How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

[Nicu]

Resilience or Assimilation: A Critical Analysis of the Burial Practices of Kalasha in Pakistan:

["This paper investigates the burial practices and death rituals of the Kalasha tribe of Chitral, Pakistan and explores the process of change or development in the burial practices and decline of gandau (Kalashamon: burial memorial effigy) and gundurik (Kalashamon: burial memorial effigy) making."]

I wonder how much of Kalash culture derives from pre-IE, ancient native sources vs the Indo European migrants. They're supposed to carry on some old aspects of early Indo Iranian or proto-Vedic religion before the rest of it evolved into what became Hinduism eventually, but now there's some controversy about the specifics of it. The population and ethnic history there may be a bit more complicated than some people think. Really interesting stuff though.

[johen]

Ancient chinese script of sky (天 tian) on oracle bone:


circle B:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...2i9kw&usqp=CAU


Mexico

MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rn_mexico.html


PIE culture on mesomaerica:



"The vajra in South American cultures

In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

so Kozintsev's opinion is plausible.

"Unlike the previously outlined Scenario 1, which placed the IE,
Uralic and Indo-Uralic homelands in the area east of the Caspian
Sea, not far from the presumed common Eurasiatic homeland,
Scenario 2 locates the latter in a much more easterly area
between Lake Balkhash and the Altai. With regard to proto-IE,
Scenario 2 is an extension of Scenario 1 back in time and space,
adding a very long initial stretch of the westward expansion of
Indo-Hittite across most of western Central Asia"

"In line with johanna nichols’ early view (1997, 1998), i postulated the primary westward spread of ie from that locus, caused by the transition of one of the early farming groups to seminomadic pastoralism. the spread, however, likely occurred, not by two routes (the northern one to the western steppe, the southern to the near east),but only by the southern mountainous route along the elburz. an additional fact supporting this scenario is that, judging by reconstructed PIE terms for topographical features, the indo-hittites, at some stage of their history, lived in a mountainous terrain, moreover, that the mountain was perceived as a “mighty cliff reaching to the sky”; in addition, there was a sea or large lake nearby (gamkrelidze, ivanov 1995: 574–577; dybo 2013). as the authors conclude, this eliminates the steppe as a primary homeland."

According to Igor V. Kovtun
At the same time, the indirect influence ofthe Okunev cultural corpus on the formationof the proto-mythopoetic tradition of the earlyIndo-Aryans of the Seima-Turbino era, whichwas embodied in the quoted Vedic texts aftermore than a millennium, is not excluded.

According to AG:

UOO004; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1b-P297 (xM269) - very low coverage

UOO012; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a2-YP4141>pre-YP5018 - 1 derived: YP5056+ T>C (3C) and 8 ancestral SNPs

UOO033; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a2-L54>M1107>M930>pre-L804 - 12 derived and 14 ancestral SNPs

UOO035; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096* (xM25,F746) - very low coverage

"Interesting that a pre Q-L804 sample was found among Karelian hunter-gatherers. This subclade is very closely related to the subclades of Q present in Indigenous Americans."

UOO051; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; R1a1-pre-M459 - very low coverage

UOO052; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

UOO053; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; Q1a1-F1096>pre-F746 (xM120,YP1500)

UOO059; Yuzniy Oleni Ostrov; Karelia_EHG; (pre-)J1-M267 (xZ2215,FT265222,F2306,Y158859,ZS50) - very low coverage

"Russia_Afanasievo I3950, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2879-2632 calBCE, mtDNA: U5b2a1a-a*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Bohemia_CordedWare_Early DRO001, Droužkovice_20B-2, Bohemia, Czech Republic, 2872-2633 calBCE, mtDNA: H2b, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, PapacSciAdv2021

Russia_Afanasievo I3949, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2844-2496 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Russia_Afanasievo I6714, Karasuk III, Altai Mountains, Russia, 2618-2468 calBCE, mtDNA: U5a1d2b*, Y-DNA: Q1b-FT380500, NarasimhanPattersonScience2019

Q1b-FT380500 formed from 12900<->9900 BCE (TMRCA 2700<->2600 BCE), so TTK and the PIEs share a common ANE ancestor who lived around 15400<->11100 BCE (TMRCA of Q-Y6826), assuming TTK is Q1b-pre-Y6798. Regardless, the Q1b-Y6802 result signifies that TTK and the PIEs derive from the same Central-North Asian ANE population."
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ter-gatherers&

P.s
India:


america shaman:


Yamna:


The celts:

[johen]

3. PIE moved further East:

seima turbino migration:

"The model suggested by L.S. Klein is themost consistent, it takes into accountarchaeological material of theChemurchek culture (EasternTurkestan), which was discovered andstudied by Dr. A. A. Kovaliov [2004;2011; 2012a;b]. It was noted that theChemurchek materials are rather similarto the Elunino materials localized in theAltai Mountains and to the monumentsdiscovered in the north-east part ofKazakhstan [Grushin 2012; Merz, 2007;2010]. These materials are considered asan early step in the formation of SeimaTurbino metallurgical tradition, which inits turn influenced the formation of theYin-Shang industry in China [Kovaliov,2012a: 53-55; Novozhenov, 2012a;c]."


"Originally Posted by jormung
The problem of loanwords from indoeuropean to old chinese is very old and it is discussed in any good book about lndoeuropean linguistics.
But we can find the discussion in several papers, for example in "Tocharian Loan Words in Old Chinese: Chariots, Chariot Gear, and Town Building", by Alexander Lubolsky, or
"Indo-European Vocabulary in Old Chinese A New Thesis on the Emergence of Chinese Language and Civilization in the Late Neolithic Age" by Tsung-tung Chang
* dog, hound (ie: *kun-k, old ch: *huan(g),*khuen )
* goose (ie: *ghans, old ch:*gans)
* pork (ie: *pork, old ch:* pog)
* horse (ie: *mork, old ch:*mog )
* cow (ie: *gwhou , old ch: *gou )
and several other as milk, chariot, ...."

"The offspring of the first “settlers” founded new line of development in the north of Central Asia. In the area between the rivers Ob and Irtysh, this line of development is represented by the materials of EluninoOdinovsk type and Seima-Turbino circle. Cultural heritage of this line together with its outstanding metallurgical traditions were later incorporated into the new societies of Andronovo and Karasuk that emerged there. Presumably, the population of Central Plains of China borrowed terms related to chariot-riding from the Tocharians through the contacts with one of the two groups mentioned above (this hypothetical scenario implies that they obtained knowledge about prodicing and riding quadriga through contact with Early Andronovo clans). The cultural identity of the “Seima-Turbino Tocharians” existed for a very long time as part of the cultural association, which consisted of many related groups. It seems that they managed to preserve their identity due to technological advancement and sacred status of blacksmithing actities. The descendants of other production groups exploited other ecological niches and developed their own lines, keeping their potential “IndoIranian” or “Indo-Aryan” identity. As a result of these processes, a new center of cultural genesis emerged in the UralKazakh steppes. This center became the core of the new culture, which developed innovations in social structure, animal husbandry, weaponry, and wheeled transport (chariot riding) and formed its own means both for internal and external communications."

"that time. Later this territory located in the vast Saryarka peneplain, the Tarbagatay Mountains, Ob-Irtysh interfluve, and plain areas of the Southern Urals became the ancestral homeland of IEs; the identities of IIrs, Indo-Aryans, and of the Tocharian were formed there. The whidespread cross-breeding of IEs, which occurred through female line as a result of contacts in the process of development of new territories, was essential for formation of their cultural identity. However, with the expansion of the range of new pastures, the natural spreading of cattle-breading groups inevitably met resistance from the indigenous population. The most notable of the conflicts happened when these grops faced forest-steppe clans on Seima-Turbino territory. It was conflict between two communication systems; intense phase of communication where one side used chariots and the other was armed with socketed weapons. Very soon the nature of these relationships became synthetic, which was clearly manifested by mutual borrowing of advanced technological skills. Anyway, chariots, socketed weapons of SeimaTurbino type, and tin casting technology were actively used by representatives of Early Andronovo and later Karasuk societies. These set of innovations rapidly spread to all contact areas, where steppe clans interacted with ancient sedentary civilizations, and contributed to formation of Turanian, Chinese, Balkanian, and Iranian channels of communication [see: Novozhenov, 2012b:114-145; 2012d: 44-67; 2013: 100-117; 2013a; 2014a:18-267]."

from seima turbino to china bronze:

(first one is in erlitou culture, 2nd in tarim basin Quijia, 3rd in tianshan Xinjiang and 4th in Seima turbino)

Xia is erlitou culture:
"Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. That the Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005)."

["Tocharian agglutinative case inflexion as well as its single series of voiceless stops, the two most striking typological deviations from Proto-Indo-European, can be explained through influence from Uralic. A number of other typological features of Tocharian may likewise be interpreted as due to contact with a Uralic language. The supposed contacts are likely to be associated with the Afanas’evo Culture of South Siberia. This Indo-European culture probably represents an intermediate phase in the movement of speakers of early Tocharian from the Proto-Indo-European homeland in the Eastern European steppe to the Tarim Basin in Northwest China. At the same time, the Proto-Samoyedic homeland must have been in or close to the Afanas’evo area. A close match between the Pre-Proto-Tocharian and Pre-Proto-Samoyedic vowel systems is a strong indication that the Uralic contact language was an early form of Samoyedic."]

["Typological features of Tocharian show strong differences to other Indo-European languages, while being similar to Uralic languages, specifically to the Samoyedic branch. The Tocharian vowel system shows strong similarities to Yeniseian languages, and is structurally identical to the South Siberian system represented by Ket, while being different from the typical Indo-European vowel system. Another striking characteristic of Tocharian is agglutinative case marking and case functions, as well as the lack of dative case. Agglutinative case systems are widely found in Siberia and Eastern Asia, but the case functions, in particular the Tocharian perlative, best match Samoyedic and Yukaghir and comparable systems in South Siberia."]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337813595_The_deviant_typological_profile_of_the_T ocharian_branch_of_Indo-European_may_be_due_to_Uralic_substrate_influence
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?26280-quot-The-Genetic-History-of-the-Southern-Arc-A-Bridge-between-West-Asia-amp-Europe-quot/page239&

"Central China and the eastern Eurasian steppe with finds of spearheads with hooks typical of the Seima Turbino Phenomenon, second millennium BC. Map by Peter Hommel. Image modified from Rawson (2017)."

[johen]

^
["This paper was designed with two purposes in mind. The first is to convey the idea that there may have been a tribe of Indo-Europeans that conquered the Shang of the Yin dynasty, resulting in the establishment of China’s longest lasting and possibly most influential dynasty, the Zhou. The second purpose is to investigate, if this is the case, whether the myths and legends of China are in fact those of this Indo-European conquering tribe, and to suggest also that their systems of science and philosophy heavily influenced the ancient Chinese."]

For our purposes, four groups are of particular interest:

• The Chinese Indo-Europeans, who may have a genetic connection to the Zhou rulers whoconquered the Shang and came to control a large portion of the Yellow River Valley.

• The Indo-Aryan Indo-Europeans, who may have superimposed themselves on an indigenouspopulation and taken control over the northwestern parts of the Indian subcontinent, includingmuch of what is now Pakistan.

• The Greek Indo-Europeans who perhaps superimposed themselves on an early Bronze Agepopulation by which means they came to control much of Greece.

• The Hittites who superimposed themselves on the Hattians, thus gaining control over northcentral Anatolia.

so Indo-european seems to have huge territory like mongol empire. I always think that
only tiny DNA of Genghiskan represents mongol empire. Without historical records population genetics would not draw mongol territory at all.
One more thing is the indo-european speakers seemed to create mayan civiliztion in India, china.

P.s
C O M M O N C H A R A C T E R I S T I C S O F T H E I N D O - E U R O P E A N S
• They possessed and used horses and chariots.
• They believed in a Sky God.
• Medicine was a major interest, whether it was developed natively or adopted from othercultures.
• They were governed by comitatus1and observed a hierarchical, social-ranking, non-rigid castelike system based on a shared tripartite stratification (priests; warriors or kings; farmers ortradesmen or commoners).
• They were able to absorb easily a wide range of cultural elements from other peoples.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complet...ou_dynasty.pdf

Abstract: "**tees"l was the supreme god worshipped by the early ancient people wholived in the Delta of the Yellow River (DYR). All the people of Xia4, Shangl and Zhouldynasties worshipped him. There are many striking similarities between Old Chinese "*tees" andProto-Indo-European "*deus," based on the ancient documents. In addition, we have proof fromcomparative historical linguistics to verify that the two words share the same source. Evidencefrom historical records and linguistics comes to a common conclusion: the early civilization ofDYR received crucial influence from early Indo-European civilization.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complet...o_european.pdf

XIE Ruo-qiu(Department of Chinese Language and Literature,Jieyang Vocational & Technical College,Jieyang,Guangdong 522000,China)

There are many issues that seem related to the initial formation process of the Chinese language in the study of Chinese history.The recent archaeological research shows that just as Chinese civilization is a pluralistic and mixed one,so can Chinese be very similar to it. Archaeology has confirmed that Xia Dynasty,Shang Dynasty and Zhou Dynasty originated differently and their respective languages were naturally different,too.However,the three dynasties had close relationship with each other,so their languages had natural links. And

another notable fact is that Zhou Dynasty originated in part with Hudi tribe in North China.Therefore,we can draw the conclusion that the formation of Chinese is a complicated blending process.

[johen]

^ Triangle patterns on steppe culture seems to be sun's ray:

^ Seima turbino formula: sun/horse triangle up, snake diamond down





"Outline of the solar cosmology postulated by Kaul (1998), with outline drawings of the Trundholm Sun Chariot and a decorated bronze razor from Denmark."


"The Sun Chariot illustrates several of the same ideas. It consists of a bronze disc mounted on wheels, and is drawn by a horse, also on wheels. It can be viewed from two sides. When it appears to travel from left to right – the movement of the sun across the sky during the day – the disc is covered in gold. When it returns, from right to left (as it would do at night), the surface of the disc is plain.

The same distinction has been recognised by Flemming Kaul (1998) in a study of the decorated metalwork of Bronze Age Scandinavia. Among the commonest artefacts are the razors which were normally deposited with the dead. They feature tiny drawings of boats and the sun. Again the direction of travel is all-important. Where a ship carries the sun from left to right, it is associated with a horse. Kaul describes these vessels as ‘day ships’. Where a boat is shown moving in the opposite direction, it is often accompanied by a sh or a snake. Kaul suggests that these pictures refer to the hours of darkness, and that while the sun returns from right to left it is hidden under water. In that case the crucial transitions occur at sunrise and sunset (Figure 1)"

So boat means death?
mummies' boat grave at tarim basin


Kola Oleneostrovskiy Grave Field: A UniqueBurial Site in the European Arctic:

The burial constructions have been preservedas dark brown, decomposed woody or organicmatter. In many parts, the fibrous structure ofthe wood is still clearly visible, although in somecases the wood has already transformed into matter without any internal texture. The bones of thedead were covered with thin, dense, black organic matter – most likely the remains of clothingmade of animal skins.Most of the bodies had been buried in wooden, boat-shaped, lidded caskets, which lookedlike small boats or traditional Sámi sledges(Ru. kerezhka). It seems that the boards of theboats were made of thin wooden planks andwere probably tarred.

https://www.archeo.ru/struktura-1/ot...h_Moiseyev.pdf

[johen]

Ancient chinese script of sky (天 tian) on oracle bone:


circle B:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...2i9kw&usqp=CAU

MEXICO CITY—Archaeologists in southern Mexico announced Monday they have discovered a 2,700-year-old tomb of a dignitary inside a pyramid that may be the oldest such burial documented in Mesoamerica.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rn_mexico.html

"Drawings of Birdman image engraved on a shell cup from the Spiro site (top) and a Ripley Engraved bowl with pendant triangle scroll (bottom). Scalloped elements depict downy feathers. It is easy to see scalloping on Birdman, on the upper part of the wings with the long feathers hanging down below. To see scalloping on the scroll, you have to focus not on the dark pendant triangles but on the empty spaces between them."

https://texasbeyondhistory.net/pine/ceramics.html

sarmatian roundel and scythian torc:

"Drawing of four Piasas in a swastika pattern on shell cup from the Spiro site. The Piasas may be a reference to the Great Serpent manifest in the night sky"

[johen]

Products made of jade and other ornamental stones were of great value, they were often taken with them as amulets, and therefore, by the form, method of use and manufacture of these things, one can try to trace the movement of peoples in the vast expanses of Asia. Many artifacts found in Northeast China, the Baikal region and further west are very similar. Experts do not exclude that new research in this area will help clarify the content of the Seima-Turbino intercultural phenomenon, which attracts scientists from all over the world. What is it?

In the middle of the 16th-15th centuries BC, very characteristic and skillfully made bronze products spread over a vast area from the Oka basin to Xinjiang (a region in northwestern China) and the Yellow River valley - spears, knives, Celtic axes, and so on. Usually they are found together with jade rings, which, according to many researchers, are of Baikal origin. It is interesting that visually the disks found in the Oka basin, in the Urals and in the Baikal region, look exactly the same. As scientists suggest, there was a small, but very skilled people, whose craftsmen made mainly weapons and parts of chariots from metal. Coming to any locality, the bearers of the Seima-Turba traditions became the top of society, while the basic culture remained local. The metal most likely came from the Altai Mountains - probably from the part that is now located on the territory of Kazakhstan and, possibly, China. Presumably, the mysterious craftsmen were in active contact with the taiga tribes of Eastern Siberia, from whom they also borrowed flint arrowheads — they are found together with jade and bronze. As part of the joint project, it is planned to conduct various mineralogical analyzes, which will determine the place of extraction of raw materials for all these artifacts.

Scientists of the IAET SB RAS do not exclude that the spread of the jade culture (in the broad sense of the term) throughout the continent began precisely from Siberia. The oldest discovery in Asia (up to 40 thousand years old) of a bracelet made of dark green chloritolite was made in the famous Denisova Cave in Altai. There are excellent deposits of high-quality jade (both green and milky white) in the Baikal region - many skillful products of the Neolithic and early Bronze Ages have been found there, the manufacturing technology of which resembles that used by the ancient masters of Macau.

Stone Bracelet May Have Been Made by Denisovans:
[COLOR=#707070 !important][/COLOR]

[johen]

Steppe culture including yamna is sun and animal culture. it is same as american indian culture of sun and totem animal culture. totem animal's strong spirit protects and heal human being. steppe animal is a god, not an art nor style. i always think that steppe or nomad's expansion was caused by brutal animal spirit. capitalism's core element is also animal spirit. if human wants to succeed, he/she need ambition. ambition is called 野望. (野 wilderness, 望 hope/yearn to get something) so ambition is animal spirit?


1. According to david anthony, seima turbino ring pommel dagger spread at andronovo era. i think ring(sun, snake) was their religion, hence, the dagger seems like a christian's cross.


(first one is in erlitou culture, 2nd in tarim basin Qijia, 3rd in tianshan Xinjiang and 4th in Seima turbino)




- in shimao pyramid at china:


- Upper Tibet chariot and okunevo culture-type sun deity:



- tibet ring pommel dagger


[img]www.tibetarchaeology.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Fig.-27-e1458028468350.jpg[/img]

https://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2016/

- The celts


- sarmatian

- Avar
Ring pommel sword spread whole eurasia, even to Japan. It is a symbol of nomad elites:


- The Huns


- Han dynasty

Tombs of the kings of the Western Han dynasty (202 B.C.E.–9 C.E.) often contain burial items that are related to the material culture of the Eastern Eurasian Steppe.

These artifacts are usually interpreted in a general sense, for instance as a sign for the fascination of the Han elite with the exotic. A closer analysis of relevant finds, however, shows different strategies of dealing with foreign influences. While the exchange with the empire's northern neighbors is evidenced through goods for which identical excavated parallels from the steppe exist, the royal tombs of the Han also contained items that resemble and reference steppe motifs and objects but were clearly produced locally and for local consumers. Especially the latter type of artifacts can thus not simply be interpreted as the passive byproduct of exchange relations. Instead, we have to acknowledge that design, production, and usage of these objects were based on conscious decisions. Based on the insight that objects always have a social function, this article argues that the Han elite not only appropriated steppe influences and motifs (?) but also strategically (re)produced and integrated them into their world in order to redefine, enhance, and strengthen their position within their social framework.https://www.researchgate.net/publica...rn_Han_Dynasty

Of the more famous artifacts from Mawangdui were its

silk funeral banners; theseT-shaped banners were draped on the coffin of Tomb 1. The banners depicted the Chinese abstraction of the cosmos and the afterlife at the time of the western Han dynasty. A silk banner of similar style and function were found in Tomb 3.
The T-shaped silk funeral banner in the tomb of the Marquise (Tomb 1) is called the "name banner" with the written name of the deceased replaced with a portrait. We know the name because the tomb's original inventory is still intact, and this is what it is called on the inventory. The Marquise was buried in four coffins; the silk banner drapes the innermost of the coffins.^[4]
On the T-shaped painted silk garment, the uppermost horizontal section of the T represents heaven. The bottom of the vertical section of the T represents the underworld. The middle (the top of the vertical) represents earth. In heaven we can see Chinese deities such as Nuwa and Chang'e, as well as Daoist symbols such as cranes (representing immortality). Between heaven and earth we can see heavenly messengers sent to bring Lady Dai to heaven. Underneath this are Lady Dai's family offering sacrifices to help her journey to heaven. Beneath them is the underworld - two giant sea serpents intertwined.

The dagger was discovered in tumulus No. 2, where a 10-centimeter coaly layer covered bone remains of a 9- or 10-year-old boy burnt in a special “crematorium”. In consistence with the necropolis funeral rites, the dagger was stuck into the floor of the bone chamber and covered with

crane fragments left after cremation. The tomb doesn’t look too rich, given the number and composition of funerary gifts, but such highly prestigious object as a knife with carved finial indicates that the boy belonged to the upper class of Seima-Tubino society. In the social structure of the latter, the main roles were played by nomadic warriors and bronze casters, who possessed the most sophisticated technologies of the time. In the mid-2nd millennium BC, they made a huge forced march from Xinjiang in the east to the lower reach of Dniester in the west, leaving only burial sites and memorial altars behind them. The hallmark of such altars were glorious bronze weapons: celts, hefty spearheads, daggers, etc

- Rome:

https://swordencyclopedia.com/ring-sword/




Roman type Ring Pommeled swords (Miks 2009, 156)


https://www.researchgate.net/publica...LE_N_MACEDONIA

- Byzantine
https://i0.wp.com/archaeonewsnet.com...607.jpeg?ssl=1


2. animal culture

Abstracts:
In the mid-first B.C. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the Eurasian steppe, from Hungary to china and siberia. Carried largely by Iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." The precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. Many have stressed antecedents at Ziwiye in Iran while some find sources in China's Western chou culture. Since 1980, the precedence of Arzhan on the uppermpst Yenisey has become evident. A developmental chain from OKUNEVO to karasuk and Tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.


Conclusion:

To summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the OKUNEVO culture.
----
In the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. Many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of Hunno-sarmatian tribes, in Celto-Germanic culture, in Viking culture, and in ancient Rusiian Arts.

- seima turbino



-"Northwestern focuses (Karasuk) of the East-Asian metallurgical province: arsenical bronze producing. A-Karasuk inventory: B-Karasuk-Tagar knives (later phase)."



- karasuk


- shang china

[johen]

^

the dagger was discovered in tumulus no. 2, where a 10-centimeter coaly layer covered bone remains of a 9- or 10-year-old boy burnt in a special “crematorium”. in consistence with the necropolis funeral rites, the dagger was stuck into the floor of the bone chamber and covered with crane fragments left after cremation. the tomb doesn’t look too rich, given the number and composition of funerary gifts, but such highly prestigious object as a knife with carved finial indicates that the boy belonged to the upper class of seima-tubino society. in the social structure of the latter, the main roles were played by nomadic warriors and bronze casters, who possessed the most sophisticated technologies of the time. in the mid-2nd millennium bc, they made a huge forced march from xinjiang in the east to the lower reach of dniester in the west, leaving only burial sites and memorial altars behind them. the hallmark of such altars were glorious bronze weapons: celts, hefty spearheads, daggers, etc

in heaven we can see chinese deities such as nuwa and chang'e, as well as daoist symbols such as cranes (representing immortality). between heaven and earth we can see heavenly messengers sent to bring lady dai to heaven. underneath this are lady dai's family offering sacrifices to help her journey to heaven. beneath them is the underworld - two giant sea serpents intertwined.

Was a crane a golden bird at that time?

"The Golden Sun Bird or the Sun and Immortal Birds Gold Ornament (simplified Chinese: 太阳神鸟金饰; traditional Chinese: 太陽神鳥金飾; pinyin: Tàiyáng Shénniǎo Jīnshì) is an ancient artifact, unearthed in 2001 from the Jinsha Ruins in Chengdu City, Sichuan Province, China.^[1]
It is a ring-shaped piece of foil, made of nearly pure gold. The pattern consists of four birds, flying in the same counterclockwise direction, located around the perimeter. The center is a sun pattern with twelve points. It is 12.5 cm in diameter, with a 5.29 cm inner diameter. It has a thickness of 0.02 cm, and weighs 20 grams.^[2]
The piece is from the late Sanxingdui culture, and is now located in the Chengdu Jinsha Ruins Museum."





​
see crane toes below and golden sun bird toes above:


https://english.news.cn/20221222/f73...13bcb31/c.html
https://www.goodfreephotos.com/anima...ng-sun.jpg.php
https://www.pitara.com/science-for-kids/planet-earth-for-kids/high-tech-crane-migration/
https://www.michiganaudubon.org/a-plea-from-the-anishinaabek-people/

[johen]

Qin shihuwang

on the T-shaped painted silk garment, the uppermost horizontal section of the T represents heaven. the bottom of the vertical section of the T represents the underworld. the middle (the top of the vertical) represents earth. in heaven we can see chinese deities such as nuwa and chang'e, as well as daoist symbols such as cranes (representing immortality). between heaven and earth we can see heavenly messengers sent to bring lady dai to heaven. underneath this are lady dai's family offering sacrifices to help her journey to heaven. beneath them is the underworld - two giant sea serpents intertwined.

chinese script or character of 天 (sky): 2nd one and king above



- Bronze mirrors at china bronze where seima turbino reached:



symbol of Hallstatt:7

Pliska Rosette, an archaeological find that is popular among the Bulgarian historians
"Aztlán (from Nahuatl languages: Astlan, Nahuatl pronunciation: [ˈast͡ɬãːn̥] (listen)) is the ancestral home of the Aztec peoples."


ojibwe clan systems:

[johen]

okunevo symbols at the bottom of pottery:

1Local women help the bride, Sellma Demirovic, to get dressed in traditional clothes for a typical wedding in Donje Ljubinje, a predominantly ethnic Bosniak village of some 3,000 residents located in the Shar Mountains on the border between Kosovo and North Macedonia.
- mycenaean mask replica


korea traditional mask and wedding culture

"they put powder made out of rice on their face to make it whiter."

^ This steppe culture migrated in northeast asia also.

see seima turbino artifact 32;


https://www.rferl.org/a/kosovo-village-painted-bride/31416488.html
https://makeupsoftheworld.weebly.com...ng-makeup.html
https://arheologija.ru/pamyatniki-se...ipa-v-evrazii/

greece:




Orthian masks (from Carter 1987, 90 fig. 3-4).
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/An-early-6-th-century-Laconian-cup-from-the-Orthian-sanctuary-from-Lane-1933-34-plate_fig8_273403086

-This steppe culture migrated in northeast asia also. see nose and brow ridge





- Lattoon disc, Ireland, Bronze Age


- The spiral and triangle patterns seems to be connected to bronze mirror in Korea Iron age.



Poulnabrone dolmen, the Burren, County Clare, Ireland
Dolmen at Ganghwa Island, South Korea



Thru steppe:

[johen]

- The celts


- sarmatian

- Avar
Ring pommel sword spread whole eurasia, even to Japan. It is a symbol of nomad elites:


- The Huns


- Han dynasty

sky(america indian shaman)'s sunhead (Ring):


chinese script or character of 天 (sky): 3rd one

[johen]

Sanxingdui tree of life:





- pazyryk

[johen]

^
C O M M O N C H A R A C T E R I S T I C S O F T H E I N D O - E U R O P E A N S
• They possessed and used horses and chariots.
• They believed in a Sky God.
• Medicine was a major interest, whether it was developed natively or adopted from othercultures.
• They were governed by comitatus1and observed a hierarchical, social-ranking, non-rigid castelike system based on a shared tripartite stratification (priests; warriors or kings; farmers ortradesmen or commoners).
• They were able to absorb easily a wide range of cultural elements from other peoples.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complet...ou_dynasty.pdf

- Chariot people spread IE and left their footprint:






-india


-armenia


- chinese script or character of 天 (sky): 2nd one:






-america indian shaman (=sky):






"Anyway, chariots, socketed weapons of SeimaTurbino type, and tin casting technology were actively used by representatives of Early Andronovo and later Karasuk societies. These set of innovations rapidly spread to all contact areas, where steppe clans interacted with ancient sedentary civilizations, and contributed to formation of Turanian, Chinese, Balkanian, and Iranian channels of communication"


- Problem is too small people might migrate and barely genetic and linguistic impact upon farmers like mongol?

Originally Posted by Tutut View Post
Why IE share good amount of agricultural vocabulary but not about horses and riding?

Originally Posted by Tutut

I see no correlation between steppe ancestry and IE languages. German and Celtic have big amount of no IE vocabulary, they were simply IEsed very late if we take into account the etruscans.
--
Linguists believe that the Proto-Indo-European language (PIE), from which all Indo-European languages descended, was spoken around 4000-2500 BC, but it is NOT directly attested in any written sources. Therefore, the exact nature and characteristics of PIE remain a subject of ongoing research and scholarly debate.
And more from Colin Renfrew:
"One important question is the extent to which it is legitimate to reconstruct a Proto-Indo-European language, drawing upon the cognate forms of the words in the various Indo-European languages that are known. Certainly it is questionable whether the nouns (for linguistic palaeontologists make little use of verbs or adjectives) can legitimately be used in the way advocated by Pictet and by Schrader to create an inventory, as it were, of the Urheimat, the original homeland of these Proto-Indo-Europeans."
That is, the words presented for PIE are a huge speculation. The only proven source is Sanskrit for an old IE language base.

[johen]

Stone Bracelet May Have Been Made by Denisovans:
[COLOR=#707070 !important][/COLOR]

"Map-scheme of the distribution of Baikal jade in the Bronze Age ( green shows the places of finds on the territory of Russia, brown - on the territory of China): 1 - Seimas; 2 - Ust-Vetluzhsky burial ground; 3 - Turbine; 4 - Okunevo-15; 5 - Shaman cape; 6 - Shumilikha; 7 , Khake, Inner Mongolia; 8 - Daqiao (Big Bridge) on the river. Wuyer, Helongjiang Province; 9 - Wanhaitun, Heilongjiang Province; 10 - Xinxingxiang, Jilin Province"

https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyar...tsveta_nefrita

- sky(america indian shaman)'s sunhead (Ring):


chinese script or character of 天 (sky): 3rd one




- then migrated to china, Jade 玉 = 王 king:





Erlitou culture above in the map is called Xia:

Abstract: "**tees" was the supreme god worshipped by the early ancient people wholived in the Delta of the Yellow River (DYR). All the people of Xia, Shangl and Zhouldynasties worshipped him. There are many striking similarities between Old Chinese "*tees" and Proto-Indo-European "*deus," based on the ancient documents. In addition, we have proof fromcomparative historical linguistics to verify that the two words share the same source. Evidence from historical records and linguistics comes to a common conclusion: the early civilization of DYR received crucial influence from early Indo-European civilization.

even to Yangtze Valley

"On the left is a jade disk from Shumilikha, the Baikal region, processed according to the “northern” technology. Probably a semi-finished product from which the ring and disk were supposed to be obtained. On the right - the "northern" technology of cutting a disc from jade (according to S. A. Semenov)"

"jade figurines. Hongshan culture, about 5500 years ago. n. According to Chinese researchers, the pose of the jade "shaman" ( right ) speaks of his work with internal energy (qi)"

- statue menhirs



- chemurchek
http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin...chemurchek.png

[johen]

seima turbino ring pommel dagger:


sarmatian ring pommel sword:

"Sarmatian sword with the distinctive ring-type handle ending. A leather strap was probably tied in the ring and in the hand of the warrior as well, in order to prevent the loss of the sword during combat (?) (Source: Periklis Deligiannis)."

"The Sarmatian armies included among other types of combatants, many cataphract cavalrymen protected (like their horses) with nearly full-length metal armor (usually scale armor). They also included many horse-archers and horse-spearmen without any cuirass. The cataphracts fought mainly as lancers with a long heavy spear (like the subsequent European knights) as their main offensive weapon. They were also carrying a composite bow, a long sword and a dagger. The familiar to us, figure of the Late Medieval European knight was created when the East Germanics (Goths, Vandals, Burgundians), the Suebi Germanics (Marcomanni, Longobards/Lombards, Quadi) and the Romans adopted the full Sarmatian cavalry equipment. The decimation of the Roman army by the Gotho-Sarmatian cavalry at the battle of Adrianople in 378 AD, established the dominance of the knight (cataphract) during the Middle Ages. The Normans of Northern France were the ones who shaped the final form of chivalry."

"A spangenhelm, popular to the Sarmatians (many researchers consider it to be of Sarmatian origin), the Later Romans, the Romano-Britons and many barbarian peoples (Goths, Huns, Saxons etc.) (Source: Periklis Deligiannis)."

"A representation of a Draconarius, a Roman standard-bearer of the Late Empire, by the British Historical Association Comitatus. He holds the banner of the Dragon which the Roman army bequeathed to the Romano–British army who confronted the Anglo-Saxons. The dragon was a Saka/Sarmatian symbol (and banner), adopted from China to the Roman Empire."


"These Iranian-Sarmatian elements of the figures of Parsifal and Balin enhances the likelihood of the Sarmatian origin of their ‘personal’ Epics, as well as the same origin of the general Legend of Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table. The Hungarian epic Anna Molnar and the Turkish Targhyn have certainly the same nomadic origins. The name of the hero Targhyn has the same etymology as the aforementioned “Pendragon” of the Arthurian Cycle.

Arthur’s legend mentions the existence of two “magical swords”. The one was the sword of Uther, Arthur’s father, which was nailed to a rock. Arthur was proclaimed king when he dragged it off the cliff, while the other candidates for the throne had failed. It is characteristic that the Sarmatians worshiped their main deity in the form of a sword nailed to earth or rock. The second “magic sword” of the legend is the famous Excalibur, which Arthur received from the “Lady of the Lake”.
The episode of Excalibur is almost identical to the reports of ‘magic swords’ in the saga of Batradz, a hero of the Ossetians of the Caucasus, and also in the episode of Krabat’s death which is included in a popular history of the modern Sorbs of Eastern Germany. The modern Ossetians are the last surviving Sarmatians, being descendants of Alans. They are divided among the Russian Federation and Georgia (Autonomous Republics of Northern and Southern Ossetia respectively). The Sorbs, a people of a few tens of thousands which is surrounded by millions of Germans, are Slavs but they bear a Sarmatian tribal name. "

https://www.kavehfarrokh.com/uncateg...ical-evidence/
Dr. Kaveh Farrokh's blog

[johen]

seima turbino shaman


okunevo:


Arkaim in sintahsta culture:



seima turbino:

[johen]

seima turbino shaman


okunevo:


Arkaim in sintahsta culture:

A noble chin?




“But assuming the information in the journal from 1833 is correct, Hilda passed away any time between 55BC to 400AD and was of Celtic origin.
"Believed to have been more than 60 years old when she died, Hilda is depicted as toothless although she still displays many features recognisable today. A female’s life expectancy at this time was roughly 31 years but it is now thought that living longer during the Iron Age is indicative of a privileged background."
“But assuming the information in the journal from 1833 is correct, Hilda passed away any time between 55BC to 400AD and was of Celtic origin."

According to grigoryev,
[...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.during xvi-xv centuries artefacts closely related to seyma tradition became typical for hoards in pannonia, france and england. thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of celts.a new wave of newcomers left f’odorovo culture sites. some include usually this culture, together withalakul culture, in andronovo culture.]

-


Charles II of Spain, the last ruler in the Habsburg family line. Note the prominent jaw. Credit: Wikimedia Commons."The Habsburgs were once the most powerful family in the world, ruling over countries such as the Holy Roman Empire, England, France, Germany, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Portugal, Spain, and the Netherlands. Their lineage lasted for 700 years.
In order to secure its influence, the family relied on generations of intermarriage, but this lack of genetic diversity eventually ended up being their downfall. Now, a new study has confirmed that facial deformities in Habsburg bloodline, colloquially known as the “Habsburg jaw”, can be traced to inbreeding."
https://www.zmescience.com/science/s...al-inbreeding/



"Retrognathic maxilla in "habsburg jaw". skeletofacial analysis of joanna of austria (1547-1578)."

[johen]

In India:
2000 BC Sanauli warrior in supine style with chariot

in the northern fringes of the steppe belt, i stressed the extreme importance of the okunev culture which had on the one hand connections with the far east and, on the other, definite links with the south of central asia. meanwhile i discovered a group of petroglyphs in the indus valley, near chilas, that is connected with the engravings of the okunev culture by the main motifs and stylistic peculiarities. in addition to one report on my findings (jettmar 1982: 298-302), others are forthcoming. it is not improbable that during the third and early second millemmia b.c. there were relations over thousands of kilometers, perhaps due to migrations of cattle-keeping early nomads. other connections leading in the same direction were observed by stacul (1977:251-252) and the allchins (1982:111-116).

Okunevo comb:



Okunev period figurine (with drawing reconstruction), Novosibirsk Tourist-2 archaeological site.^[34] Dated 4601 ± 61 BP (3511–3127 cal BC, AMS date).^{[35] :}

The Okunev people have been the subject of many studies, both with their origins and the interesting abstract drawings they left behind. In the geography they spread, the solar-headed petroglyphs carved on

steles and rocks are one of the oldest mythological archetypes related to the Sun. There is no definite data yet that these petroglyphs symbolize a sun god or a shaman. However, similar drawings often appear as sun gods in paintings dealing with both Asian and European mythologies.

https://ulukayin.org/okunev-petroglyphs-and-eurasian-solar-deities/

[johen]

Ancient DNA of the Bearers of the Fatyanovo and Abashevo Cultures (Concerning Migrations of the Bronze Age people in the Forest Belt on the Russian Plain)

A well-known Abashevo kurgan in

Pepkino contained the remains of twenty-eight males who appear to have died violent deaths.^[15]

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig3_370414570



"This study addresses a fundamental question of the origins and migration patterns of paleopopulations of the Fatyanovo and the Middle Volga Abashevo archaeological cultures. It is for the first time that we report a paleogenetic analysis of 14 Abashevo individuals (Pepkino and Starshy Nikitinsky sites). Besides, we analysed ancient DNA samples of 25 Fatyanovo individuals.
Specifically, we performed analyses of STR marker and haplogroups of the Y chromosome, which revealed the distinct R1a (Z93) haplogroup in Fatyanovo samples. It indicates the influence of the founder effect and gene drift, confirming the hypothesis of their migrant origin. In contrast, the Abashevo culture samples are heterogenous, as we discovered 2 groups with different origins on the paternal line. To be more specific, three men from Pepkino mound are haplogroup R1b (Z2103) carriers, while seven other individuals have haplogroup R1a (Z93>Z94). In addition, close relatives with identical STR haplotypes of the Y-chromosome were identified in both Fatyanovo and Abashevo groups.
The comparative analyses of autosomal markers from 19 samples and previously published data uncovered similarities between Abashevo men from Pepkino mound (the haplogroup R1a (Z93>Z94)) with the Fatyanovo people, as well as with some representatives of the Unetice culture. These results are suggestive of the genetic continuity in the Russian Plain. Yet, less recent ancestors of Abashevo group interred in Pepkino mound could have migrated from the same region as the Fatyanovo predesessors."

However:

"the fact that bronze age tribes of the middle volga supported eastern (trans-uralian) cultural links is evidenced by materials from the yurino burial ground associated with the seima-turbino tradition, and by pottery with rolls and serpentine patterns from the chirki settlements. likewise, arsenic copper, of which artifacts from the pepkino and abashevo burials of the abashevo culture are made, comes from the tash-kazgan mines in the trans-ural region. eastern affinities are also documented by seima-type arrowheads belonging to abashevo warriors buried at pepkino and algashi mound 12. these artifacts resemble those from the krotovo burial grounds on the irtysh (inberen x, chernoozerye iv and vi). these contacts clearly date to the middle bronze age (early 2nd millennium bc)."

- So question is what the identity of Abashevo culture is and more important question is what relationship between ST and Abashevo is, Ukraine and Russia or Ukraine and Mongol?

(west side)

Human skeletal remains from excavations of the Pepkino burial mound bear many traumatic wounds on the skulls and postcranial bones (Figure 4). The primary hypothesis is that young men of the Abashevo culture fell at the hands of enemies, which were the representatives of another tribe or culture [14,16]. After their discovery in the XX century, the skulls of killed people of the Abashevo culture were restored using anthropological paste, including beeswax. The inner and external surfaces of skulls, especially damaged, were covered by these materials. These restored surfaces were tested using X-ray microtomography in order to identify hidden defects. The beeswax layers were virtually separated and removed from the model.

(east side)
seima turbino migration:

This research explores how social and environmental factors may have contributed to conflict during the early Bronze Age in Northwest China by analyzing violent trauma on human skeletal remains from a cemetery of the Qijia culture (2300-1500 BCE). The Qijia culture existed during a period of dramatic social, technological, and environmental change, though minimal research has been conducted on how these factors may have contributed to violence within the area of the Qijia and other contemporaneous material cultures. An osteological assessment was conducted on 361 individuals (n = 241 adults, n = 120 non-adults) that were excavated from the Mogou site, Lintan County, Gansu, China. Injuries indicative of violence, including sharp- and blunt-force trauma that was sustained ante- or peri-mortem, were identified, and the patterns of trauma were analysed.

unetice culture:


seima turbino:


- unetice culture nebra disk:


a. The Nebra disc adorned with gold plates that might represent the sun, the moon and stars. b. Back view. c. Profile
"The Nebra disc is one of the most sensational European discoveries of the decade. It appears to carry symbols of the sun, moon and stars wrought in gold on a flat bronze disc just over a foot across (320mm). It is not only very strange, but, famously, appears to be winking, initially raising the suspicion that it may be a hoax. Scholars have, however, claimed it firmly for the Bronze Age, and the debate now moves to the matter of its meaning. Here the authors offer a subtle interpretation that sees it as the shamanistic device of a local warrior society."

vs



Modern Inuit artistic work. Nunavut, by Kenojuak Ashevak. Cape Dorset, 1993. Note the similarity in relative size, position and orientation of the centre objects with those on the 3600 year old Nebra disc (by courtesy of the West Baffin Eskimo Co-operative and Indian and Northern Affairs, Canada).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig5_233530036

[johen]

"Map-scheme of the distribution of Baikal jade in the Bronze Age ( green shows the places of finds on the territory of Russia, brown - on the territory of China): 1 - Seimas; 2 - Ust-Vetluzhsky burial ground; 3 - Turbine; 4 - Okunevo-15; 5 - Shaman cape; 6 - Shumilikha; 7 , Khake, Inner Mongolia; 8 - Daqiao (Big Bridge) on the river. Wuyer, Helongjiang Province; 9 - Wanhaitun, Heilongjiang Province; 10 - Xinxingxiang, Jilin Province"





Stone Bracelet May Have Been Made by Denisovans:
[COLOR=#707070 !important][/COLOR]

Ancient human DNA recovered from a Palaeolithic pendant

Elena Essel, Elena I. Zavala, Ellen Schulz-Kornas, Maxim B. Kozlikin, Helen Fewlass, Benjamin Vernot, Michael V. Shunkov, Anatoly P. Derevianko, Katerina Douka, Ian Barnes, Marie-Cécile Soulier, Anna Schmidt, Merlin Szymanski, Tsenka Tsanova, Nikolay Sirakov, Elena Endarova, Shannon P. McPherron, Jean-Jacques Hublin, Janet Kelso, Svante Pääbo, Mateja Hajdinjak, Marie Soressi & Matthias Meyer

Nature (2023)

Abstract

"Artefacts made from stones, bones and teeth are fundamental to our understanding of human subsistence strategies, behaviour and culture in the Pleistocene. Although these resources are plentiful, it is impossible to associate artefacts to specific human individuals1 who can be morphologically or genetically characterized, unless they are found within burials, which are rare in this time period. Thus, our ability to discern the societal roles of Pleistocene individuals based on their biological sex or genetic ancestry is limited2,3,4,5. Here we report the development of a non-destructive method for the gradual release of DNA trapped in ancient bone and tooth artefacts. Application of the method to an Upper Palaeolithic deer tooth pendant from Denisova Cave, Russia, resulted in the recovery of ancient human and deer mitochondrial genomes, which allowed us to estimate the age of the pendant at approximately 19,000–25,000 years. Nuclear DNA analysis identifies the presumed maker or wearer of the pendant as a female individual with strong genetic affinities to a group of Ancient North Eurasian individuals who lived around the same time but were previously found only further east in Siberia. Our work redefines how cultural and genetic records can be linked in prehistoric archaeology."

so a partner or food?

[johen]

sorry................