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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ancient chinese character of sky (tian):


    circle B:
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...2i9kw&usqp=CAU


    Mexico



    MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.
    https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rn_mexico.html
    Old world vs New world:

    1.




    a. The Nebra disc adorned with gold plates that might represent the sun, the moon and stars. b. Back view. c. Profile


    "The Nebra disc is one of the most sensational European discoveries of the decade. It appears to carry symbols of the sun, moon and stars wrought in gold on a flat bronze disc just over a foot across (320mm). It is not only very strange, but, famously, appears to be winking, initially raising the suspicion that it may be a hoax. Scholars have, however, claimed it firmly for the Bronze Age, and the debate now moves to the matter of its meaning. Here the authors offer a subtle interpretation that sees it as the shamanistic device of a local warrior society."

    vs





    Modern Inuit artistic work. Nunavut, by Kenojuak Ashevak. Cape Dorset, 1993. Note the similarity in relative size, position and orientation of the centre objects with those on the 3600 year old Nebra disc (by courtesy of the West Baffin Eskimo Co-operative and Indian and Northern Affairs, Canada).

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig5_233530036

    2.


    Migration Period picture stone from Havor, Hablingbo, Gotland



    vs


    Cox mound gorget (Mississippian culture, found in Tennessee, c.1250–1450)

    ^ Triangle patterns on steppe culture seems to be sun's ray:




    Typical Seima-Turbino hollow-core cast implements: a deep-socketed adze-axe from Rostovka cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p. 221; b socketed spear point with single process cast socket from Seima cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p 219

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_226578828

    Moreover horse seems to become a holy animal like a serpent since seima turbino culture:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).



    So I think it is not strange of Aryan to act like this:
    https://travelswithsheila.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/erotic-5.jpg
    Last edited by johen; 10-02-22 at 08:28.

  2. #102
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    An exclusive group of Seima-Turbino bronze includes “ceremonial” (“prestigious”, “lord status”) weapon—daggers with carved handles. The knife from Rostovka stands out even in this category, being known as the most exquisite and mysterious item. It consists of two separately cast parts: a single-edged blade and a handle crowned with an absolutely unique composition of a horse and a skier.

    Archaeologically the concept of Lord seems to appear at seima turbino culture. The seima turbino migrated to south and reach china where PIE and sky god concept occurred:

    Deus/ Zeus> ancient chinese Tees > modern chinese Di (Lord or son of sky)

    Shangdi
    (上帝, pinyin: Shàngdì, Wade-Giles Shang Ti), or simply Di (帝), is the High God (or Clan Ancestor) postulated in the earliest-known religious system of the Han Chinese people. The term can literally be translated as "Emperor (or Sovereign) Above," "Lord On High," "Highest Lord," "the Supreme God," or "Celestial Lord." While such terminology implies parallels with the divinities of the world's monotheistic traditions, two important differences must be acknowledged: first, while Shangdi was understood as a patriarchal ruler deity, this conception was not conflated with a role in the cosmogony; second, He was seen as one deity (ancestor) among many.[1] In this way, Shangdi bears more similarities to the dyeus figures in Indo-European religions (e.g., Zeus, Jupiter, Tiwaz) than to the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims.
    Shang oracle bone graph for 帝 Di:


    or



    so 帝 Di (lord or zeus) is closely related with sumerian Anu. Again WSHG would reach sumer.

    Anu
    ������������
    Sky Father, King of the Gods, Lord of the Constellations
    Ur III Sumerian cuneiform for An
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu

    and
    https://i1.kknews.cc/o6qBR6kHF7tEMle...0aXPxWzg/0.jpg

    https://kknews.cc/culture/94x39b5.html

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How do we interpret this map?

    I think we would not draw mongol territory by population genetics without historical records.

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Can IE migation to India really be explained without seima-turbino culture analysis?

    As I said before, central asia horse people seems to start to butcher farmers in whole eurasia like mongol around 1,500bc when IE people migrated to India. Any andronovo culture was not found near south asia, but okunevo and maybe seima turbino.




    according to grigoryev,
    "...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.during xvi-xv centuries artefacts closely related to seyma tradition became typical for hoards in pannonia, france and england. thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of celts.a new wave of newcomers left f’odorovo culture sites. some include usually this culture, together withalakul culture, in andronovo culture."
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    "Strassberg (2003; Shan Hai Jing) describes semi-annular jade pendants as part of ritual ware from the Chinese Xia dynasty. He recounts that: “In his [the Xia sovereign, Qi] left hand, he held a feathered pennant, in his right, a jade ring, and he wore a jade semicircle [read, semi-annular jade pendant] on his belt” (Strassberg 2003: 168). The earliest (securely dated) semi-annular jade pendant dates to the Neolithic period (2200–1600 BC) in northern China. This type of ornament has been found at many early Bronze Age sites, such as the Qijiang Culture sites in Qinghai and Gansu provinces, the Longshan Culture sites in Shaanxi province and the Taosi Culture sites in Shanxi province. The ornaments can be divided into three groups. The first is represented by two semi-annular jade pendants, dated to the Taosi Culture (2500–1800 BC) (Figure 2: 1–2). The second group refers to the three divided ring pendants (Figure 2: 5–6), which are dated to the Bronze Age Qijia Culture in Qinghai and Gansu provinces (2200–1600 BC) (Liu & Chen 2012; Gu 2015). The third group are jade ring pendants dating to the time between the first two groups (Figure 2: 3–4)."

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2B0612E48DE264
    I would like to quote a post in the other forum. Scholars usually focus upon weapons in steppe culture. However their bracelets or disks are too precious to be ignored. It is a their faith and belief of circle/ mandala sun and snake. I think scythian and celtic torc has the same concept. As I posted in this thread before, this culture spread from neolithic baikal to Honshan, finally becoming an elite culture in china. Why not in west? Its culture was introduced in the celts.
    One site around black sea is extremely important. It is a Borodino treasure site where the celtic, mycenaean and seima turnino's culture appears. The relevant evidence is here in this thread.

    I was recently gifted Evgenij N. Chernykh's most recent book
    Nomadic Cultures in the Mega-Structure of the Eurasian World (2017). The scope of this book is massive but I have just finished reading his chapter focusing on Seima-Turbino. Because Chernykh has been a premier archeologist on this subject for over thirty years, I decided to share what I've read.

    I'll keep it concise, in point form and try to detail the main points. A lot of this may be old news for some of you, but here it goes:

    - In Chernykh's view ST was one of the most "astonishing" surges of development in Eurasian prehistory. In many respects more developed than anything seen in the Circumpontic metallurgical province.

    - ST was entirely independent from preceding metallurgical traditions in the regions it occupied.

    - The first clear example of an aggressive east-west migration "forerunners of Genghis Khan".

    - Chance finds in an expanse of up to 4 million km², from the Baltic/Lower Dniester to Central China. There is an inexplicably small number of finds throughout this area. Finds are primarily weapons, flint spearheads, metal jewelry, sculptures and in larger assemblages, nephrite "bracelets" or disks.

    - ST "cemeteries" rarely contain burial pits, and when they do, they often don't contain human remains. When human remains are present, they are usually burned beyond usefulness to anthropologists. "Memorial sanctuary" or "altar" is sometimes used to denote similar sites.

    - "Transcultural Phenomenon" is used because Seima-Turbino assemblages appear across cultural boundaries and within synchronous cultural landscapes.

    -Majority of ST monuments are found next to water (Yurino-Volga, Reshnoe-Oka, Sokolovsk-Volga/Kama, Rostovaka-Om, etc.)

    - Primary metal finds are socketed axes, spearheads (distinguished by shape of midrib), flat knife without tang and long knives/daggers with "truly outstanding" decorated handles. Sophisticated wax-casting was utilized, unseen in the west at this time.

    - Tin-bronze was favored by all ST groups, but is most common in the east. West of the Urals pure-copper, copper with arsenic and silver-copper/copper-silver alloys were used, but are rare in the east.

    -Western Altai was the most likely source of tin and bronze used by eastern groups. The slopes of the eastern Urals "north of Kargaly" likely supplied western groups.

    -Most widespread motif is the horse, only appears on single-bladed knives.

    -Rostovka skier and metal sculptures (possibly depicting shaman) have distinct "Mongoloid" features.

    - "Eastern" animal motifs (wild rams, mountain goat and tiger) suggest ST was not native to West Siberia. Instead, the extent of these animals was the Southern Altai region, Gobi Desert and Tian Shan, but not much farther west or north.

    - Highly personalized motifs on knife pommels could be totem animals, representing tribal affiliations.

    - There are almost no nephrite deposits west of the Sayan mountain chain, the most developed mines even today, are located on the eastern slopes of the Tian Shan range. ST was the first to bring nephrite jewelry to the west.

    -"It is most likely that the "Seima-Turbino" Phenomenon originated somewhere in the western parts of what is today the Xinjiang-Uighur Autonomous District of China, that is from the Mongolian Altai up to the Eastern Tian Shan, including Dzungaria and parts of the Tarim River Basin, perhaps including adjacent areas to the north and west".

    -All horses depicted by ST are small in stature, with a disproportionately large head. These feature suggest the probable model for these images was the wild horses of the Mongolian steppe, including the Przheval'skii's horse.

    - Why have no proto-types of ST artifacts been found in this area? Chernykh attributes this to the "Mongolian syndrome". The early ST groups may not have deposited their goods in a way that preserved them over time. Similar to the 13th century Mongols, who left little archeological trace. ST could have altered their belief system after encountering other populations.

    -Armed riders formed the nucleolus of ST and followed major rivers west. They may have used boats, but there is no evidence left to indicate whether they did.

    -After the end of ST, Samus-Kizhirovo continued their metallurgical traditions in the Taiga zone. But cut off from metal deposits in the Altai, they quickly faded from existence.

    -Karasuk knives have clear parallels in the ST-type knives, however other Karasuk assemblages are too different to be descended from ST models. There is also a gap in chronology between the two. Chernykh concludes that Karasuk can not be a considered true heirs of ST metallurgy.
    Last edited by johen; 16-02-22 at 19:48.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I am always thinking, why does okunevo person tri face circles? Does it hold shiva's trident?

    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/

    Numerous attributes identify this crowned figure as the great Hindu god Shiva: the vertical third eye, linked snakes across the chest, tiger skin draped across the thigh, and an erect phallus, symbol of both potency and control. The three heads express different aspects of this manifold deity. A smiling female, a benign male, and a violent male perhaps correspond to Shiva’s powers as creator, protector, and destroyer. The now missing arms would have held additional emblems to communicate the god’s cosmic powers
    https://harvardartmuseums.org/collec...467?position=7

    And mayan
    Okunev, Krokhalevka and Samus anthropomorphic characters, three head one

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...X50NY&usqp=CAU

    http://elib.sfu-kras.ru/bitstream/ha...=1&isAllowed=y

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    Cox mound gorget (Mississippian culture, found in Tennessee, c.1250–1450)

    ^ Triangle patterns on steppe culture seems to be sun's ray:


    Moreover horse seems to become a holy animal like a serpent since seima turbino culture:
    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).

    Those are "Ancient Greek Bronze Museum Statue Replica of Horse From Geometric Era." It seems to me that they are not a fake. Their triangle patterns are same as seima turbino one above.
    Moreover They seemed to think of horse neck as ouroboros and mane as sun's ray like a snake.





    https://www.decorarconarte.com/en/p/caballo-griego-2/
    https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/7363...e-horse-statue
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongshan_culture
    https://www.amazon.ca/Ancient-Bronze.../dp/B00GHI5NGK

    like this as I posted before;


    "In northern northeast Thailand, bracelets like these were by far the most popular metal object, and almost all of them were made of a tin-bronze alloy. A few hundred kilometers south to another prehistoric site, bangles weren’t all that prominent. (Image: The Ban Chiang Project)"
    https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/Pen...logical-theory

    la tene culture:

    https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/148443...racelet-7-3-cm




    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC


    Ancient Egypt. Carved green soapstone Ouroboros rings. Ptolemaic. 305-30 BC
    http://sadigh.weebly.com/featured-ar...gory/ouroboros


  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The horse seems to be a special one for special people. Its mane is like a shape of dragon. And there are snake patterns or snake scale(?) on its neck. It reminds me of Longma (dragon horse) in the mythology of china where PIE land on.(Long means dragon, ma horse):


    "The longma is a fabled winged horse with dragon scales in Chinese mythology. Seeing a longma was an omen of a legendary sage-ruler, particularly one of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors."


    Mosaic of the third century BC from Kaulon (Magna Graecia, southern Italy)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post



    okunevo symbols at the bottom of pottery:




    1Local women help the bride, Sellma Demirovic, to get dressed in traditional clothes for a typical wedding in Donje Ljubinje, a predominantly ethnic Bosniak village of some 3,000 residents located in the Shar Mountains on the border between Kosovo and North Macedonia.
    - mycenaean mask replica


    korea traditional mask and wedding culture

    "they put powder made out of rice on their face to make it whiter."

    ^ This steppe culture migrated in northeast asia also.

    see seima turbino artifact 23;


    https://www.rferl.org/a/kosovo-village-painted-bride/31416488.html
    https://makeupsoftheworld.weebly.com...ng-makeup.html
    https://arheologija.ru/pamyatniki-se...ipa-v-evrazii/
    Last edited by johen; 21-02-22 at 23:08.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In order to understand PIE sun-head culture it is very important of oracle bone in china where PIE reached

    see the eyes of horse and mycenaean charioteer and then oracle bone two scripts of SUN:


    Moreover, the script of dagger knife above has a curve like seima turbino dagger which is quite a innovation.



    https://chinesesays.com/%E7%94%B2%E9%AA%A8%E6%96%87/
    Last edited by johen; 22-02-22 at 02:20.

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    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    As far as I am concerned, only Q was found in ST Elunin culture which was related with bolshemys eneolithic culture. The bolshemys has P297 predating afanasievo. Moreover WSHG outlier R1a, Q1a, z2013 were found in sintashta surrounded by Seima turbino. However today I read one post in anthrogenica by russian member that ST Odino cuture have Q1a, Q*, C in the thread of "importance of the altai/sayan/bikal region to the peopling of euraisa" #11.

    Anyway one of most important fact regarding PIE is zeus/indra concept who has sunhead and thunderbolt(snake), not horse.
    This concept can be found in the plate of Malta 24000 years ago showing spiral sun deity and snake. That is why mesoamerican has the same sky god. Problem is yamna/afanasievo/CWC/ sintashta/ andronovo have no snake or thunderbolt concept or weapon like this:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).
    Seima turbino has such a variety of daggers as a lord-status weapon as quoted before. I think they have snake(thunderbolt), snake and snake culture like hindu culture. They have curved daggers, which seems to be an innovation at that time. It is b/c generally curved knife is better than straight knife for chopping. As mentioned before, they have ring pommel daggers and animal headed daggers. Basically this tradition continued in karasuk and scythian. As quoted before, animal art originated in okunevo culture. I think circle ring or animal is their faith or religion like totem animal of which strong spirit protects human and heals them. It seems that barbaric andronovo did NOT INHERIT or IMPORT ST culture at all. However, this culture went straight forward civilized china becoming a legacy.

    Karasuk:




    "Northwestern focuses (Karasuk) of the East-Asian metallurgical province: arsenical bronze producing. A-Karasuk inventory: B-Karasuk-Tagar knives (later phase)."

    Karasuk culture. According to H.L. Membership

    China:



    (first one is in erlitou culture, 2nd in tarim basin Quijia, 3rd in tianshan Xinjiang and 4th in Seima turbino)

    Finally knife money in china:


    "Knife money is the name of large, cast, bronze, knife-shaped commodity money produced by various governments and kingdoms in what is now China, approximately 2500 years ago. Knife money circulated in China between 600 and 200 B.C. during the Zhou dynasty."



    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50224029_The_Steppe_Belt_of_

    Karasuk culture. According to H.L. Membership_cultures_in_Eurasia_during_the_Early_Metal_Age
    https://arheologija.ru/istoricheskaya-obstanovka-epohi/
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...om/880814.html

    https://inf.news/en/culture/d7e77a0f...14fc631cc.html

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^

    Seima turbino has such a variety of daggers as a lord-status weapon as quoted before. I think they have "snake(thunderbolt)", snake and snake culture like hindu culture. They have curved daggers, which seems to be an innovation at that time. It is b/c generally curved knife is better than straight knife for chopping. As mentioned before, they have ring pommel daggers and animal headed daggers. Basically this tradition continued in karasuk and scythian. As quoted before, animal art originated in okunevo culture. I think circle ring or animal is their faith or religion like totem animal of which strong spirit protects human and heals them. It seems that barbaric andronovo did NOT INHERIT or IMPORT ST culture at all. However, this culture went straight forward civilized china becoming a legacy.
    "The snake primarily represents rebirth, death and mortality, due to its casting of its SKIN and being symbolically "reborn". Over a large part of India there are carved representations of cobras or nagas or stones as substitutes. To these human food and flowers are offered and lights are burned before the shrines."





    armour made by ST krotovo artifact in the link below
    http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u5/sibir_34.jpg

    https://bigenc.ru/archeology/text/3545398
    http://history.novosibdom.ru/node/46

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Taras Shevchenko' will


    When I die,
    let me rest, let me lie
    amidst Ukraine’s broad steppes.
    Let me see
    the endless fields and steep slopes
    I hold so dear.

    Let me hear
    the Dnipro’s great roar.
    And when the blood
    of Ukraine’s foes flows
    into the blue waters of the sea,
    that’s when I’ll forget
    the fields and hills
    and leave it all
    and pray to God.
    Until then, I know no God.

    So bury me, rise up,
    and break your chains.
    Water your freedom
    with the blood of oppressors.
    And then remember me
    with gentle whispers
    and kind words
    in the great family
    of the newly free.

    http://sites.utoronto.ca/elul/Ukr_Li...oems-Motyl.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taras_Shevchenko

  12. #112
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    seima turbino shaman's flexed legs:



    https://www.kaichitravel.com/attractions/kalbak-tash/
    "The 7,000 years old Neolithic grave by lake Baikal might belong to one of the world’s oldest settlements."



    cherokee:



    supine-flexed burial in american indian mound:
    https://www.ncpedia.org/media/museum-town-creek-state-0

    supine-flexed burial : yamna
    Prydnistryanske, Yampil region reconstruction of stages of grave IV/4 construction by M. Podsiadło

    https://indo-european.eu/2018/08/the...eppe-cultures/
    Figure 27. Burial schemes of pit graves found in the Lower Danube region during the Eneolithic according to Frînculeasa, Preda, and Heyd (2015).

    "The Kumsay burial site was first discovered in 2009, and is named after the village it was found nearby, near the Ulriver in western Kazakhstan. Roughly this location. This burial site was classified as being part of the Yamnaya horizon based on the burials rites of the perople. These burials were '"pit graves" covered with an earthen mound. Just like with the Yamnaya. Furthermore, many of the people ad a supine position with flexed legs, similar to the positions seen with the Yamnaya. And the people buried here were sprinkled with red ochre, another tradition also prevalent in the Yamnaya horizon.
    What is interesting about the people here was that many of them were really big, sturdy people. Aside from the general robust features and all, several of the people here were well over 190 cm, reaching up to and above 2 meters tall! "

    https://musaeumscythia.blogspot.com/2021/11/a-look-at-kumsay-graveyard-of-giants.html


    botai (3500bc) kumsay (3000bc) genetic admixture:

    Last edited by johen; 23-03-22 at 18:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    .
    First One of Quijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached: 7


    symbol of Hallstatt:7


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg

    7 Segments:

    Mycenaean Diadem: 7


    7 snake head


    Seven-Headed Luther




    slavic tradition:

    https://www.boredpanda.com/slavic-wr...mpaign=organic

  14. #114
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    ^
    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    Triangle patterns on steppe culture seems to be sun's ray:




    Typical Seima-Turbino hollow-core cast implements: a deep-socketed adze-axe from Rostovka cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p. 221; b socketed spear point with single process cast socket from Seima cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p 219

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_226578828

    Moreover horse seems to become a holy animal like a serpent since seima turbino culture:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).
    Triangle (horse mane) up, diamond ( snakes intertwined) down 4000 years ago in steppe.
    Does this tradition still survive in steppe now?


    https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...y-8167441.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Okunev, Krokhalevka and Samus anthropomorphic characters, three head one

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...X50NY&usqp=CAU

    http://elib.sfu-kras.ru/bitstream/ha...=1&isAllowed=y

    "Numerous attributes identify this crowned figure as the great Hindu god Shiva: the vertical third eye, linked snakes across the chest, tiger skin draped across the thigh, and an erect phallus, symbol of both potency and control. The three heads express different aspects of this manifold deity. A smiling female, a benign male, and a violent male perhaps correspond to Shiva’s powers as creator, protector, and destroyer. The now missing arms would have held additional emblems to communicate the god’s cosmic powers"
    https://harvardartmuseums.org/collec...467?position=7
    The Greek goddess Hecate portrayed in triplicate:


    A three-headed image of a Celtic deity found in Paris; interpreted as Mercury and now believed to represent Lugus or Ogmios:


    It seems to me that lots of altai culture really impacted upon the celts, ancient greece, south asia and china which have solid PIE evidences.

    According to Kozintsev

    "Unlike the previously outlined Scenario 1, which placed the IE,
    Uralic and Indo-Uralic homelands in the area east of the Caspian
    Sea, not far from the presumed common Eurasiatic homeland,
    Scenario 2 locates the latter in a much more easterly area
    between Lake Balkhash and the Altai. With regard to proto-IE,
    Scenario 2 is an extension of Scenario 1 back in time and space,
    adding a very long initial stretch of the westward expansion of
    Indo-Hittite across most of western Central Asia"

    "In line with johanna nichols’ early view (1997, 1998), i postulated the primary westward spread of ie from that locus, caused by the transition of one of the early farming groups to seminomadic pastoralism. the spread, however, likely occurred, not by two routes (the northern one to the western steppe, the southern to the near east),but only by the southern mountainous route along the elburz. an additional fact supporting this scenario is that, judging by reconstructed PIE terms for topographical features, the indo-hittites, at some stage of their history, lived in a mountainous terrain, moreover, that the mountain was perceived as a “mighty cliff reaching to the sky”; in addition, there was a sea or large lake nearby (gamkrelidze, ivanov 1995: 574–577; dybo 2013). as the authors conclude, this eliminates the steppe as a primary homeland."

    According to
    Igor V. Kovtun
    At the same time, the indirect influence ofthe Okunev cultural corpus on the formationof the proto-mythopoetic tradition of the earlyIndo-Aryans of the Seima-Turbino era, whichwas embodied in the quoted Vedic texts aftermore than a millennium, is not excluded.
    Last edited by johen; 14-04-22 at 02:50.

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    ^
    ^
    According to Igor V. Kovtun:

    This article analyzes the semantics of staffs with the sculptural representations of horse heads. Such staffs werediscovered in the steppe and forest-steppe Ob-Irtysh region; they date back to the beginning or the Þ rst half of the2nd millennium BC. Stylistically early and later objects are identi Þ ed. The study provides some parallels with Siberianethnographic data and the mythology of the Indo-European peoples. The Indo-Aryan semantic content of the Vedicmythological tradition is used for interpreting the meaning of the staffs. The article suggests that the semantic range of the “horse-headed” stone staffs and the Seima-Turbino pommel belongs to the worldview of the carriers of the Indo- Aryan dialects
    Originally Posted by johen

    Triangle patterns on steppe culture seems to be sun's ray:




    Typical Seima-Turbino hollow-core cast implements: a deep-socketed adze-axe from Rostovka cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p. 221; b socketed spear point with single process cast socket from Seima cemetery, adapted from Chernykh 1992, p 219

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_226578828

    Moreover horse seems to become a holy animal like a serpent since seima turbino culture:

    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).


    Traces of the devotion to the horse’s head on the part of the Indo-European peoples can be found in the archaic Roman ritual practice, Roman legends, Greek “feasts of the dead,” or Avar burial rituals; such a devotion has survived among the Byelorussians living in Polesie, etc.(Ivanov, 1989: 79, 80, 83, 84). During the “feasts of the dead” – ancient Greek wakes – the feast would take place in front of the horse’s head, which is represented on funerary reliefs (Sternberg, 1916: 183). At these ancient nekrodipnoses, the deceased appeared to be feasting in the midst of his family and servants; the representations of a horse’s head and a snake were present there (Freidenberg,1997: 62). E.E. Kuzmina interpreted them as expressing the notion “of the ability of the horse, especially its head,to revive the person” (Kuzmina, 1977: 42), whereas O.M. Freidenberg believed that “the semantics of thesnake and horse as the underground principles has long been revealed” (Freidenberg, 1997: 62).
    The Rig Veda has preserved the stable residue of the previous, more archaic semantic meaning of vajra . ThebIndo-Aryan concept of vajra goes back to the “horse-headed” insignia of the social and sacred leader similarbto the magic attribute functionally comparable to the tambourines or “horse” canes (among the Buryats) of the shamans. It is possible that the idea of the involvement of the horse’s head in the seat of supernatural knowledge and in implementation of the divine providence was formed at this stage. A “horse-headed” vajra in the hands of a person with high social status, not only clothed with authority of the leader, but also with the priestly prerogatives was the personification and substitution of such qualities of a supreme deity.
    https://www.academia.edu/31496604/_H..._4_52_p_95_105

    An exclusive group of Seima-Turbino bronze includes “ceremonial” (“prestigious”, “lord status”) weapon—daggers with carved handles. The knife from Rostovka stands out even in this category, being known as the most exquisite and mysterious item

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    ^
    ^
    see two horses, two twisted snakes and two snake pattern on each dagger above:

    A yoke of two horses is associated with the Indo-European concept of the Heavenly Twins, one of whom is mortal, represented among the Greeks by
    Castor and Pollux, the Dioscuri, who were known for horsemanship. [11]



    Bronze figurine of a biga from Roman Gaul; the chariot itself is missing the breastwork

    Procession of two-horses chariots on a loutrophoros, c. 690 BC

    "The biga (Latin, plural bigae) is the two-horse chariot as used in ancient Rome for sport, transportation, and ceremonies. Other animals may replace horses in art and occasionally for actual ceremonies. The term biga is also used by modern scholars for the similar chariots of other Indo-European cultures, particularly the two-horse chariot of the ancient Greeks and Celts. The driver of a biga is a bigarius.[1]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biga_(chariot)



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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In order to understand PIE culture it is very important of oracle bone in china where PIE reached.
    It seems steppe animal culture reached china also. Most of animal characters in oracle bone stand like human being. I think the oracle character creator has a same philosophy as Mayan people:




    "Animals are everywhere in the Popol Vuh. They leap and lick and crawl and bite and squawk and hoot and screech and howl. They are considered sacred, not as disembodied beings in some faraway place, but in their coexistence with humans, day by day in the forests.":




    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_291385927
    https://aeon.co/essays/belonging-amo...ayan-cosmology

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Mycenaean Diadem: 7


    7 snake head


    Seven-Headed Luther




    slavic tradition:

    https://www.boredpanda.com/slavic-wr...mpaign=organic
    Hebrew / Jewish Calendars

    https://www.crystalinks.com/calendarjewish.html


    "Circular diagrams showing the division of the day and of the week, from a Carolingian ms. (Clm 14456 fol. 71r) of St. Emmeram Abbey. The week is divided into seven days, and each day into 24 hours, 96 puncta (quarter-hours), 240 minuta (tenths of an hour) and 960"


    "Schematic comparison of the ordering of the classical planets (arranged in a circle) and the sequence of days in the week (forming a {7/3} heptagram within the circle)."

    Originally Posted by johen
    .
    First One of Quijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached: 7


    symbol of Hallstatt:7


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg

    7 Segments:



    The Greek goddess Hecate portrayed in triplicate:



    -

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    CIRCLE RING (SUN or SNAKE) culture migration:
    lake baikal:

    Lake baikal:


    "According to the latest research, Stone Age hunter-gatherers in northeast Europe expertly crafted slate friendship rings some 6,000 years ago. Some of these friendship ring ornaments were then deliberately broken into fragments, many of which were further fashioned into pendants. And all of this suggests these communities were part of a regional trade network, which the latest study results also confirm"





    "Two large intact Stone Age friendship rings discovered in an early 4th millennium BC Finnish hunter-gatherer burial, together with the five flint projectile points. (M. Miettinen 1988 / Finnish Heritage Agency)"
    "Stone Age friendship rings found in Finland, made from slate in Russia, broken or refashioned into pendants. Source: Marja Ahola / University of Helsinki"
    HTTPS://WWW.ANCIENT-ORIGINS.NET/NEWS...-RINGS-0016696

    The scandinavia and altai had a cultural connection since mesolithic age:

    https://www.fastcompany.com/3025947/...lds-first-skis

    "We were surprised to discover that Steppe Maykop individuals from the eastern desert635steppes harboured a distinctive ancestry component that relates them to Upper636Palaeolithic Siberian individuals (AG3, MA1) and Native Americans. This is637exemplified by the more commonly East Asian features such as the derived EDAR638allele, which has also been observed in EHG from Karelia and Scandinavian hunter-639gatherers (SHG)."

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    triangle and diamond shape patterns:

    seima turbino



    Hallstatt: The owner seems to know the concept of 7 days a week and 12 month a year (12 triangles in center) as mentioned before.


    In Ukraine:

    https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/tr...y-8167441.html
    In Ukraine:
    Symbols of the sun on Easter eggs
    https://traditions.in.ua/zvychai-ta-obriady/obriadova-symvolika/315-ornament-pysanky

    eyelid and ring:


    In baikal:


    And


    seima turbino rings:


    And celtic rings and rings

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    ancient greek vs ancient Xinjiang


    "called the kangjiashimenji petroglyphs, these images of an ancient fertility ritual were discovered roughly 25 years ago by chinese archeologist wang binghua in the western xinjiang province. credit: jeannine davis-kimball/center for the study of eurasian nomads"

    "the faces appear caucasian or western and the images mirror some discovered 1,600 miles away in ukraine."
    another inverted triangle torso of america indian:



    Brothers symbolize two people



    it symbolizes death
    https://thoughtcatalog.com/daniella-...rican-symbols/

    so ancient people looks like this:

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    triangle(horse mane) and diamond (snake) pattern:

    In Botai



    In Seima turbino





    same pattern of triangle and two snakes in dagger:

    Bronze swords typical of the Central European Bronze Age: Apa deposit (after H. Müller-Karpe)
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_256254040
    Last edited by johen; 02-07-22 at 23:03.

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    ^
    ^

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    7 point star(?) symbol of Hallstatt: triangle and diamnond patttern also


    7 point star(?) symbol (2-1 below) of Qijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached:

    sanauli triangle sun pattern on wheel:


    another Qijia culture mirror with the same triangle patterns:



    Apa sword triangle sun patterns :

    https://www.academia.edu/30182036/Cr...dic_Bronze_Age




    “In arguing that a military force from the Volga-Ural forest steppe came to Greece at the end of the MH period Penner relied on the Totenritual performed in both regions (aspects of the construction of the grave, and the selection of grave goods) and on three artifacts that were attested in both places, appearing first in the southern Urals and then in the Shaft Graves at Mycenae. These three artifacts were the organic disk cheekpiece (the Scheibenknebel), the wave ornamentation (Wellenband) on weapons and other objects, and the forged spearhead with slit socket. In addition, Penner began her argument with a comparison of the gold disks from Grave Circle A and the seven bronze disks found in 1973 in Grave 3 of Kurgan 2 at Novo-Jabalakly, in the Republic of Bashkortostan. This site is far to the northeast of the Caspian, and not far from the southern Urals. The similarities in decoration of the disks are remarkable, especially the curvilinear swastika or the “running S.” Penner notes, however, that the same design appears on a disk found at Solomenka, in the foothills north of the Caucasus and near the headwaters of the Kuban river. Solomenka is more than 2000 km southwest of Novo-Jabalakly, and that is a reminder of how dependent our theories are on the vagaries of archaeological finds. It is possible that the “running S” was in vogue even to the west of Solomenka, and it is almost certain that it was in vogue at places in the vast steppe that lay between Novo-Jabalakly and Solomenka. The Wellenband decoration on cheekpieces has been found in three places: Greece, the Carpathian basin and the steppe. On the steppe, as Penner shows, as many have been found along the upper Don as along the upper Volga and Ural. The same is true of the forged, or slit-socketed, spearhead and the Scheibenknebel. Although the organic disk cheekpieces that have been found in Greece and the Carpathian basin are paralleled along the southern Urals, they are also paralleled—as Penner shows—along the upper Don and even by specimens found as far to the west as Trakhtemyriv, on the middle Dnieper. A survey slightly more recent than Penner’s concluded that find-spots of the organic disk cheekpiece are in fact most numerous in the forest steppe between the Volga and the Don. Penner’s maps also show that forged spearheads have been found not only in the Sintashta-Petrovka region but also at sites on the upper Don, at one on the lower Dnieper, and at one on the left bank of the Kuban.” (p.354-356)"

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    ^
    ^
    This horse-drawn chariot is ·a technically sophisticated. artifact requiring special skills and resources for its construction, use, and maintenance. Two specific features of Anyang chariots are the large number of wheel spokes (from eighteen to twenty-six. as compared with four, six, or eight in the Near East) and the mounting of the axle not at the rear edge of the box, but midway between front and back. In western Asia both features are known only from mid second-millennium chariots buried at Lchashen in the Caucasus, and for the moment these are the closest relatives of Anyang chariots, indicating a strong influence from those areas.
    in Lchashenhttps://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places/lchashen-0011133


    "An article by Damgaard (2018) dedicated to the genetic study of ancient inhabitants of the Eurasian steppes published the ancient DNA of two people from Lchashen burials. Samples included Y-DNA I2a2b-L596 and Mitochondrial DNA HV0a and J1b1a."

    In china bronze:

    "meanders are common decorative elements in greek and roman art. in ancient greece they appear in many architectural friezes, and in bands on the pottery of ancient greece from the geometric period onwards. the design is common to the present-day in classicizing architecture. the meander is a fundamental design motif in regions far from a hellenic orbit: labyrinthine meanders ("thunder" pattern[3]) appear in bands and as infill on shang bronzes, and many traditional buildings in and around china still bear geometric designs almost identical to meanders"





    "The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]"

    seima turbino migration:


    "Originally Posted by jormung
    The problem of loanwords from indoeuropean to old chinese is very old and it is discussed in any good book about lndoeuropean linguistics.
    But we can find the discussion in several papers, for example in "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", by Alexander Lubolsky, or
    "Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age" by Tsung-tung Chang
    * dog, hound (ie: *kun-k, old ch: *huan(g),*khuen )
    * goose (ie: *ghans, old ch:*gans)
    * pork (ie: *pork, old ch:* pog)
    * horse (ie: *mork, old ch:*mog )
    * cow (ie: *gwhou , old ch: *gou )
    and several other as milk, chariot, ...."

    celtic mark in china bronze"

    china bronze around 1,100bc

    another one:
    http://www.jiaxiangwang.com/arch/ima...n-duanjian.jpg




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