha near Bakhmut, lower Donets basin.
    https://www.donsmaps.com/rossosh.html

    Maya also:

    https://www.mayaarchaeologist.co.uk/school-resources/maya-world/maya-gods-and-goddesses/

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png
    - number 3 artifact in Khvalynsk tomb below looks similar to seima turbino one above.
    - according to IBD test, Khvalynsk has no relationship with yamna







    https://indo-european.eu/2021/03/ibd...d-populations/

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    - number 3 artifact in Khvalynsk tomb below looks similar to seima turbino one above.
    - according to IBD test, Khvalynsk has no relationship with yamna







    https://indo-european.eu/2021/03/ibd...d-populations/
    Yellow squares indicate shared IBD segments, no? If so then Khvalynsk ll and Ekanterinovka share with Yamnaya Ekanterinovka I0231 burial 2910-2875 BCE, and Yamnaya Derivka, Stredny Stog, no?
    H. event.


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