Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 75 of 75

Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

  1. #51
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yellow squares indicate shared IBD segments, no? If so then Khvalynsk ll and Ekanterinovka share with Yamnaya Ekanterinovka I0231 burial 2910-2875 BCE, and Yamnaya Derivka, Stredny Stog, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaska View Post
    Anthony's NEW video talking about Yamnaya culture is especially pathetic. They have over 300 samples from the steppes, and they have decided that the Yamnaya culture is descended from Sredni Stog. However, they still don't know what the origin of chg-iran related ancestry is, and THEY STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE MALE UNIPARENTAL MARKERS OF SS CULTURE ARE (CURIOUSLY ALL THE NEW SAMPLES FROM THAT CULTURE ARE FEMALE- BAD LUCK???????)
    According to Anthony, they tried to connect SS to yamna. Moreover they did not find the origin of Yamna ydna and CHG. I think even EHG has nothing to do with Yamna.
    Modern indo-european scholars denied Gimbutas claim that SS culture with millet seeds originated from East, probably far east lake baikal. I think historical fact including migration could not be changed only in bronze age. I already posted evidence that yamna culture has sky-god ANE culture from altai and circle-sky/square-earth ANE culture from probably lake baikal.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Anthony thought R1a would be a commoner during yamna age, now Kristian claim the Maykob had early PIE.
    I think they had some PIE b/c they have CHG. Their impacts to yamna seems to be related with just materials. Yamna's main culture of sun and animal is closely related with west siberia, lake baikal by EHG.
    I want scholars to focus more upon east Ural to be connected to south-east aral sea from mesolithic to eneolithic.
    I think EHG R1a with mtdna c and pottery of lake baikal would meet CHG J over there to go their journey to Karelia.
    And yamna ancestor would pick up the CHG over there, where cattle and horse bones were buired. That is why I think sitashta culture popped up over there. Moreover mining at western siberia started from neolithic age.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ok, but I have some different opinion:
    Before flexed burial people like Khvalynsk, stredney stog, and yamna appeared in east europe, supine burial people dominated. However, I remembered that Ian M mentioned on 2018 that EHG was diluted by CHG and later farmer's genes in east europe. I think ancient burial type is their Origin Identity. Anatolia farmer did not change their burial type in europe.

    Moreover yamna has mtDNA C. Even if Russian scholar connected yamna C to EHG, the above IBD test shows that even Khvalynsk has no relationship with yamna. I just think a historical fact has not changed that every time different people entered east europe from steppe but with similar culture.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...015#post621015

  2. #52
    Baron
    Join Date
    10-06-12
    Posts
    486

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY593
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2

    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    According to Anthony, they tried to connect SS to yamna. Moreover they did not find the origin of Yamna ydna and CHG. I think even EHG has nothing to do with Yamna.
    Modern indo-european scholars denied Gimbutas claim that SS culture with millet seeds originated from East, probably far east lake baikal. I think historical fact including migration could not be changed only in bronze age. I already posted evidence that yamna culture has sky-god ANE culture from altai and circle-sky/square-earth ANE culture from probably lake baikal.




    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...015#post621015
    https://amtdb.org/records/I5884 Ukraine_ 2890-2696 calBCE (4195±20 BP, PSUAMS-2828) R1b-CTS1078
    https://amtdb.org/records/I0443 R1b1a1a2a R1b-L23

  3. #53
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    ^ very tough, but it seems to me that they are compared to cimmerian and scythian or scythian and Hun (Attila was called to be " scythian lord). SS people was buried in supine & flexed position at flat grave, but yamna in the same position at mound. However the most important thing is SS people got millet sample originating in northern china. And then chinese neolithic culture seems to get cucuteni culture including yin-yang symbol:

    https://historum.com/proxy.php?image...d6debdf070b39c

    https://historum.com/proxy.php?image...4583008b9f8a46


    - see cucuteni type pottery and flexed position (west burial type )


    "Burial site reconstruction, Bianjiagou in Liaoning, Yangshao culture - Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities, Stockholm"

  4. #54
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I think this sarmatian is a sky god. His daggers seems to originate in karasuk:

    Picture 2: Catacombs and tomb complex from Porogi


    and celtic god?
    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)
    Triskelion





    sarmatian roundel and scythian torc:




    One of the most intriguing questions researchers hope to answer is whether Celtic art had links into the wider Eurasian world. Until now, this material has mainly been analysed in terms of its European stylistic development, but the research team is now broadening its scope to look at the relationship between Celtic art and Iron Age art in the Eurasian steppe. They will be looking at a group of artefacts in excavations and museum collections that are traditionally described as ‘Celtic’ because of their use of spirals, circles, interlaced designs, or swirling representations of plants or animals.
    One main line of enquiry is the relationship between the central European Celts and their nomadic Eurasian neighbours (often referred to as Scythians or Sarmatians), who inhabited the European end of a grassland (steppe) corridor that stretched east towards Central Asia and China. Longstanding routes of communication across these semi-deserts and steppes, which later formed part of the Silk Road, are known to have played a significant role in earlier artistic and cultural exchanges between East and West.


  5. #55
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    seima turbino shaman:




    "Shijiahe Culture (2500-2200 BC), 10.3cm tall in ancient china
    It is so far the only piece of its kind in the world. None of the mystical figures had legs except for this one. Wearing a flat-topped hat and two earrings, with a big nose and hands crossed at the chest, the solemn-looking figure is believed to be a wizard conducting a religious rite."

  6. #56
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "The 7,000 years old Neolithic grave by lake Baikal might belong to one of the world’s oldest settlements."
    They were buried in supine-flex position like in yamna/afanasievo and american Indian.




    afanasievo family burial culture:
    Figure 26. Materials of the Afanasevo type. Top: burial types (after Larin 2005); bottom left: copper products (after Kovaleva et al. 2010, Grushin et al. 2010); bottom right: pottery (after Polyakov 2010, Kovalev, Erdenebaatar 2010). From Morgunova (2014)

    Andronovo family:

    Archeologists are struggling for explanations and believe DNA tests will provide the answers to these remarkable burials. Pictures: Vyacheslav Molodin, Institute of Archeology and Ethnography of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences


    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...or-3500-years/




  7. #57
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    sarmatian sky-god and RING pommel dagger


    1. ring is a circle (sky/sun/heaven). And sarmatian sitting position:



    [the cauldron at Kal'mius (after SHTERN 1911). 2: depiction on the collar/diadem in barrow grave 10 at Kobyakovo (after MORDVINTSEVA 2003).]

    2. They were separated thousands and thousands ago, however:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec_civilization

    3. south asian's yoga sitting:



    4. Hongshan near manchu:
    https://taiwan-reports.com/wp-conten...%E5%9C%969.jpg

    https://taiwan-reports.com/archives/423723













  8. #58
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Altai people cannot be explained without Ring circle (sun/sky).
    Neolithic lake baikal:


    okunevo culture:



    Human sacrifice dagger in shang china:




    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...-dagger-006277

    caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin), china, 2000–1000 bce: compare okunevo one with large lips
    Mayan ancestors were split from them thousands and thousands years ago, but they kept their circle (ring) culture. I think it is a their own unique culture which couldn't be imitated by any other people. Especially okunevo and mayan people have a third eye culture, which hindu people has now.

    mayan rain god:







  9. #59
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    see the below triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture:
    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg

    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/a-i...xiajiadian.htm

    celtic:


    Interlaced triquetra which is a trefoil knot





  10. #60
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Seima turbino has lead ring culture: sun = circle(vedic mandala) = ring (so sunhead)

    1. Xiaohe : caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin)
    etery
    https://himushi.com/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%...2%93%E5%9C%B0/

    2. okunevo culture:


    mayan rain god:




    4. Hongshan xinglongwa culture (興隆洼文化) (6200–5400 bc)




    http://www.gg-art.com/article/index/read/aid/28222

    another ring eyes in
    xinglongwa culture :
    https://wemp.app/posts/989fdaf0-6522-4b8c-9884-c5b90bd09676
    Last edited by johen; 22-08-21 at 08:17.

  11. #61
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    seima turbino's effects on china bronze age, which reminds me of Mongol:


    figure 15: bronzeseima-turbino-style artifacts and bronze and jade artifacts from the yin ruins, anyang city.
    https://www.academia.edu/45055541/Se...roto_Silk_Road

    seima hair style:
    http://www.ra.iaran.ru/wp-content/up...tun-1-2014.jpg

    hairstyle and kneeling culture in china bronze:


    https://daydaynews.cc/en/history/76772.html

    OLMEC kneeling:






  12. #62
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ring = circle = sky, heaven, sun = hindu mandala ( rig veda is mandala books)

    Neolithic baikal sun/sky(ring) culture migrated to neolithic Hongshan, bronze china.

    “On the territory of the Baikal region (Angara, Upper Lena, Baikal, Vitim), the late Mesolithic burial complexes were identified - related to the Khinsky and Schukin burial traditions; Early Neolithic - the Chinese tradition of burials; Late Neolithic — Isakovskaya, Serovskaya, Late-Serovskaya for Priolkhonya, “burial traditions” for the Upper Lena “archaic”.



    Hongshan platform at Niuheliang (Left) and central burial with carved jades from another platform (Right).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig8_7302635

    sunshine in eye ring:
    https://chinahongshanculture.com/wp-...tifact-158.jpg


    " Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4)."



    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264

    " East Asia, geographically extending to the Pamir Plateau in the west, to the Himalayan Mountains in the southwest, to Lake Baikal in the north and to the South China Sea in the south, harbors a variety of people, cultures, and languages. To reconstruct the natural history of East Asians is a mission of multiple disciplines, including genetics, archaeology, linguistics, and ethnology. Geneticists confirm the recent African origin of modern East Asians. Anatomically modern humans arose in Africa and immigrated into East Asia via a southern route approximately 50,000 years ago. Following the end of the Last Glacial Maximum approximately 12,000 years ago, rice and millet were domesticated in the south and north of East Asia, respectively, which allowed human populations to expand and linguistic families and ethnic groups to develop. These Neolithic populations produced a strong relation between the present genetic structures and linguistic families. The expansion of the Hongshan people from northeastern China relocated most of the ethnic populations on a large scale approximately 5300 years ago. Most of the ethnic groups migrated to remote regions, producing genetic structure differences between the edge and center of East Asia. In central China, pronounced population admixture occurred and accelerated over time, which subsequently formed the Han Chinese population and eventually the Chinese civilization. Population migration between the north and the south throughout history has left a smooth gradient in north–south changes in genetic structure. Observation of the process of shaping the genetic structure of East Asians may help in understanding the global natural history of modern humans"





    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Y_chromosome


    "Some Chinese archaeologists such as Guo Da-shun see the Hongshan culture as an important stage of early Chinese civilization.[13][14] Whatever the linguistic affinity of the ancient denizens, Hongshan culture is believed to have exerted an influence on the development of early Chinese civilization.[15] The culture also have contributed to the development of settlements in ancient Korea.[16]"

    - anthropology analysis is not different :
    Craniometrics Reveal “Two Layers” of Prehistoric Human Dispersal in Eastern Eurasia


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-35426-z


  13. #63
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    see the below triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture:
    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg

    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/a-i...xiajiadian.htm



    china bronze around 1,100bc:
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/05/18/...-china-to-life




    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png

    Mycenaean has also 6 celtic simbols in the middle of big brooch:

    Detailed goldwork grave 4 in Grave Circle A at Mycenae.
    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/mycenae.html.

    Seima turbino has snake pattern, celtic symbol above and same form of brooch. Wherever the seima turbino goes, there is celtic mark:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY

    *words to search: "Borodino, Seima and their Contemporaries: Key Sites for the Bronze Age Chronology of Eastern Europe"





  14. #64
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."


    mythological creature in china bronze, Taotie:
    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/specia...bce_bronze.htm
    https://www.squinchmag.com/gallery-5...ese-bronze-age

    Mayan deity Itzamna:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MA_D283_The_serpent-bird_from_a_carved_wooden_panel_at_Tikal.jpg


  15. #65
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Seima turbino has lead ring culture: sun = circle(vedic mandala) = ring (so sunhead)1. Xiaohe : caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin)eteryhttps://himushi.com/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%...2%93%E5%9C%B0/2. okunevo culture:mayan rain god:4. Hongshan xinglongwa culture (興隆洼文化) (6200–5400 bc)http://www.gg-art.com/article/index/read/aid/28222another ring eyes in xinglongwa culture :https://wemp.app/posts/989fdaf0-6522-4b8c-9884-c5b90bd09676
    "The population prehistory of Xinjiang has been a hot topic among geneticists, linguists, and archaeologists. Current ancient DNA studies in Xinjiang exclusively suggest an admixture model for the populations in Xinjiang since the early Bronze Age. However, almost all of these studies focused on the northern and eastern parts of Xinjiang; the prehistoric demographic processes that occurred in western Xinjiang have been seldomly reported. By analyzing complete mitochondrial sequences from the Xiabandi (XBD) cemetery (3,500–3,300 BP), the up-to-date earliest cemetery excavated in western Xinjiang, we show that all the XBD mitochondrial sequences fall within two different West Eurasian mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) pools, indicating that the migrants into western Xinjiang from west Eurasians were a consequence of the early expansion of the middle and late Bronze Age steppe pastoralists (Steppe_MLBA), admixed with the indigenous populations from Central Asia. Our study provides genetic links for an early existence of the Indo-Iranian language in southwestern Xinjiang and suggests that the existence of Andronovo culture in western Xinjiang involved not only the dispersal of ideas but also population movement."

    "Andronovo has been regarded as one of the most powerful cultures in Central Asia, which reflected frequent cultural interflow, people migration, and technique diffusion on the Bronze Age Eurasian steppes. In the past decade, many new discoveries in Xinjiang, such as Adunqiaolu and Jartai, have drawn broad attention to the communication of the Andronovo culture in the central Tianshan Mountains. However, systematic study is still insufficient on the communication and influence of the Andronovo culture or the “Andronovo phenomenon” along the Tianshan Mountains. Based on our comprehensive investigation of tomb structure, funeral rituals and assemblages, this article reclassifies relevant Andronovo remains in Xinjiang into five categories. Two categories represented by the Xiabandi cemetery and the Adunqiaolu show clear resemblance to those at Semirech’ye in all aspects, which indicated people in these regions may have maintained close and consistent interaction. Other three categories in the Kuokesuxi and Tangbalesayi cemetery have different tomb structures and funeral rituals from those typical discoveries of the Andronovo cultures in Central Asia in spite of the their similarity in pottery and bronze ornaments, which can be considered as the result of product exchange or technical communication, rather than population migration. New discovery of the Baigetuobie cemetery with evidence of tomb structure, dating, and human genetic features in the Balikun grassland suggested that there might be a small group of people, probably came from the central Tianshan Mountains or Semirech’ye or further west, had migrated to the Eastern Tianshan Mountains about 1600 BC, which was likely facilitated by the relatively warm and humid environment. They had preserved their traditional tomb architecture and were not active in cultural interaction and population fusion with people of Hami Oasis in the south. Due to some reason unknown, people of Baigetuobie had faded away from Balikun grassland after a short time."

    "Bronze Age social and cultural interconnections across the Eurasian steppe are the subject of much current debate. A particularly significant place is occupied by the Andronovo Culture or family of cultures. Important new data document the most easterly extension of Eurasian Bronze Age sites of Andronovo affinity into western China. Findings from the site of Adunqiaolu in Xinjiang and a new series of radiocarbon dates challenge existing models of eastward cultural dispersion, and demonstrate the need to reconsider the older chronologies and migration theories. The site is well preserved and offers robust potential for deeper study of the Andronovo culture complex, particularly in the eastern mountain regions"
    Last edited by johen; 24-09-21 at 05:45.

  16. #66
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    " East Asia, geographically extending to the Pamir Plateau in the west, to the Himalayan Mountains in the southwest, to Lake Baikal in the north and to the South China Sea in the south, harbors a variety of people, cultures, and languages. To reconstruct the natural history of East Asians is a mission of multiple disciplines, including genetics, archaeology, linguistics, and ethnology. Geneticists confirm the recent African origin of modern East Asians. Anatomically modern humans arose in Africa and immigrated into East Asia via a southern route approximately 50,000 years ago. Following the end of the Last Glacial Maximum approximately 12,000 years ago, rice and millet were domesticated in the south and north of East Asia, respectively, which allowed human populations to expand and linguistic families and ethnic groups to develop. These Neolithic populations produced a strong relation between the present genetic structures and linguistic families. The expansion of the Hongshan people from northeastern China relocated most of the ethnic populations on a large scale approximately 5300 years ago. Most of the ethnic groups migrated to remote regions, producing genetic structure differences between the edge and center of East Asia. In central China, pronounced population admixture occurred and accelerated over time, which subsequently formed the Han Chinese population and eventually the Chinese civilization. Population migration between the north and the south throughout history has left a smooth gradient in north–south changes in genetic structure. Observation of the process of shaping the genetic structure of East Asians may help in understanding the global natural history of modern humans"

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Y_chromosome

    "Some Chinese archaeologists such as Guo Da-shun see the Hongshan culture as an important stage of early Chinese civilization.[13][14] Whatever the linguistic affinity of the ancient denizens, Hongshan culture is believed to have exerted an influence on the development of early Chinese civilization.[15] "
    How about Russian linguist Sergei Starostin's opinion that Yangsho people spoke altaic?

    "Sergei discovered that OCH have an interesting stratum of Altaic borrowings which share three common features: "1. The Old Chinese words are usually attested at least starting with Early Zhou (only a few of them are attested later than 6th century B.C.). 2. For none of these words have any Sino-Tibetan parallels been proposed. 3. On the Altaic side, the words are well represented, particularly, in the east (Korean, Japanese and Tungus-Manchu)"[9]. Discussing the impact of this discovery, Sergei mentioned to me that the Neolithic Yangshao culture of the Huang He valley can be associated with those Altaic speakers. The contacts (not peaceful) began when the speakers of OCH reached the Huang He valley and met the local Altaic population."

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    N seems to be predominant until 4,000bp. As I posted above, authors focus upon Hongshan jade culture and O2a-M324.



    So I think modern northeast asians like manchu and korean are more close to early neolithic northern east asian ( picture C) than Han and japanese.


    Ancestry localized to the north and south in the Early Neolithic is found in admixed form across northern and southern East Asia today. (A to C) A heatmap showing f4(Mbuti, X; Qihe, Bianbian), where Bianbian is the oldest northern East Asian sampled (~9,500 BP) and Qihe is the oldest southern East Asian sampled (~8,400 BP). X are East and Southeast Asians who date to the Early Neolithic (A), Late Neolithic (B), or present-day (C). Green indicates more affinity to Early Neolithic northern East Asians, whereas blue indicates greater affinity to Early Neolithic southern East Asians.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_341390966

  17. #67
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    celtic:


    Bronze age seima turbino (Elunino) :

    "Unfortunately, in China we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the Chemurchek culture. Kovalev, Erdenebaatar, Tishkin and Grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated Chemurchek stone boxes (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar 2014a; Tishkin et al. 2015). Such lead rings are typical for Elunino culture,which occupied the entire West Altai after 2400–2300 BCE (Tishkin et al. 2015)."


    "They also excavated sites belonging to the more recently identified Chemurchek archaeological culture, located in the foothills of the Mongolian Altai (Kovalev 2014, 2015) (Fig. 2.6). These sites are carbon-dated to the same period as the Afanasievo burials or to c. 3100/2500–1800 BCE (six barrows in Khovd aimag and four in Bayan-Ulgo aimag). In the rectangular stone kerbed Chemurchek slab burials (Ulaaanhus sum, Bayan-ul’gi aimag and so forth), bronze items included awls; and at Khovd aimag, Bulgan sum, in addition to stone sculptures, three lead and one bronze ring were excavated (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar 2009: Figs. 2 and 3; Fig. 2.6). Although we will not know if they were produced locally until much further investigation is undertaken, these discoveries do document knowledge of various uses and types of metal objects in western and south central Mongolia. The types of metal items thus far recovered are simple tools (awls) and rings (ornamental?) not unlike those associated with Andronovo archaeological cultures as well."


    Neolithic lake baikal:

  18. #68
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Bronze age seima turbino (Elunino) :

    "Unfortunately, in China we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the Chemurchek culture. Kovalev, Erdenebaatar, Tishkin and Grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated Chemurchek stone boxes (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar 2014a; Tishkin et al. 2015). Such lead rings are typical for Elunino culture,which occupied the entire West Altai after 2400–2300 BCE (Tishkin et al. 2015)."
    chemurchek skull:
    Remarkable morphological similarities between the individual from Hulagash and the bearers of the Elunino archaeological culture(Ob) reinforce the assumption that there is a cultural affinity between the Chemurchek and Elunino populations of the Early Bronze Age.

    According to anthro data, huge convex nose zone existed from EHG groups to bronze altai

    https://www.academia.edu/42027328/Pa...B%D0%B8%D0%B8_


    Neolithic west siberia (Ob-irtysh) skull:





    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Graphical-facial-reconstruction-of-a-man-from-the-Neolithic-cemetery-of-Zhelezinka-by_fig1_336560655


    -> Elunin yDNA: Q admixture: east/west 50/50, developed from P297 bol'shemysskaya culture.
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/p..._Tableau14.jpg


  19. #69
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Seima turbino has lead ring culture: sun = circle(vedic mandala) = ring (so sunhead)

    1. Xiaohe : caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin)
    etery
    https://himushi.com/%E6%96%B0%E7%96%...2%93%E5%9C%B0/

    2. okunevo culture:


    3.mayan rain god:



    4. Hongshan xinglongwa culture (興隆洼文化) (6200–5400 bc)

    http://www.gg-art.com/article/index/read/aid/28222

    another ring eyes in
    xinglongwa culture :
    https://wemp.app/posts/989fdaf0-6522-4b8c-9884-c5b90bd09676
    The Tarim Basin samples (~1600-1900 BC) had 2 R1b2-pre-PH155 and 1 R1(xR1a, R1b-L754):

    "we find that the earliest Tarim Basin cultures appear to have arisen from a genetically isolated local population that adopted neighbouring pastoralist and agriculturalist practices, which allowed them to settle and thrive along the shifting riverine oases of the Taklamakan Desert."

  20. #70
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    .




    according to grigoryev,
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.during xvi-xv centuries artefacts closely related to seyma tradition became typical for hoards in pannonia, france and england. thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of celts.a new wave of newcomers left f’odorovo culture sites. some include usually this culture, together withalakul culture, in andronovo culture.]

    From
    Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:




    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002
    "Dating from between 900 and 800BC, the objects will go on show for the first time in Havering Hoard: A Bronze Age Mystery, at the Museum Of London Docklands."

    More than 450 bronze objects, including weapons and tools, were unearthed.https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/e...splay-1744346/

    late bronze age at Britain


    [Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age.]

    ​Abstract


    Present-day populations from England and Wales harbour more ancestry derived from Early European Farmers (EEF) than did people of the Early Bronze Age. To study how this occurred, we generated genome-wide data from 803 individuals, almost all from the Middle to Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age, increasing data in this period from Britain by 12-fold, and from Western and Central Europe by more than two-fold. Between 1000-875 BCE, EEF ancestry increased in southern Britain (England and Wales) but not in northern Britain (Scotland), due to incorporation into the population of a stream of migrants who arrived at this time and in previous centuries and who were genetically most similar to ancient individuals from France. These migrants cumulatively contributed about half the ancestry of Iron Age people of England and Wales, thereby documenting a previously unknown demographic process that is a plausible vector for the spread of early Celtic languages into Britain. These patterns are part of a broader trend of EEF ancestry proportions becoming more similar across Central and Western Europe in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, coincident with intensification of cultural exchange and highlighting this period as a peak of interaction and mobility. We find no evidence of a comparable rate of migration into Britain in the Iron Age. The distinct genetic trajectories of Britain and continental Europe in the Iron Age are also exemplified by the fact that the allele conferring lactase persistence rose to ~50% frequency in Britain by this time whereas it was only ~7% in Central Europe and underwent a comparable rise in frequency only a millennium later, a pattern that could only occur if there were qualitative differences in how dairy products were used in Britain and in Central Europe.



    The One That’s The Biggest


    © WikiCommons
    Isleham Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 1000 BC, Cambridgshire, England
    The One That’s A Bit Woolly


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
    The One That Smells The Sweetest


    © Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
    Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England
    The One With The Most Wheels (And Sea Shells!)


    © British Museum
    Heathery Burn, Late Bronze Age, 1000-750 BC, County Durham, England

    # compare traditional nomad 銅鍑:
    https://t1.daumcdn.net/cafefile/pds6..._47d20adcb52ec
    Last edited by johen; 04-11-21 at 18:54.

  21. #71
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ring = circle = sky, heaven, sun = hindu mandala ( rig veda is mandala books)

    Neolithic baikal sun/sky(ring) culture migrated to neolithic Hongshan, bronze china.

    “On the territory of the Baikal region (Angara, Upper Lena, Baikal, Vitim), the late Mesolithic burial complexes were identified - related to the Khinsky and Schukin burial traditions; Early Neolithic - the Chinese tradition of burials; Late Neolithic — Isakovskaya, Serovskaya, Late-Serovskaya for Priolkhonya, “burial traditions” for the Upper Lena “archaic”.
    Hongshan platform at Niuheliang (Left) and central burial with carved jades from another platform (Right).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig8_7302635

    " Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4"

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264

    CIRCLE RING (SUN or SNAKE) culture migration:

    lake baikal:


    altai: seima turbino shaman



    Hallstatte:
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165

    celtic in spain:



    The One That’s A Bit Woolly


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
    The One That Smells The Sweetest



    © Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
    Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England

    Hallstatte:
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165

    celtic in spain:


    P.s
    I think common denominator of centum languages of celtic, greek and chinese bronze seems to be seima turbino:

    Originally Posted by jormung
    The problem of loanwords from indoeuropean to old chinese is very old and it is discussed in any good book about lndoeuropean linguistics.
    But we can find the discussion in several papers, for example in "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", by Alexander Lubolsky, or
    "Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age" by Tsung-tung Chang
    * dog, hound (ie: *kun-k, old ch: *huan(g),*khuen )
    * goose (ie: *ghans, old ch:*gans)
    * pork (ie: *pork, old ch:* pog)
    * horse (ie: *mork, old ch:*mog )
    * cow (ie: *gwhou , old ch: *gou )
    and several other as milk, chariot, ....

  22. #72
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    1. ring is a circle (sky/sun/heaven). And sarmatian sitting position:



    [the cauldron at Kal'mius (after SHTERN 1911). 2: depiction on the collar/diadem in barrow grave 10 at Kobyakovo (after MORDVINTSEVA 2003).]

    2. They were separated thousands and thousands ago, however:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec_civilization

    3. south asian's yoga sitting:



    4. Hongshan near manchu:
    https://i2.kknews.cc/SIG=3ktn6r6/106q000769n5s68097r3.jpg
    https://kknews.cc/culture/jv68oy6.html





    the celtic world of glauberg:
    www.travellingthepast.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Jug-handle-detail.jpg





    & 235: Bronze beak-spouted jug (Schnabelkanne) from the German Glauberg, decorated with a warrior figure in a cross-legged pose.


    The origins of the gundestrup cauldron - a smorgasbord of elements, scenes and cultural influences of eurasia, from the indus valley to gallia
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...lley_to_Gallia

  23. #73
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Echten sword:


    unetice culture:


    similar type of dagger in seima turbino:
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...5E2sQ&usqp=CAU

    Età del bronzo arcaica, pugnali, 2200-1600 ac ca:
    Last edited by johen; 13-11-21 at 09:18.

  24. #74
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    according to grigoryev,
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.during xvi-xv centuries artefacts closely related to seyma tradition became typical for hoards in pannonia, france and england. thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of celts.a new wave of newcomers left f’odorovo culture sites. some include usually this culture, together withalakul culture, in andronovo culture.]From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:


    unetice culture:


    similar type of dagger in seima turbino:
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...5E2sQ&usqp=CAU

    Italy Età del bronzo arcaica, pugnali, 2200-1600 ac ca:



    Portugal:

    A) Barrenhas or Vilela Seca hoard (according to Villas-Bôas 1948, Lám. 2); B) Moura da Serra hoard (according to Coffyn 1985, planche XLIII: 1-3); C) Coles de Samuel hoard (according to Bottaini et al. 2016: 346); D) Cabeço de Maria Candal hoard (according to Vilaça et al. 2012: 305); E) Solveira hoard (Photo credit: MDDS, Braga).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...ig41_330778975


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland

    Is it different from below?


  25. #75
    Elite member
    Join Date
    10-12-15
    Posts
    734


    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    anthropomorph in 2000 bc sanauli, india:



    Ancient chinese character of sky (tian):


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)


    scythian:
    www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20warrior%20skeleton%20in%2 0Cherkasy%20Oblast%20Regional%20Studies%20Museum.j pg
    "Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
    They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

    scythian:

    https://www.academia.edu/32764947/Sc...ernecine_Feuds

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •