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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post


    1. About 150 years ago, american scholar already knew PIE migration above:

    The European branch of the Aryans crossed the Urals and the Volga about 2500 B. c, and occupied southern Russia till 1500 B. c. They brought into Europe a knowledge of gold, silver, and bronze, as well as the plow and the loom. In process of time they ramified into Thraco-Hlyro-Ligures, Greco-Italo- Kelts, and Slavo-Germans.
    2. who crossed the Urals? arsnic bronze sintashta people or tin bronze seima turbino?



    3. PIE moved further East WITH EVIDENCE:

    seima turbino migration:

    The model suggested by L.S. Klein is themost consistent, it takes into accountarchaeological material of theChemurchek culture (EasternTurkestan), which was discovered andstudied by Dr. A. A. Kovaliov [2004;2011; 2012a;b]. It was noted that theChemurchek materials are rather similarto the Elunino materials localized in theAltai Mountains and to the monumentsdiscovered in the north-east part ofKazakhstan [Grushin 2012; Merz, 2007;2010]. These materials are considered asan early step in the formation of SeimaTurbino metallurgical tradition, which inits turn influenced the formation of theYin-Shang industry in China [Kovaliov,2012a: 53-55; Novozhenov, 2012a;c].
    "Originally Posted by jormung
    The problem of loanwords from indoeuropean to old chinese is very old and it is discussed in any good book about lndoeuropean linguistics.
    But we can find the discussion in several papers, for example in "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", by Alexander Lubolsky, or
    "Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age" by Tsung-tung Chang
    * dog, hound (ie: *kun-k, old ch: *huan(g),*khuen )
    * goose (ie: *ghans, old ch:*gans)
    * pork (ie: *pork, old ch:* pog)
    * horse (ie: *mork, old ch:*mog )
    * cow (ie: *gwhou , old ch: *gou )
    and several other as milk, chariot, ...."

    The offspring of the first “settlers” founded new line of development in the north of Central Asia. In the area between the rivers Ob and Irtysh, this line of development is represented by the materials of EluninoOdinovsk type and Seima-Turbino circle. Cultural heritage of this line together with its outstanding metallurgical traditions were later incorporated into the new societies of Andronovo and Karasuk that emerged there. Presumably, the population of Central Plains of China borrowed terms related to chariot-riding from the Tocharians through the contacts with one of the two groups mentioned above (this hypothetical scenario implies that they obtained knowledge about prodicing and riding quadriga through contact with Early Andronovo clans). The cultural identity of the “Seima-Turbino Tocharians” existed for a very long time as part of the cultural association, which consisted of many related groups. It seems that they managed to preserve their identity due to technological advancement and sacred status of blacksmithing actities. The descendants of other production groups exploited other ecological niches and developed their own lines, keeping their potential “IndoIranian” or “Indo-Aryan” identity. As a result of these processes, a new center of cultural genesis emerged in the UralKazakh steppes. This center became the core of the new culture, which developed innovations in social structure, animal husbandry, weaponry, and wheeled transport (chariot riding) and formed its own means both for internal and external communications.


    that time. Later this territory located in the vast Saryarka peneplain, the Tarbagatay Mountains, Ob-Irtysh interfluve, and plain areas of the Southern Urals became the ancestral homeland of IEs; the identities of IIrs, Indo-Aryans, and of the Tocharian were formed there. The whidespread cross-breeding of IEs, which occurred through female line as a result of contacts in the process of development of new territories, was essential for formation of their cultural identity. However, with the expansion of the range of new pastures, the natural spreading of cattle-breading groups inevitably met resistance from the indigenous population. The most notable of the conflicts happened when these grops faced forest-steppe clans on Seima-Turbino territory. It was conflict between two communication systems; intense phase of communication where one side used chariots and the other was armed with socketed weapons. Very soon the nature of these relationships became synthetic, which was clearly manifested by mutual borrowing of advanced technological skills. Anyway, chariots, socketed weapons of SeimaTurbino type, and tin casting technology were actively used by representatives of Early Andronovo and later Karasuk societies. These set of innovations rapidly spread to all contact areas, where steppe clans interacted with ancient sedentary civilizations, and contributed to formation of Turanian, Chinese, Balkanian, and Iranian channels of communication [see: Novozhenov, 2012b:114-145; 2012d: 44-67; 2013: 100-117; 2013a; 2014a:18-267].


    4. PIE culture already land on mesomaerica:



    "The vajra in South American cultures

    In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

    5. so Kozintsev's opinion is plausible.


    "Unlike the previously outlined Scenario 1, which placed the IE,
    Uralic and Indo-Uralic homelands in the area east of the Caspian
    Sea, not far from the presumed common Eurasiatic homeland,
    Scenario 2 locates the latter in a much more easterly area
    between Lake Balkhash and the Altai. With regard to proto-IE,
    Scenario 2 is an extension of Scenario 1 back in time and space,
    adding a very long initial stretch of the westward expansion of
    Indo-Hittite across most of western Central Asia"

    "In line with johanna nichols’ early view (1997, 1998), i postulated the primary westward spread of ie from that locus, caused by the transition of one of the early farming groups to seminomadic pastoralism. the spread, however, likely occurred, not by two routes (the northern one to the western steppe, the southern to the near east),but only by the southern mountainous route along the elburz. an additional fact supporting this scenario is that, judging by reconstructed PIE terms for topographical features, the indo-hittites, at some stage of their history, lived in a mountainous terrain, moreover, that the mountain was perceived as a “mighty cliff reaching to the sky”; in addition, there was a sea or large lake nearby (gamkrelidze, ivanov 1995: 574–577; dybo 2013). as the authors conclude, this eliminates the steppe as a primary homeland."

    According to
    Igor V. Kovtun
    At the same time, the indirect influence ofthe Okunev cultural corpus on the formationof the proto-mythopoetic tradition of the earlyIndo-Aryans of the Seima-Turbino era, whichwas embodied in the quoted Vedic texts aftermore than a millennium, is not excluded.

    6. However,
    Lecture by Prof. David Reich - "The Genetic History of the Southern Arc: A Bridge between West Asia & Europe"
    "The impermeability of Anatolia to exogenous migration contrasts with our finding that the Yamnaya had two distinct gene flows, both from West Asia, suggesting that the Indo-Anatolian language family originated in the eastern wing of the Southern Arc and that the steppe served only as a secondary staging area of Indo-European language dispersal."
    Last edited by johen; 21-07-22 at 02:55.

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    ^
    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Macro-regional interconnections among ancient hunter-gatherers of the Cis-Baikal, Eastern Siberia
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4061821501201X



    celtic Head motif stick top, II bc:


    India sinauli Y crown (up) and Y sword (2,000 -1,500bc)

    bronze age at sweden:
    Lur-blowers can be seen in rock carvings, like this example from Kalleby in Bohuslän, west Sweden.

    https://www.academia.edu/31105712/Th...g_and_Rock_art
    .




    https://www.academia.edu/31105712/The_Stranger_King_and_Rock_art
    Last edited by johen; 11-08-22 at 22:25.

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    ^
    ^
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    sanauli triangle sun pattern on wheel:


    another Qijia culture(mirror) of seima turbino to reach:



    Apa sword triangle sun patterns :

    https://www.academia.edu/30182036/Cr...dic_Bronze_Age
    The Shropshire bulla: Bronze Age beauty and a mystery from Manchester:


    "Have you seen this bulla? Illustrations in a 1915 article by J J Phelps show that the missing Irwell bulla was strikingly similar to the newly found example, but not the same object. (IMAGE: Drawing reproduced courtesy of Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society)"
    https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/f...manchester.htm

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    http://worldarchaeology.org/publicat.../Calendars.pdf


    ^ Bronze 'drums' from Denmark and Hungary


    ^ Nuragic figurine from Sardinia
    Last edited by Philjames100; 13-08-22 at 14:56.

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    Lattoon disc, Ireland, Bronze Age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post


    Lattoon disc, Ireland, Bronze Age
    Thanks, The spiral and triangle patterns seems to be connected to bronze mirror in Korea Iron age.


    Thru steppe:








    1Local women help the bride, Sellma Demirovic, to get dressed in traditional clothes for a typical wedding in Donje Ljubinje, a predominantly ethnic Bosniak village of some 3,000 residents located in the Shar Mountains on the border between Kosovo and North Macedonia.
    - mycenaean mask replica


    korea traditional mask and wedding culture



    Poulnabrone dolmen, the Burren, County Clare, Ireland
    Dolmen at Ganghwa Island, South Korea

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    2-4 bronze mirror in shang china where Seima and Karasuk reached:


    Die Sonnenscheibe von Moordorf, nordic bronze age:

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    seima turbino's effects on china bronze age, which reminds me of Mongol:


    figure 15: bronze seima-turbino-style artifacts and bronze and jade artifacts from the yin ruins(shang), anyang city.
    https://www.academia.edu/45055541/Se...roto_Silk_Road

    seima hair style:
    http://www.ra.iaran.ru/wp-content/up...tun-1-2014.jpg

    hairstyle and kneeling culture in shang china :


    https://daydaynews.cc/en/history/76772.html

    OLMEC:
    "The Bronze Age finding from Grevensvænge near Næstved, reproduced by Marcus Schnabel. In the year 1700 at Grevensvænge on Sjælland a small bronze figure was found that imagined a twin pair with horned helmets and axes in their hands. However, the pair was separated and one ax-bearing figure was lost, most likely during the bombardment of Copenhagen in 1807. However, the Norwegian priest Marcus Schnabel had made a drawing of the finding."

    Bottom left: Female figure of bronze found at Fårdal near Viborg. She "offers her breast" and is dressed in the same type of cord skirt as the Egtved girl - and nothing else.
    https://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dk-historie9.htm

    neolithic hongshan:


    shang oracle bone script of 母 (mother)


    shang:




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    ^
    I don't know what does DNA and language of Yamna/CWC/BB/Catacomb mean to modern european. As I posted above, around 1,600Bc the wheels of chariots widespread in europe are enough to trample local people's DNA and language. People think that new intruder seems to be related to sintashata, however, that possibility might be extremely low. The intruder left footprints below:

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post




    https://www.academia.edu/31105712/The_Stranger_King_and_Rock_art
    Ladakh india: It seems to me that altai "Sky" is finally found in India.
    http://indpaedia.com/ind/index.php/Rock_Art:_Ladakh
    https://www.sahapedia.org/early-reco...century-ladakh



    america shaman:


    "The Importance of the Okunev Culture

    In the northern fringes of the steppe belt, I stressed the extreme importance of the Okunev Culture which had on the one hand connections with the Far East and, on the other, definite links with the south of Central Asia.
    Meanwhile I discovered a group of petroglyphs in the Indus Valley, near Chilas, that is connected with the engravings of the Okunev Culture by the main motifs and stylistic peculiarities. In addition to one report on my findings (Jettmar 1982: 298-302), others are forthcoming. It is not improbable that during the third and early second millemmia B.C. there were relations over thousands of kilometers, perhaps due to migrations of cattle-keeping Early Nomads. Other connections leading in the same direction were observed by Stacul (1977:251-252) and the Allchins (1982:111-116)."
    Last edited by johen; 13-08-22 at 21:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    seima turbino shaman:




    "Shijiahe Culture (2500-2200 BC), 10.3cm tall in ancient china
    It is so far the only piece of its kind in the world. None of the mystical figures had legs except for this one. Wearing a flat-topped hat and two earrings, with a big nose and hands crossed at the chest, the solemn-looking figure is believed to be a wizard conducting a religious rite."

    Oracle bone inscriptions with the character 人 (which means "human").
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_347632383

    - It seems to me that even pig was treated like human according to animal culture tradition(?):

    Oracle bone inscriptions with the character (which means "pig")


    stand like human:
    http://qiyuan.chaziwang.com/pic/ziyuanimg/E4BAA5.png

    - However, some people were not treated as human being:

    abstract: records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.
    abstract: records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.
    Last edited by johen; 14-08-22 at 23:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    mythological creature in china bronze, Taotie:
    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/specia...bce_bronze.htm
    https://www.squinchmag.com/gallery-5...ese-bronze-age

    Mayan deity Itzamna:
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MA_D283_The_serpent-bird_from_a_carved_wooden_panel_at_Tikal.jpg

    china:

    "A Chinese miniature jade mask. 2nd millennium BCE"

    more precisely:
    http://wenhui.whb.cn/u/cms/www/201803/141722546dak.jpg

    mesoamerica:



    "Ai Apaec or Aia Paec was the terrible god who thirsty for blood demanded human sacrifices. The Cie-quich and the Alaec offered young warriors in beautiful temples such as Huaca de la Luna, Huaca el Brujo, Huaca Pañanmarca and Huaca Rajada. His most famous image was discovered in 1990 by Peruvian archaeologist Daniel Morales, in Huaca de la Luna (Trujillo). He has an anthropomorphic face, feline mouth and sea waves or tentacles that surround his head. In other representations he appears with a baton or wielding a sharp Tumi, always with a fierce, scary face. He was worshiped as the creator and protector god of the Moche world. He was the provider of water, food and warrior triumphs"

    https://www.rankuzz.com/en/entertainment/inca-gods-360392.html
    https://www.worldhistory.org/image/6781/chinese-jade-mask/
    http://wenhui.whb.cn/zhuzhan/xinwen/...14/192178.html

    Ancient records preserved in an old monastery near the Mongolian border describe the Xian pyramid.
    The structure was said to measure 1,000 feet in height which made it the highest pyramid in the world (the Great Pyramid of Egypt is 450 feet in height).

    According to the monastic documents the pyramid was already extremely old when the records were made.
    In the valleys surrounding the Xian pyramid were dozens of other pyramids, some rising to an elevation almost as great.
    Surviving traces of original pigments show that the Xian pyramid was painted with different colours on each on its four flanks.
    The east side was bluish grey, with white facing the west, black on the north, and red on the south.

    It should be noted that other ancient monuments such as the Maya, Aztecs, and many Indian tribes of North America associated the four cardinal directions with different colours.

    In 1994, archaeologists discovered several pyramids near the Wei River, north of Xian. Hausdorf estimates there may be as many 90 to 100 pyramids in China, including the White Pyramid which is the highest of them all. All of them are mostly unheard of in the Western world.


    https://www.ancient-origins.net/unex...id-xian-002470
    Last edited by johen; 23-08-22 at 21:12.

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    The Genetic Perspective on the Sejma-Turbino Transcultural Phenomenon and the Spread of the Uralic Languages

    Ainash Childebayeva, Fabian Fricke, Sergej Kuzminykh, Wolfgang Haak:


    The Sejma-Turbino (ST) “transcultural” phenomenon is associated with Bronze Age sites throughout Eurasia dating to the time period between the 22nd to 17th centuries BCE. ST objects are found across the Eurasian continent, spreading from Finland to Mongolia, and the cultural complex is characterized by metal objects that have a unique petal shaped side piece. The origin of the ST phenomenon has not been determined. However, based on the presence of metals, such as tin and copper in ST objects, Altay and Sayan mountains have been hypothesized. No ST associated settlements are known, and the only distinguishing characteristic of the culture is the presence of high-quality metal objects. The spread of Uralic protolanguage is hypothesized to have occurred through the ST network, which is suggested by the time of disintegration of Proto-Uralic.

    Here, we are presenting genomic data from nine individuals, eight males and one female, from the ST associated site Rostovka located on the river Om, 15km away from Omsk, Russia, and excavated in 1966-1969. Elaborate artifacts found at the site made it famous among the archaeologists and the scientific community in general. The majority of the graves found at the Rostovka burial site contain bronze ST objects, as well as stone molds for casting bronze objects, stone spearheads and armory. Based on the genome-wide SNP data, we found that the Rostovka individuals vary widely with regards to their genetic profile, ranging between the ancestry maximized in North Siberians and the local Sintashta-associated individuals, mirroring the geographic spread of the ST phenomenon. The presence of the N-L392 Y-haplogroup in the sample further supports the link between ST and the spread of the Uralic languages. This is the first study to report genetic data for individuals associated with the ST trans-cultural phenomenon and its potential link to the spread of Uralic languages across the Eurasian forest steppe.

    https://cifu13.univie.ac.at/programm...rdisciplinary/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The Genetic Perspective on the Sejma-Turbino Transcultural Phenomenon and the Spread of the Uralic Languages

    Based on the genome-wide SNP data, we found that the Rostovka individuals vary widely with regards to their genetic profile, ranging between the ancestry maximized in North Siberians and the local Sintashta-associated individuals, mirroring the geographic spread of the ST phenomenon. The presence of the N-L392 Y-haplogroup in the sample further supports the link between ST and the spread of the Uralic languages.
    Thanks,

    1. Indo-Uralic signal?

    2. Did they share same mt DNA with sintashata people? I remembered that Q/N okunevo people had mtDNA T like andronovo, unlike afanasievo.
    Actually I think altai, N Hongshan, N/Q neolithic Baikal, Q Mesoamerica, Q/N/O china bronze and Hindu have same culture. What kind of relationship was between sintashta and ST? Russia to mongol or Russia to Ukraine? ST bombarded Abashevo culture, however, scholars thought Abashevo continued to go their journey. Sintahsta was never touched by ST. Sintashta was encircled by ST. Who were WSHG outlier Z2103, R1a and Q in sintashta? With high mobile chariots sintashta territory is too small. Moreover, they moved only one way to altai with the chariot. Petrovka has tin weapon. Problem is where they mined the tin?

    3. Long time ago only 1 Q was found in ST Elunin culture of which dagger type was found in Qijia, shimao pyramid and erlitou culture in china bronze.

    4. Rostovka culture was very important as I quoted before. They have cremation culture and lord-status dagger. I think Apa sword is the same meaning. Lord appeared in Greek, India and china bronze. Strange thing is that kind of artifact has not found in sintashta and andronovo.

    5. Any way spoka burial type is different. It is same as America indian, neolithic Baikal, yamna, afanasievo, kumsay and Scythian.

    "The dagger was discovered in tumulus No. 2, where a 10-centimeter coaly layer covered bone remains of a 9- or 10-year-old boy burnt in a special “crematorium”. In consistence with the necropolis funeral rites, the dagger was stuck into the floor of the bone chamber and covered with crane fragments left after cremation. The tomb doesn’t look too rich, given the number and composition of funerary gifts, but such highly prestigious object as a knife with carved finial indicates that the boy belonged to the upper class of Seima-Tubino society. In the social structure of the latter, the main roles were played by nomadic warriors and bronze casters, who possessed the most sophisticated technologies of the time. In the mid-2nd millennium BC, they made a huge forced march from Xinjiang in the east to the lower reach of Dniester in the west, leaving only burial sites and memorial altars behind them. The hallmark of such altars were glorious bronze weapons: celts, hefty spearheads, daggers, etc
    An exclusive group of Seima-Turbino bronze includes “ceremonial” (“prestigious”, “lord status”) weapon—daggers with carved handles. The knife from Rostovka stands out even in this category, being known as the most exquisite and mysterious item. It consists of two separately cast parts: a single-edged blade and a handle crowned with an absolutely unique composition of a horse and a skier. The statuary is made by lost-wax casting and “soldered” to the blade with molten metal. A man with high Mongoloid cheekbones is standing on short skis, tied to a horse with a rein. The horse has a massive head, short legs and an erect mane, resembling those of extinct tarpans or still existing Przewalski’s horses.[COLOR=rgb(var(--color_0))] The composition is interpreted based on two alternative hypotheses. One of them admits skiers really moved around by being pulled behind galloping horses back in the Bronze Age. However, the static figure of the horse doesn’t fit in this conception. Moreover, the skier seems to be rather holding back the horse he has just caught than following it, as judged by the specific angle of his body and the position of the skis. More preference is given to the version claiming the scene on the handle of the unique knife has a mythic or ritual nature. For instance, it could be a motive of a cultural hero catching a horse. The plot dates back to the era of horse domestication and has been variously preserved in myths of many peoples of the world."

    "An exclusive group of Seima-Turbino bronze includes “ceremonial” (“prestigious”, “lord status”) weapon—daggers with carved handles. The knife from Rostovka stands out even in this category, being known as the most exquisite and mysterious item. It consists of two separately cast parts: a single-edged blade and a handle crowned with an absolutely unique composition of a horse and a skier."

    Rice. 46. ​​Rostov burial ground.

    Rice. 47. Burial ground Sopka
    https://arheologija.ru/pamyatniki-seyminsko-turbinskogo-tipa-v-evrazii/


    https://www.youlinmagazine.com/artic...-past/MTgwNA==

    In shimao pyramid, 1st is celtic type, middle one is Elunin type and last one Rovska type.




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    ST migration from EAST vs Indoeuropean GENETIC migration to south asia from WEST:



    Chariot and Celt migration vs yamnaya GENETIC migration to BALKAN:







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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Seima Turbino:
    Bronze dagger (left) and bronze pommel (right).

    same pattern of triangle and two snakes in dagger:

    Bronze swords typical of the Central European Bronze Age: Apa deposit (after H. Müller-Karpe)
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig6_256254040
    thunderbolt lord appeared late bronze age Karashamb (now with so many yDNA I )?


    A dagger of the Late Bronze Age, buttons of a mail (14th-13th century B.C.) About 7-8 tombs of warriors with relative military property were discovered in Karashamb.




    Bronze hairpin of the Late Bronze Age; beads bracelet (14th-13th century B.C.)

    https://www.panarmenian.net/eng/details/220791/

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    ^
    ^
    Ring (circle culture) arrived in Armenia late bronze age? (Arnold terminator?)


    Trepanation in the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age in Armenia:

    Trepanations in ancient Armenia: 1. Bakheri chala: bur. 18, 2. Bover: bur. 7, 3. Tekhut: bur. 1, 4. Barcryal: bur. 9, 5. Lchashen: bur. 83, 6. Karmir: bur. 1, 7. Artsvakar: bur. 5, 8. Bakheri chala: bur. 22, 9. Shirakavan I: bur. 9, 10. Lchashen: bur. 193/6.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...18442X16300567

    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In Ukraine:
    Symbols of the sun on Easter eggs
    https://traditions.in.ua/zvychai-ta-obriady/obriadova-symvolika/315-ornament-pysanky

    eyelid and ring:


    In baikal:


    And


    seima turbino rings:


    And celtic rings and rings

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    ^
    ^
    Circle heaven Square earth culture in armenia late bronze?
    CAPTION

    Main view of the Bronze Age Karashamb Necropolis. The study includes 26 individuals from the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages of this site https://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/947387

    Circle B:




    2 Plan of Grave Circle B (After Dickinson 1977, fi g. 7).

    Graves in East Baikal[edit]

    [ "Thousands of graves can now be seen in the southern Baikal area. In some cases they form a cemetery, with a clear plan and a strict order. For example, at lake Balzino about a hundred graves formed circles and rectangles. They are usually located at higher elevation, exposed to sun. Monumental burials mark greatness of the people who once lived there. They became an integral part of the East Baikal steppes cultural and historical landscape."]


    stone mound with embedded graves, typical Hongshan tomb structure
    http://hongshanren.com/artifacts


    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    looks like all ANE people had same philosophy of circle sky and square earth:

    afanasievo:

    okunevo:
    Photo courtesy of expedition members



    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/



    Section and plan of the barrow from the cemetery of Kamyshevkha near Bakhmut, lower Donets basin.
    https://www.donsmaps.com/rossosh.html

    Maya also:

    https://www.mayaarchaeologist.co.uk/school-resources/maya-world/maya-gods-and-goddesses/
    Last edited by johen; 01-09-22 at 21:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ladakh india
    http://indpaedia.com/ind/index.php/Rock_Art:_Ladakh
    https://www.sahapedia.org/early-reco...century-ladakh



    america shaman:


    "The Importance of the Okunev Culture

    In the northern fringes of the steppe belt, I stressed the extreme importance of the Okunev Culture which had on the one hand connections with the Far East and, on the other, definite links with the south of Central Asia.
    Meanwhile I discovered a group of petroglyphs in the Indus Valley, near Chilas, that is connected with the engravings of the Okunev Culture by the main motifs and stylistic peculiarities. In addition to one report on my findings (Jettmar 1982: 298-302), others are forthcoming. It is not improbable that during the third and early second millemmia B.C. there were relations over thousands of kilometers, perhaps due to migrations of cattle-keeping Early Nomads. Other connections leading in the same direction were observed by Stacul (1977:251-252) and the Allchins (1982:111-116)."
    Rock artist also migrated to Armenia:





    "THE IMPACT OF ANCIENT ARMENIAN TRADITIONS AND WORLDVIEW ON THE COGNITIVE CORE OF NORDIC CULTURE"
    http://www.iatp.am/vahanyan/articles/scandinavia-en.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    lake baikal


    bronze age at sweden:
    Lur-blowers can be seen in rock carvings, like this example from Kalleby in Bohuslän, west Sweden.

    https://www.academia.edu/31105712/Th...g_and_Rock_art
    .




    https://www.academia.edu/31105712/The_Stranger_King_and_Rock_art
    Last edited by johen; 03-09-22 at 03:06.

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    ^
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    I-Y16649 found in Trialeti at Armenia mid-bronze age:

    ["
    a cauldron found in Trialeti is nearly identical to the one from Shaft Grave 4 of Mycenae in Greece."]





    Distribution of the Scythian bronze cauldrons in the Northern Black Sea region;




    1 -cauldron from Rostov-on-Don (drawing by Vladimir Guguev); 2 -cauldron from Oktyabr'skoe; 3-4 -cauldron fragments from Mokryy Chaltyr' (drawing by Vladimir Guguev); 5-6 -cauldron from Sadovyy: Sarmatians in the Northeastern Azov Sea Region



    HUN




    Phrygian period.
    Click on the pictures for larger images.


    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344879874_Tamgas_and_tamga-like_signs_from_Tanais
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_344668558
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...8348CF3C230040
    https://www.phrygianmonuments.com/gordion/
    Last edited by johen; 04-09-22 at 03:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ^
    ^

    Rock artist also migrated to Armenia:





    south asia

    albanian symbol


    Ancient and unchanged tattoo Mithriac motifs and symbolism of the Yezidi Kurds …and therefore, Ancient Hurrians:
    The history of the Kurdish people is as complex as it is ancient. By the middle of the 2nd millennium B.C., the culture and society of Kurdistan appear to have been unified under the Hurrians, a people who spoke a language belonging to the Caucasian family distantly related to modern Georgian and Laz. The fundamental legacy of the ancient Hurrians to the contemporary culture of the Kurds is manifest elementally in their religion, mythology, martial arts, genetics, and tattoos. But other religions left their mark on the tattoo traditions of the Yezidi Kurds, including the Aryans who extinguished the last Hurrian states in the Zagros-Taurus mountain regions by 850 B.C.Today, the Yezidi Kurds comprise less than five percent of the entire Kurdish population, but their tattooing traditions remain, as do many of their religious ceremonies like the Jam. Held at the sacred shrine in modern Lalish, Iraq, Jam coincides with the great Aryan festival of Mithrakan which celebrated the act of world creation by the sun god Mithras. The earliest known reference to Mithras dates to the 14th century B.C. and according to clay tablets excavated on the Anatolian plateau, he was worshipped for over two-thousand years. The Roman Emperor Commodus (180-192 A.D.) even brought “the cult of light” to his empire and afterwards Roman emperors more and more identified themselves with the Unconquered Sun, took the title of “Invictus” and wore a crown with sun rays.According to Izady, Kurdish men and women still wear tattoos (kutra’i in Kurdish) associated with Mithras. Some of the motifs are found adorning the outer walls of the Yezidi shrine at Lalish:The symbol combining a dog, a serpent hole, and the sun disc used by Yezidi women is a fascinating reminder of this combination in ancient Mithraic religious sculptures (the sun god Mithras killing the bull of heaven, from whose blood springs a serpent and a dog, the symbols of balancing forces of good and evil).Yezidi men’s hand tattoos from Iraq, ca.1930.Field remarked that the Yezidis tattooed most frequently a comb design, called misht or meshed, and a rayed circle or disc with a varying number of rays and sometimes a circular branded scar called kawi in the center. Westermark illustrates a related tattoo motif in Morocco which was called mechta, “comb,” very similar to the etymology of the Kurdish word misht, that resembles the carding comb tattoos of the Kabyle and Chaouian Berbers of Algeria. Cola Alberich reported that rayed crosses tattooed in Morocco were “expressions of the solar cult.” Thus, it seems that comb tattoos in Iraq were perhaps in some way related to solar motifs, because we know that iron carding combs and tattoos were used as fire symbols in North Africa.
    As such, we see in the dominant motifs of Kurdish tattooing the value of a type of “holy formula” that Izady says “cannot be altered without losing its power. These markings are of considerable antiquity, and are ‘living’ examples of many ancient motifs preserved in this way.” In this vein, rayed semicircles enclosing a star and two dots were said by some Yezidi women to ward off the evil eye, while other tattoos were therapeutic used to cure rheumatism and headaches because of their perceived healing properties. It should be noted that tribal peoples in Iran also practiced these forms of medicinal tattooing.
    Yet other authorities have argued that because the sun brought forth the new growth of plants, coinciding in a sense with animals giving birth to their young each spring, the heliolatrous significance of the tattooed cross, as a solar symbol, connoted procreation and ultimately served as a fertility mark; whereas the swastika, present in tattoo traditions of the Kurds, Berbers and indigenous groups in India, metamorphosed into a related form (via spirals, concentric circles, and rosettes). However, the sun ideograph may have also represented deified fire symbolizing properties of purification.
    Source: Tattooing in North Africa, The Middle East and Balkans By Lars Krutak


    Kurdish women’s tattoo designs from Iraq, ca. 1930.


    Yezidi women’s ankle tattoos from Iraq, ca. 1930.
    https://japanesemythology.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/ancient-and-unchanged-tattoo-mithriac-motifs-and-symbolism-of-the-yezidi-kurds-and-therefore-ancient-hurrians/

    first one is chinese oracle bone script of 東 (means "East" or "the place of sun to rise")

    sun and sun's ray


    croatian tatoo






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    ^
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    Later the symbol for ”man, I, one” was developed to these:

    ["which are the praying men. And three symbols of AR (Sun God) arose: Lion, Eagle and Aris (Aries), all three begin in Armenian with letters “ar”. From that time “three” came to us as a sacred figure and sign “w” became the first letter of Armenian Alphabet (letter “a”). "] ---> ["Anu, (Akkadian), Sumerian An, Mesopotamian sky god and a member of the triad of deities completed by Enlil and Ea (Enki)."]
    https://allinnet.info/antiquities/ar...paris-herouni/

    Armenian ancestor drew human like I above. It is extremely nomal view. However chinese shang human did differently on orcle bone. See human's arm and leg angle of oracle bone script below first:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/explor...s_1523864.html

    then, see seima turbino shaman(so called Toharian according to one russian scholar)



    - North America

    https://sites.google.com/a/asu.edu/s...their-meanings



    Two Ancient Rock Inscriptions Indicate An Archaic Chinese Presence In The American Southwest
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ican_Southwest


    Last edited by johen; 11-09-22 at 04:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Hebrew / Jewish Calendars

    https://www.crystalinks.com/calendarjewish.html


    "Circular diagrams showing the division of the day and of the week, from a Carolingian ms. (Clm 14456 fol. 71r) of St. Emmeram Abbey. The week is divided into seven days, and each day into 24 hours, 96 puncta (quarter-hours), 240 minuta (tenths of an hour) and 960"


    "Schematic comparison of the ordering of the classical planets (arranged in a circle) and the sequence of days in the week (forming a {7/3} heptagram within the circle)."

    Originally Posted by johen
    .
    First One of Quijia culture in tarim where seima turbino reached: 7


    symbol of Hallstatt:7


    https://www.iias.asia/the-newsletter...ns-early-china
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC02800.jpg

    7 Segments:



    The Greek goddess Hecate portrayed in triplicate:
    Pliska Rosette, an archaeological find that is popular among the Bulgarian historians


    Fig. 3. The bronze Rosette-Horoscope with symbols of the Seven "planets" and zodiac constellations on its seven fingers.
    http://www.math.bas.bg/~keleved/dplisros/

    "Aztlán (from Nahuatl languages: Astlan, Nahuatl pronunciation: [ˈast͡ɬãːn̥] (listen)) is the ancestral home of the Aztec peoples."



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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    Armenian ancestor drew human like I above. It is extremely nomal view. However chinese shang human did differently on orcle bone. See human's arm and leg angle of oracle bone script below first:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/explor...s_1523864.html

    then, see seima turbino shaman(so called Toharian according to one russian scholar)

    Kalash idol (see legs and arms):

    https://thekalashatimes.wordpress.co...times/page/17/

    seima turbino eyes:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/8d4/...b96f282390.png

    Mayan eyes:



    kalash


    china bronze


    20th century wooden Kalash Gandau, note the cross (+) on it's chest. From the website: users.tpg.com.au

    india


    http://www.davidpratt.info/americas1.htm
    Last edited by johen; 14-09-22 at 21:24.

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    Derafsh Kaviani
    Aztec Glyph for Gold"


    ["Gold was understood to seep out of the earth. Its first appearance was compared to diaorrhea, and so it was called either the excrement of the sun or the excrement of the gods."]
    https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/...ymbol-for-gold

    "The vajra in South American cultures

    In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

    P.s

    Kurdish women’s tattoo designs from Iraq, ca. 1930.


    okunevo symbols at the bottom of pottery


    american Indian Hopi


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