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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Deus or Zeus > ancient chinese Tees > modern chinese Di( lord, son of sky or heaven)< altai petroglyph

    Ancient chinese character of sky (tian):


    circle B:

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...2i9kw&usqp=CAU



    MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.
    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rn_mexico.html
    Last edited by johen; 29-11-21 at 18:53.

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    "Drawing of three bronze ornaments: a) Karasuk culture c. 1400–1200 BC, diameter around 100mm Abakan Museum; b) Shimao 2000–1800 BC, diameter around 120mm, private museum in Shenmu; c) excavated at Taosi, diameter around 125mm Shanxi province (drawing by John Rawson)."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/shimao-and-erlitou-new-perspectives-on-the-origins-of-the-bronze-industry-in-central-china/672573C3699701D312E7D2286B973D5F



    "In northern northeast Thailand, bracelets like these were by far the most popular metal object, and almost all of them were made of a tin-bronze alloy. A few hundred kilometers south to another prehistoric site, bangles weren’t all that prominent. (Image: The Ban Chiang Project)"
    https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/Pen...logical-theory

    la tene culture:

    https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/148443...racelet-7-3-cm



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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "Diodorus Siculus, in his 1st-century History had this to say about Celtic head-hunting:
    They cut off the heads of enemies slain in battle and attach them to the necks of their horses. The blood-stained spoils they hand over to their attendants and striking up a paean and singing a song of victory; and they nail up these first fruits upon their houses, just as do those who lay low wild animals in certain kinds of hunting. They embalm in cedar oil the heads of the most distinguished enemies, and preserve them carefully in a chest, and display them with pride to strangers, saying that for this head one of their ancestors, or his father, or the man himself, refused the offer of a large sum of money. They say that some of them boast that they refused the weight of the head in gold."

    scythian:

    https://www.academia.edu/32764947/Sc...ernecine_Feuds


    "The man was buried with a massive gold torc around his neck (suggesting his noble origin) and a dagger in a golden quiver beside him"
    "East Kazakhstan 8th century B.C"https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/08/09/golden-man-found-in-burial-mound-in-kazakhstan/

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    moustache culture:



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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    "The man was buried with a massive gold torc around his neck (suggesting his noble origin) and a dagger in a golden quiver beside him"
    "East Kazakhstan 8th century B.C"https://www.archaeology.wiki/blog/2018/08/09/golden-man-found-in-burial-mound-in-kazakhstan/
    It seems to me that the gold torc means shaman halo like saint halo;

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    "Drawing of three bronze ornaments: a) Karasuk culture c. 1400–1200 BC, diameter around 100mm Abakan Museum; b) Shimao 2000–1800 BC, diameter around 120mm, private museum in Shenmu; c) excavated at Taosi, diameter around 125mm Shanxi province (drawing by John Rawson)."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/shimao-and-erlitou-new-perspectives-on-the-origins-of-the-bronze-industry-in-central-china/672573C3699701D312E7D2286B973D5F



    "In northern northeast Thailand, bracelets like these were by far the most popular metal object, and almost all of them were made of a tin-bronze alloy. A few hundred kilometers south to another prehistoric site, bangles weren’t all that prominent. (Image: The Ban Chiang Project)"
    https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/Pen...logical-theory

    la tene culture:

    https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/148443...racelet-7-3-cm
    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC


    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC
    http://sadigh.weebly.com/featured-ar...gory/ouroboros



    And then Mayan calendar:
    https://www.seekpng.com/png/full/327...n-calendar.png


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    ^
    It seems to me that the bracelets of la tene, karashuk and shimao are not just ornament, but the origin in Japamala :



    "A japamala, jaap maala, or simply mala (Sanskrit: माला; mālā, meaning 'garland'[1]) is a string of prayer beads commonly used in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Buddhism for the spiritual practice (sadhana) known in Sanskrit as japa. They are similar to other forms of prayer beads used in various world religions and sometimes referred to in English as a "rosary", reflecting similarities to Christian practices."

    Shiva is frequently depicted wearing a pair of rudraksha malas in Shaiva Hindu iconography

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    "The vajra in South American cultures


    In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/arti...pon-war-008467

    same thing here okunevo:
    And They built their city on the top of mountain maybe for this reason:


    Kozintsev:

    "Unlike the previously outlined Scenario 1, which placed the IE,
    Uralic and Indo-Uralic homelands in the area east of the Caspian
    Sea, not far from the presumed common Eurasiatic homeland,
    Scenario 2 locates the latter in a much more easterly area
    between Lake Balkhash and the Altai. With regard to proto-IE,
    Scenario 2 is an extension of Scenario 1 back in time and space,
    adding a very long initial stretch of the westward expansion of
    Indo-Hittite across most of western Central Asia"

    "In line with johanna nichols’ early view (1997, 1998), i postulated the primary westward spread of ie from that locus, caused by the transition of one of the early farming groups to seminomadic pastoralism. the spread, however, likely occurred, not by two routes (the northern one to the western steppe, the southern to the near east),but only by the southern mountainous route along the elburz. an additional fact supporting this scenario is that, judging by reconstructed pie terms for topographical features, the indo-hittites, at some stage of their history, lived in a mountainous terrain, moreover, that the mountain was perceived as a “mighty cliff reaching to the sky”; in addition, there was a sea or large lake nearby (gamkrelidze, ivanov 1995: 574–577; dybo 2013). as the authors conclude, this eliminates the steppe as a primary homeland."

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    [/QUOTE]

    "The main body of a mala is usually 108 beads, though other numbers are also used."


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    I am always thinking, why does okunevo person thri face circles? Does it hold shiva's trident?

    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/

    Numerous attributes identify this crowned figure as the great Hindu god Shiva: the vertical third eye, linked snakes across the chest, tiger skin draped across the thigh, and an erect phallus, symbol of both potency and control. The three heads express different aspects of this manifold deity. A smiling female, a benign male, and a violent male perhaps correspond to Shiva’s powers as creator, protector, and destroyer. The now missing arms would have held additional emblems to communicate the god’s cosmic powers.

    https://harvardartmuseums.org/collec...467?position=7

    And mayan


    And also the above okunevo person with moon shape:
    https://images.hive.blog/p/C3TZR1g81...=fit&width=768
    https://hive.blog/archaeology/@markj...unevo-moon-man

    shiva with moon and trident



    Last edited by johen; 12-12-21 at 22:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    CIRCLE RING (SUN or SNAKE) culture migration:

    lake baikal:


    altai: seima turbino shaman



    Hallstatt:
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165

    the celts in spain:



    The One That’s A Bit Woolly


    © National Museums Scotland
    St Andrews Hoard, Late Bronze Age, c. 950-750 BC, Fife, Scotland
    The One That Smells The Sweetest



    © Portable Antiquities Scheme / DigVentures
    Lancaster Hoard, Late Bronze Age, 1150-800BC Lancashire, England

    Hallstatte:
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x111165


    P.s
    I think common denominator of centum languages of the celts, greek and chinese bronze seems to be seima turbino:

    Originally Posted by jormung
    The problem of loanwords from indoeuropean to old chinese is very old and it is discussed in any good book about lndoeuropean linguistics.
    But we can find the discussion in several papers, for example in "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", by Alexander Lubolsky, or
    "Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age" by Tsung-tung Chang
    * dog, hound (ie: *kun-k, old ch: *huan(g),*khuen )
    * goose (ie: *ghans, old ch:*gans)
    * pork (ie: *pork, old ch:* pog)
    * horse (ie: *mork, old ch:*mog )
    * cow (ie: *gwhou , old ch: *gou )
    and several other as milk, chariot, ....
    seima turbino rings:


    star symbol (2-1 below)if Qijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:


    star symbol of Hallstatt:


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    "Drawing of three bronze ornaments: a) Karasuk culture c. 1400–1200 BC, diameter around 100mm Abakan Museum; b) Shimao 2000–1800 BC, diameter around 120mm, private museum in Shenmu; c) excavated at Taosi, diameter around 125mm Shanxi province (drawing by John Rawson)."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/shimao-and-erlitou-new-perspectives-on-the-origins-of-the-bronze-industry-in-central-china/672573C3699701D312E7D2286B973D5F



    "In northern northeast Thailand, bracelets like these were by far the most popular metal object, and almost all of them were made of a tin-bronze alloy. A few hundred kilometers south to another prehistoric site, bangles weren’t all that prominent. (Image: The Ban Chiang Project)"
    https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/Pen...logical-theory

    Hallstatt/ la tene culture:

    https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/148443...racelet-7-3-cm


    Mycenaean:


    Mayan codex Borgia:

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    star symbol (2-1 below)if Qijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:


    star symbol of Hallstatt:


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg
    They all remind me of Sanauli triangle patterns:


    another Qijia culture mirror with the same triangle patterns:



    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In India:
    2000 BC Sanauli warrior in supine style with chariot



    Last edited by johen; 30-12-21 at 00:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC

    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC
    http://sadigh.weebly.com/featured-ar...gory/ouroboros
    snake is a sun's ray. Snake belly has lots of equal segments:
    https://nypost.com/2021/12/28/death-of-egyptian-pharaoh-amenhotep-i-still-a-mystery/?utm_source=flipboard&utm_medium=syndicated&utm_ca mpaign=partnerfeed

    Mayan and Karasuk (a) have 7 segments:





    -Hindu Mala has 108 equal segments

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    I really don’t understand why seima turbino culture was totally killed. Can IE migation to India really be explained without seima-turbino culture analysis?


    As I said before, central asia horse people seems to start to butcher farmers in whole eurasia like mongol around 1,500bc when IE people migrated to India. Any andronovo culture was not found near south asia, but okunevo and maybe seima turbino also.
    The Seima-Turbino people were the primary carriers of hg N3a1. R1a1-M17 marks the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans in Asia, while R1b-M269 (R1b1a1a2) is a genetic signature of Steppe ancestry in Europe. GLAV_14, a male from the Late Eneolithic site Glăvăneştii Vechi (ca. 3500-3000 BC), belongs to a basal subclade of R1a1-M17. The burial is part of the Late Cucuteni–Trypillia culture that flourished in today's Romania and Ukraine. Since this individual is the oldest M17 sample, the migration of R1a1-M17 to India could have started with the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture that was completely destroyed by the Yamnaya.


    Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages.


    N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6301604#bbib49
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThirdTerm View Post
    The Seima-Turbino people were the primary carriers of hg N3a1. R1a1-M17 marks the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans in Asia, while R1b-M269 (R1b1a1a2) is a genetic signature of Steppe ancestry in Europe. GLAV_14, a male from the Late Eneolithic site Glăvăneştii Vechi (ca. 3500-3000 BC), belongs to a basal subclade of R1a1-M17. The burial is part of the Late Cucuteni–Trypillia culture that flourished in today's Romania and Ukraine. Since this individual is the oldest M17 sample, the migration of R1a1-M17 to India could have started with the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture that was completely destroyed by the Yamnaya.
    As far as I am concerned, only Q was found in ST Elunin culture which was related with bolshemys eneolithic culture. The bolshemys has P297 predating afanasievo. Moreover WSHG outlier R1a, Q1a, z2013 were found in sintashta surrounded by Seima turbino. However today I read one post in anthrogenica by russian member that ST Odino cuture have Q1a, Q*, C in the thread of "importance of the altai/sayan/bikal region to the peopling of euraisa" #11.

    Anyway one of most important fact regarding PIE is zeus/indra concept who has sunhead and thunderbolt(snake), not horse.
    This concept can be found in the plate of Malta 24000 years ago showing spiral sun deity and snake. That is why mesoamerican has the same sky god. Problem is yamna/afanasievo/CWC/ sintashta/ andronovo have no snake or thunderbolt concept or weapon like this:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).

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    [COLOR=rgb(var(--color_0))]Seima turbino people seemed to have a belief in reincarnation of dead people to be a "crane" as dead soldier is turned into " white crane" by
    Dmitri song

    The dagger was discovered in tumulus No. 2, where a 10-centimeter coaly layer covered bone remains of a 9- or 10-year-old boy burnt in a special “crematorium”. In consistence with the necropolis funeral rites, the dagger was stuck into the floor of the bone chamber and covered with crane fragments left after cremation. The tomb doesn’t look too rich, given the number and composition of funerary gifts, but such highly prestigious object as a knife with carved finial indicates that the boy belonged to the upper class of Seima-Tubino society. In the social structure of the latter, the main roles were played by nomadic warriors and bronze casters, who possessed the most sophisticated technologies of the time. In the mid-2nd millennium BC, they made a huge forced march from Xinjiang in the east to the lower reach of Dniester in the west, leaving only burial sites and memorial altars behind them. The hallmark of such altars were glorious bronze weapons: celts, hefty spearheads, daggers, etc
    .An exclusive group of Seima-Turbino bronze includes “ceremonial” (“prestigious”, “lord status”) weapon—daggers with carved handles. The knife from Rostovka stands out even in this category, being known as the most exquisite and mysterious item. It consists of two separately cast parts: a single-edged blade and a handle crowned with an absolutely unique composition of a horse and a skier. The statuary is made by lost-wax casting and “soldered” to the blade with molten metal. A man with high Mongoloid cheekbones is standing on short skis, tied to a horse with a rein. The horse has a massive head, short legs and an erect mane, resembling those of extinct tarpans or still existing Przewalski’s horses.[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(var(--color_0))] The composition is interpreted based on two alternative hypotheses. One of them admits skiers really moved around by being pulled behind galloping horses back in the Bronze Age. However, the static figure of the horse doesn’t fit in this conception. Moreover, the skier seems to be rather holding back the horse he has just caught than following it, as judged by the specific angle of his body and the position of the skis. More preference is given to the version claiming the scene on the handle of the unique knife has a mythic or ritual nature. For instance, it could be a motive of a cultural hero catching a horse. The plot dates back to the era of horse domestication and has been variously preserved in myths of many peoples of the world.

    https://www.artefact.tsu.ru/07-dagge...al-from-rostov

    [/COLOR]

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    How do we interpret this map?

    I think we would not draw mongol territory by population genetics without historical records.


    This is greek colonisation:



    andronovo daggers:



    seima turbino daggers:



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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    "Drawing of three bronze ornaments: a) Karasuk culture c. 1400–1200 BC, diameter around 100mm Abakan Museum; b) Shimao 2000–1800 BC, diameter around 120mm, private museum in Shenmu; c) excavated at Taosi, diameter around 125mm Shanxi province (drawing by John Rawson)."


    "In northern northeast Thailand, bracelets like these were by far the most popular metal object, and almost all of them were made of a tin-bronze alloy. A few hundred kilometers south to another prehistoric site, bangles weren’t all that prominent. (Image: The Ban Chiang Project)"

    Hallstatt /la tene culture:

    number 20 in okunevo culture:

    https://arheologija.ru/hlobyistina-p...uzhnoy-sibiri/

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    star symbol (2-1 below) of Qijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:


    star symbol of Hallstatt:


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg
    triangle and diamond patterns on seima turbino celt:


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    same patterns in Botai:


    https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/course/60...uction/newWeb/

    in sintashta:




    Syntashta burial ground (CM). Ceramic with "quasieneolithic" ornamental reminiscences. 1-Pit 32 ; 2-Pit 8; 3-Pit 35; 4-5-Pit 2; 6-Pit 3. After: Генинг, Зданович, Генинг, 1992.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Syntashta-burial-ground-CM-Ceramic-with-quasieneolithic-ornamental-reminiscences_fig2_325174864
    Last edited by johen; 28-01-22 at 02:46.

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    I really appreciate your support inyour posts, guys. Keep it up and doing such types of great work continually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Macro-regional interconnections among ancient hunter-gatherers of the Cis-Baikal, Eastern Siberia
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4061821501201X



    celtic Head motif stick top, II bc:


    India copper hoard Y crown (up) and Y sword (2,000 -1,500bc)


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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Anyway one of most important fact regarding PIE is zeus/indra concept who has sunhead and thunderbolt(snake), not horse.
    This concept can be found in the plate of Malta 24000 years ago showing spiral sun deity and snake. That is why mesoamerican has the same sky god. Problem is yamna/afanasievo/CWC/ sintashta/ andronovo have no snake or thunderbolt concept or weapon like this:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).
    It seems to me that Seima turbino people had a concept of Caduceus or double head snake considering two snake headed dagger and two snake intertwined pattern on dagger above. ( we can see where diamond patterns on the celt originate. But I don't understand triangle patterns on horse neck.)

    china where PIE land on


    Hindu
    Nagas, Snakes in Hinduism.
    neolithic Hongshan:




    Maya


    Sumer. Is there any possibility of WSHG to reach Sumer like IVC?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduce...ient_Near_East
    https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/s...eptiles130.htm
    https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/...headed-serpent
    https://wsimag.com/art/2674-hongshan...-chinese-jades
    Last edited by johen; 05-02-22 at 07:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    Naga(snake)-mandala is a religious ritual theater in the cultural region of Tulu Nadu

    Anglo-Saxon :

    Decoding the great gold buckle from Sutton Hoo © Trustees of the British Museum,
    https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/early-medieval-art/early-medieval-objects/a/decoding-anglo-saxon-art




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