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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yellow squares indicate shared IBD segments, no? If so then Khvalynsk ll and Ekanterinovka share with Yamnaya Ekanterinovka I0231 burial 2910-2875 BCE, and Yamnaya Derivka, Stredny Stog, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Anthony's NEW video talking about Yamnaya culture is especially pathetic. They have over 300 samples from the steppes, and they have decided that the Yamnaya culture is descended from Sredni Stog. However, they still don't know what the origin of chg-iran related ancestry is, and THEY STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE MALE UNIPARENTAL MARKERS OF SS CULTURE ARE (CURIOUSLY ALL THE NEW SAMPLES FROM THAT CULTURE ARE FEMALE- BAD LUCK???????)
    According to Anthony, they tried to connect SS to yamna. Moreover they did not find the origin of Yamna ydna and CHG. I think even EHG has nothing to do with Yamna.
    Modern indo-european scholars denied Gimbutas claim that SS culture with millet seeds originated from East, probably far east lake baikal. I think historical fact including migration could not be changed only in bronze age. I already posted evidence that yamna culture has sky-god ANE culture from altai and circle-sky/square-earth ANE culture from probably lake baikal.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Anthony thought R1a would be a commoner during yamna age, now Kristian claim the Maykob had early PIE.
    I think they had some PIE b/c they have CHG. Their impacts to yamna seems to be related with just materials. Yamna's main culture of sun and animal is closely related with west siberia, lake baikal by EHG.
    I want scholars to focus more upon east Ural to be connected to south-east aral sea from mesolithic to eneolithic.
    I think EHG R1a with mtdna c and pottery of lake baikal would meet CHG J over there to go their journey to Karelia.
    And yamna ancestor would pick up the CHG over there, where cattle and horse bones were buired. That is why I think sitashta culture popped up over there. Moreover mining at western siberia started from neolithic age.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ok, but I have some different opinion:
    Before flexed burial people like Khvalynsk, stredney stog, and yamna appeared in east europe, supine burial people dominated. However, I remembered that Ian M mentioned on 2018 that EHG was diluted by CHG and later farmer's genes in east europe. I think ancient burial type is their Origin Identity. Anatolia farmer did not change their burial type in europe.

    Moreover yamna has mtDNA C. Even if Russian scholar connected yamna C to EHG, the above IBD test shows that even Khvalynsk has no relationship with yamna. I just think a historical fact has not changed that every time different people entered east europe from steppe but with similar culture.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...015#post621015

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    According to Anthony, they tried to connect SS to yamna. Moreover they did not find the origin of Yamna ydna and CHG. I think even EHG has nothing to do with Yamna.
    Modern indo-european scholars denied Gimbutas claim that SS culture with millet seeds originated from East, probably far east lake baikal. I think historical fact including migration could not be changed only in bronze age. I already posted evidence that yamna culture has sky-god ANE culture from altai and circle-sky/square-earth ANE culture from probably lake baikal.




    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...015#post621015
    https://amtdb.org/records/I5884 Ukraine_ 2890-2696 calBCE (4195±20 BP, PSUAMS-2828) R1b-CTS1078
    https://amtdb.org/records/I0443 R1b1a1a2a R1b-L23

  3. #53
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    ^ very tough, but it seems to me that they are compared to cimmerian and scythian or scythian and Hun (Attila was called to be " scythian lord). SS people was buried in supine & flexed position at flat grave, but yamna in the same position at mound. However the most important thing is SS people got millet sample originating in northern china. And then chinese neolithic culture seems to get cucuteni culture including yin-yang symbol:

    https://historum.com/proxy.php?image...d6debdf070b39c

    https://historum.com/proxy.php?image...4583008b9f8a46


    - see cucuteni type pottery and flexed position (west burial type )


    "Burial site reconstruction, Bianjiagou in Liaoning, Yangshao culture - Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, Stockholm"

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think this sarmatian is a sky god. His daggers seems to originate in karasuk:

    Picture 2: Catacombs and tomb complex from Porogi


    and celtic god?
    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)
    Triskelion





    sarmatian roundel and scythian torc:




    One of the most intriguing questions researchers hope to answer is whether Celtic art had links into the wider Eurasian world. Until now, this material has mainly been analysed in terms of its European stylistic development, but the research team is now broadening its scope to look at the relationship between Celtic art and Iron Age art in the Eurasian steppe. They will be looking at a group of artefacts in excavations and museum collections that are traditionally described as ‘Celtic’ because of their use of spirals, circles, interlaced designs, or swirling representations of plants or animals.
    One main line of enquiry is the relationship between the central European Celts and their nomadic Eurasian neighbours (often referred to as Scythians or Sarmatians), who inhabited the European end of a grassland (steppe) corridor that stretched east towards Central Asia and China. Longstanding routes of communication across these semi-deserts and steppes, which later formed part of the Silk Road, are known to have played a significant role in earlier artistic and cultural exchanges between East and West.


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    seima turbino shaman:




    "Shijiahe Culture (2500-2200 BC), 10.3cm tall in ancient china
    It is so far the only piece of its kind in the world. None of the mystical figures had legs except for this one. Wearing a flat-topped hat and two earrings, with a big nose and hands crossed at the chest, the solemn-looking figure is believed to be a wizard conducting a religious rite."

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "The 7,000 years old Neolithic grave by lake Baikal might belong to one of the world’s oldest settlements."
    They were buried in supine-flex position like in yamna/afanasievo and american Indian.




    afanasievo family burial culture:
    Figure 26. Materials of the Afanasevo type. Top: burial types (after Larin 2005); bottom left: copper products (after Kovaleva et al. 2010, Grushin et al. 2010); bottom right: pottery (after Polyakov 2010, Kovalev, Erdenebaatar 2010). From Morgunova (2014)

    Andronovo family:

    Archeologists are struggling for explanations and believe DNA tests will provide the answers to these remarkable burials. Pictures: Vyacheslav Molodin, Institute of Archeology and Ethnography of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences


    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...or-3500-years/




  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    sarmatian sky-god and RING pommel dagger


    1. ring is a circle (sky/sun/heaven). And sarmatian sitting position:



    [the cauldron at Kal'mius (after SHTERN 1911). 2: depiction on the collar/diadem in barrow grave 10 at Kobyakovo (after MORDVINTSEVA 2003).]

    2. They were separated thousands and thousands ago, however:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec_civilization

    3. south asian's yoga sitting:



    4. Hongshan near manchu:
    https://taiwan-reports.com/wp-conten...%E5%9C%969.jpg

    https://taiwan-reports.com/archives/423723













  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Altai people cannot be explained without Ring circle (sun/sky).
    Neolithic lake baikal:


    okunevo culture:



    Human sacrifice dagger in shang china:




    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...-dagger-006277

    caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin), china, 2000–1000 bce: compare okunevo one with large lips
    Mayan ancestors were split from them thousands and thousands years ago, but they kept their circle (ring) culture. I think it is a their own unique culture which couldn't be imitated by any other people. Especially okunevo and mayan people have a third eye culture, which hindu people has now.

    mayan rain god:







  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    see the below triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture:
    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg

    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/a-i...xiajiadian.htm

    celtic:


    Interlaced triquetra which is a trefoil knot





  10. #60
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    Seima turbino has lead ring culture: sun = circle(vedic mandala) = ring (so sunhead)

    1. Xiaohe : caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin)
    etery
    https://himushi.com/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%...2%93%E5%9C%B0/

    2. okunevo culture:


    mayan rain god:




    4. Hongshan xinglongwa culture (興隆洼文化) (6200–5400 bc)




    http://www.gg-art.com/article/index/read/aid/28222

    another ring eyes in
    xinglongwa culture :
    https://wemp.app/posts/989fdaf0-6522-4b8c-9884-c5b90bd09676
    Last edited by johen; 22-08-21 at 08:17.

  11. #61
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    seima turbino's effects on china bronze age, which reminds me of Mongol:


    figure 15: bronzeseima-turbino-style artifacts and bronze and jade artifacts from the yin ruins, anyang city.
    https://www.academia.edu/45055541/Se...roto_Silk_Road

    seima hair style:
    http://www.ra.iaran.ru/wp-content/up...tun-1-2014.jpg

    hairstyle and kneeling culture in china bronze:


    https://daydaynews.cc/en/history/76772.html

    OLMEC kneeling:






  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ring = circle = sky, heaven, sun = hindu mandala ( rig veda is mandala books)

    Neolithic baikal sun/sky(ring) culture migrated to neolithic Hongshan, bronze china.

    “On the territory of the Baikal region (Angara, Upper Lena, Baikal, Vitim), the late Mesolithic burial complexes were identified - related to the Khinsky and Schukin burial traditions; Early Neolithic - the Chinese tradition of burials; Late Neolithic — Isakovskaya, Serovskaya, Late-Serovskaya for Priolkhonya, “burial traditions” for the Upper Lena “archaic”.



    Hongshan platform at Niuheliang (Left) and central burial with carved jades from another platform (Right).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig8_7302635

    sunshine in eye ring:
    https://chinahongshanculture.com/wp-...tifact-158.jpg


    " Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4)."



    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264

    " East Asia, geographically extending to the Pamir Plateau in the west, to the Himalayan Mountains in the southwest, to Lake Baikal in the north and to the South China Sea in the south, harbors a variety of people, cultures, and languages. To reconstruct the natural history of East Asians is a mission of multiple disciplines, including genetics, archaeology, linguistics, and ethnology. Geneticists confirm the recent African origin of modern East Asians. Anatomically modern humans arose in Africa and immigrated into East Asia via a southern route approximately 50,000 years ago. Following the end of the Last Glacial Maximum approximately 12,000 years ago, rice and millet were domesticated in the south and north of East Asia, respectively, which allowed human populations to expand and linguistic families and ethnic groups to develop. These Neolithic populations produced a strong relation between the present genetic structures and linguistic families. The expansion of the Hongshan people from northeastern China relocated most of the ethnic populations on a large scale approximately 5300 years ago. Most of the ethnic groups migrated to remote regions, producing genetic structure differences between the edge and center of East Asia. In central China, pronounced population admixture occurred and accelerated over time, which subsequently formed the Han Chinese population and eventually the Chinese civilization. Population migration between the north and the south throughout history has left a smooth gradient in north–south changes in genetic structure. Observation of the process of shaping the genetic structure of East Asians may help in understanding the global natural history of modern humans"





    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Y_chromosome


    "Some Chinese archaeologists such as Guo Da-shun see the Hongshan culture as an important stage of early Chinese civilization.[13][14] Whatever the linguistic affinity of the ancient denizens, Hongshan culture is believed to have exerted an influence on the development of early Chinese civilization.[15] The culture also have contributed to the development of settlements in ancient Korea.[16]"

    - anthropology analysis is not different :
    Craniometrics Reveal “Two Layers” of Prehistoric Human Dispersal in Eastern Eurasia


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-35426-z


  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    see the below triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture:
    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg

    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/a-i...xiajiadian.htm



    china bronze around 1,100bc:
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/05/18/...-china-to-life




    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png

    Mycenaean has also 6 celtic simbols in the middle of big brooch:

    Detailed goldwork grave 4 in Grave Circle A at Mycenae.
    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/mycenae.html.

    Seima turbino has snake pattern, celtic symbol above and same form of brooch. Wherever the seima turbino goes, there is celtic mark:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY

    *words to search: "Borodino, Seima and their Contemporaries: Key Sites for the Bronze Age Chronology of Eastern Europe"





  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    mythological creature in china bronze, Taotie:
    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/specia...bce_bronze.htm
    https://www.squinchmag.com/gallery-5...ese-bronze-age

    Mayan deity Itzamna:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MA_D283_The_serpent-bird_from_a_carved_wooden_panel_at_Tikal.jpg


  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Seima turbino has lead ring culture: sun = circle(vedic mandala) = ring (so sunhead)1. Xiaohe : caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin)eteryhttps://himushi.com/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%...2%93%E5%9C%B0/2. okunevo culture:mayan rain god:4. Hongshan xinglongwa culture (興隆洼文化) (6200–5400 bc)http://www.gg-art.com/article/index/read/aid/28222another ring eyes in xinglongwa culture :https://wemp.app/posts/989fdaf0-6522-4b8c-9884-c5b90bd09676
    "The population prehistory of Xinjiang has been a hot topic among geneticists, linguists, and archaeologists. Current ancient DNA studies in Xinjiang exclusively suggest an admixture model for the populations in Xinjiang since the early Bronze Age. However, almost all of these studies focused on the northern and eastern parts of Xinjiang; the prehistoric demographic processes that occurred in western Xinjiang have been seldomly reported. By analyzing complete mitochondrial sequences from the Xiabandi (XBD) cemetery (3,500–3,300 BP), the up-to-date earliest cemetery excavated in western Xinjiang, we show that all the XBD mitochondrial sequences fall within two different West Eurasian mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) pools, indicating that the migrants into western Xinjiang from west Eurasians were a consequence of the early expansion of the middle and late Bronze Age steppe pastoralists (Steppe_MLBA), admixed with the indigenous populations from Central Asia. Our study provides genetic links for an early existence of the Indo-Iranian language in southwestern Xinjiang and suggests that the existence of Andronovo culture in western Xinjiang involved not only the dispersal of ideas but also population movement."

    "Andronovo has been regarded as one of the most powerful cultures in Central Asia, which reflected frequent cultural interflow, people migration, and technique diffusion on the Bronze Age Eurasian steppes. In the past decade, many new discoveries in Xinjiang, such as Adunqiaolu and Jartai, have drawn broad attention to the communication of the Andronovo culture in the central Tianshan Mountains. However, systematic study is still insufficient on the communication and influence of the Andronovo culture or the “Andronovo phenomenon” along the Tianshan Mountains. Based on our comprehensive investigation of tomb structure, funeral rituals and assemblages, this article reclassifies relevant Andronovo remains in Xinjiang into five categories. Two categories represented by the Xiabandi cemetery and the Adunqiaolu show clear resemblance to those at Semirech’ye in all aspects, which indicated people in these regions may have maintained close and consistent interaction. Other three categories in the Kuokesuxi and Tangbalesayi cemetery have different tomb structures and funeral rituals from those typical discoveries of the Andronovo cultures in Central Asia in spite of the their similarity in pottery and bronze ornaments, which can be considered as the result of product exchange or technical communication, rather than population migration. New discovery of the Baigetuobie cemetery with evidence of tomb structure, dating, and human genetic features in the Balikun grassland suggested that there might be a small group of people, probably came from the central Tianshan Mountains or Semirech’ye or further west, had migrated to the Eastern Tianshan Mountains about 1600 BC, which was likely facilitated by the relatively warm and humid environment. They had preserved their traditional tomb architecture and were not active in cultural interaction and population fusion with people of Hami Oasis in the south. Due to some reason unknown, people of Baigetuobie had faded away from Balikun grassland after a short time."

    "Bronze Age social and cultural interconnections across the Eurasian steppe are the subject of much current debate. A particularly significant place is occupied by the Andronovo Culture or family of cultures. Important new data document the most easterly extension of Eurasian Bronze Age sites of Andronovo affinity into western China. Findings from the site of Adunqiaolu in Xinjiang and a new series of radiocarbon dates challenge existing models of eastward cultural dispersion, and demonstrate the need to reconsider the older chronologies and migration theories. The site is well preserved and offers robust potential for deeper study of the Andronovo culture complex, particularly in the eastern mountain regions"
    Last edited by johen; Today at 05:45.

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