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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

  1. #151
    Regular Member Nicu's Avatar
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    Resilience or Assimilation: A Critical Analysis of the Burial Practices of Kalasha in Pakistan:

    ["This paper investigates the burial practices and death rituals of the Kalasha tribe of Chitral, Pakistan and explores the process of change or development in the burial practices and decline of gandau (Kalashamon: burial memorial effigy) and gundurik (Kalashamon: burial memorial effigy) making."]

    I wonder how much of Kalash culture derives from pre-IE, ancient native sources vs the Indo European migrants. They're supposed to carry on some old aspects of early Indo Iranian or proto-Vedic religion before the rest of it evolved into what became Hinduism eventually, but now there's some controversy about the specifics of it. The population and ethnic history there may be a bit more complicated than some people think. Really interesting stuff though.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Ancient chinese script of sky (tian) on oracle bone:

    circle B:


    MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.

    PIE culture on mesomaerica:

    "The vajra in South American cultures

    In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

    so Kozintsev's opinion is plausible.

    "Unlike the previously outlined Scenario 1, which placed the IE,
    Uralic and Indo-Uralic homelands in the area east of the Caspian
    Sea, not far from the presumed common Eurasiatic homeland,
    Scenario 2 locates the latter in a much more easterly area
    between Lake Balkhash and the Altai. With regard to proto-IE,
    Scenario 2 is an extension of Scenario 1 back in time and space,
    adding a very long initial stretch of the westward expansion of
    Indo-Hittite across most of western Central Asia"

    "In line with johanna nichols’ early view (1997, 1998), i postulated the primary westward spread of ie from that locus, caused by the transition of one of the early farming groups to seminomadic pastoralism. the spread, however, likely occurred, not by two routes (the northern one to the western steppe, the southern to the near east),but only by the southern mountainous route along the elburz. an additional fact supporting this scenario is that, judging by reconstructed PIE terms for topographical features, the indo-hittites, at some stage of their history, lived in a mountainous terrain, moreover, that the mountain was perceived as a “mighty cliff reaching to the sky”; in addition, there was a sea or large lake nearby (gamkrelidze, ivanov 1995: 574–577; dybo 2013). as the authors conclude, this eliminates the steppe as a primary homeland."

    According to
    Igor V. Kovtun
    At the same time, the indirect influence ofthe Okunev cultural corpus on the formationof the proto-mythopoetic tradition of the earlyIndo-Aryans of the Seima-Turbino era, whichwas embodied in the quoted Vedic texts aftermore than a millennium, is not excluded.
    According to AG:

    UOO004; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1b-P297 (xM269) - very low coverage

    UOO012; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a2-YP4141>pre-YP5018 - 1 derived: YP5056+ T>C (3C) and 8 ancestral SNPs

    UOO033; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a2-L54>M1107>M930>pre-L804 - 12 derived and 14 ancestral SNPs

    UOO035; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096* (xM25,F746) - very low coverage

    "Interesting that a pre Q-L804 sample was found among Karelian hunter-gatherers. This subclade is very closely related to the subclades of Q present in Indigenous Americans."

    UOO051; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a1-pre-M459 - very low coverage

    UOO052; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

    UOO053; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

    UOO059; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; (pre-)J1-M267 (xZ2215,FT265222,F2306,Y158859,ZS50) - very low coverage

    "Russia_Afanasievo I3950, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2879-2632 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2a1a-a*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

    Bohemia_CordedWare_Early DRO001, Droužkovice_20B-2, Bohemia, Czech Republic, 2872-2633 calBCE, mtDNA: H2b, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, PapacSciAdv2021

    Russia_Afanasievo I3949, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2844-2496 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

    Russia_Afanasievo I6714, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2618-2468 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

    Q1b-FT380500 formed from 12900<->9900 BCE (TMRCA 2700<->2600 BCE), so TTK and the PIEs share a common ANE ancestor who lived around 15400<->11100 BCE (TMRCA of Q-Y6826), assuming TTK is Q1b-pre-Y6798. Regardless, the Q1b-Y6802 result signifies that TTK and the PIEs derive from the same Central-North Asian ANE population."


    america shaman:


    The celts:
    Last edited by johen; 09-01-23 at 01:06.

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