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Thread: How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?

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    How can IE migration be explained without mentioning Seima Turbino?



    This is a continuation of my thread, why okunevo culture was ignored?
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t-paleo-people

    I really don’t understand why seima turbino culture was totally killed. Can IE migation to India really be explained without seima-turbino culture analysis?

    As I said before, central asia horse people seems to start to butcher farmers in whole eurasia like mongol around 1,500bc when IE people migrated to India. Any andronovo culture was not found near south asia, but okunevo and maybe seima turbino also.




    according to grigoryev,
    [...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domesticanimals.during xvi-xv centuries artefacts closely related to seyma tradition became typical for hoards in pannonia, france and england. thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of celts.a new wave of newcomers left f’odorovo culture sites. some include usually this culture, together withalakul culture, in andronovo culture.]

    From
    Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:

    there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-westernpoland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom trzciniec culture.
    essential changes in metalworking occurred inthe middle bronze age [megaw, simpson, 1979, p.207], of which the appearance of arrowheads look-ing back to seima-turbino forms is of most interestto us. they have a cast elongated round socket, awide long blade, and a round or rhombic socket-shank. on the socket there are eyes for attachment(fig. 78.3,4). some sockets are ornamented withtriangles or zigzags which correspond closely toseima tradition [ehrenberg, 1977]. middle bronzeage hoards also contain celts with a side eye [farley,1979]. in addition to objects linked with seima-turbino metalworking, metal of central europeanorigin occurs in the wessex complexes, in particu-lar, pins of unětician types [megaw, simpson, 1979, p. 227].
    https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Anc...nsk_Rifei_2002

    In china:
    http://www.bronsereplika.no/Linduff%202017.JPG

    these new observations suggest that the distribution of metal spearheads from the seima-turbino culture to northern china represents the diffusion and spread of the metallurgical technique. from the metallurgical perspective in particular, the bronze casting of spearheads indicates the origin of piece-mould casting and core-casting technology, which influenced the bronze vessel casting method in china. we therefore suggest that the early chinese metallurgy of the lower xiajiadian culture in the western liao river area can be linked to the seima-turbino culture; this technique had spread from the altai mountain area to northern china via the taosi culture. after spreading to the lower xiajiadian culture, it finally arrived at the qijia culture of qinghai and gansu provinces in the west
    soviet scholars are convinced that the custom of depositing chariots in the graves of the shang rulers came from the west, as well as the ceremonial significance of the the chariot itself. the finds of sintashta, where the wheels are standing in furrows carefully dug into the soil of the grave-chamber(exaclty in china) as well as the conventionalized rock carvings, confirm this thesis.
    abstract: records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.

    In India:
    2000 BC Sanauli warrior in supine style with chariot


    Last edited by johen; 29-08-19 at 07:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In china:
    distribution of spearheads from ST to china:

    http://www.bronsereplika.no/Linduff%202017.JPG


    these new observations suggest that the distribution of metal spearheads from the seima-turbino culture to northern china represents the diffusion and spread of the metallurgical technique. from the metallurgical perspective in particular, the bronze casting of spearheads indicates the origin of piece-mould casting and core-casting technology, which influenced the bronze vessel casting method in china. we therefore suggest that the early chinese metallurgy of the lower xiajiadian culture in the western liao river area can be linked to the seima-turbino culture; this technique had spread from the altai mountain area to northern china via the taosi culture. after spreading to the lower xiajiadian culture, it finally arrived at the qijia culture of qinghai and gansu provinces in the west
    Elunino culture, one of seima turbino, used lead component. Thus it would make lead-poisoning happen in china bronze like in Rome age. Its sword was found in huge step pyramid in northern china and erlitou culture(so called Xia first dynasty in china)

    unfortunately, in china we do not yet know of any metal object related,without doubt, to the chemurchek culture. kovalev, erdenebaatar, tishkin and grushin found several leaden ear rings and one ring of tin bronze in three excavated chemurchek stone boxes (kovalev and erdenebaatar 2014a; tishkin et al. 2015). such lead rings are typical for elunino culture,which occupied the entire west altai after 2400–2300 bce (tishkin et al. 2015). this culture had developed a tradition of bronze metallurgy with various dopants, primarily tin. thus, the tradition of bronze metallurgy as early as this time could have penetrated the mongolian altai far to the south.
    Bronze drinking vessels famous for their intricate carvings and used by the aristocracy in the Chinese Shang dynasty (1555-1145 BCE) are known to have been fabricated with alloys containing soft metallic lead. The contribution of lead leaching from such vessels into the fermented grain wines drunk by the Chinese nobility in ancient times has not been previously estimated.
    Significant lead contamination of Shaoxing rice wine was detected when it was left in bronze goblets fabricated to resemble the Shang dynasty vessels. If a liter of contaminated wine was drunk daily, the daily intake of lead could have been as high as 85 mg. Such a high degree of contamination could cause chronic lead poisoning, affecting the health of the Shang nobility who used bronze beverage containers, before lead was excluded from the manufacture of bronze.
    step pyramid in china:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-down-pyramids (post 9)

    it has long been known that a single-edged knife found at erlitou, the centre of the first bronzes cast on china's central plain, belonged to a steppe tradition (mei 2009). the knife can be compared with one from the elunino culture in the russian altai, and with its relatives at shimao (figure 4).
    Last edited by johen; 01-09-19 at 08:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In India:
    2000 BC Sanauli warrior in supine style with chariot: Comb


    Similarity between india bronze and myceneaen:

    Sanauli chariot (wheel):
    http://www.ancientpages.com/wp-conte...ariotindia.jpg

    Helios's brooch:




    india copper hoard near IVC:

    http://www.ancientpages.com/2018/06/...orthern-india/
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...objectid=63117

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    ancient greek women vs ancient Xinjiang Province women

    "called the kangjiashimenji petroglyphs, these images of an ancient fertility ritual were discovered roughly 25 years ago by chinese archeologist wang binghua in the western xinjiang province. credit: jeannine davis-kimball/center for the study of eurasian nomads"

    "the faces appear caucasian or western and the images mirror some discovered 1,600 miles away in ukraine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    See a Ring dagger of seima turbino culture. I think the Ring was a history maker.
    Seima turbino has lots of style dagger. Ring and curbed style seems to be inherited into karashuk culture, which was spread into china bronze and east asia. Even avar has a long ring sword.

    Between the early Seima-Turbino and later Karasuk types of metallurgy there are sufficiently striking and obvious points of interrelation (compare Figs. 14 and 17).
    Karashuk style dagger in china.

    A rather significant numberof imitations of Karasuk metal forms are currently known from Ancient China. These imitations are well represented even in the “royal”complexes of Anyang cemetery, dated on the basis of written documents to the XIII to XI centuries BC, the period of the late Shang dynasty(Chang and Pingfang 2005: 150-176).
    Knife coin in china

    Knife money is the name of large, cast, bronze, knife-shaped commodity money produced by various governments and kingdoms in what is now China, approximately 2500 years ago. Knife money circulated in China between 600 and 200 B.C. during the Zhou dynasty.
    Celt (Gaulic) Ring-Handled Knives:
    www.historyguru.com.au/HistoryGuru/files/cc/cc8bfbe9-7a6b-4435-ac9a-440cf7ad9399.jpg

    Mycenaean has two types of swords. one with ring, the others from west asia:


    seima turbino's twin snake head dagger.


    antennae sword,1500–500 b.c. copper hoard india:


    sarmatian sword:
    Last edited by johen; 01-09-19 at 06:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Karashuk style dagger in china.



    Knife coin in china

    seima turbino's celt as money also? It seems to me that battle axe was valuable in ancient europe, but dagger in ancient east asia.


    with hundreds of axes; over 300, and maybe many more, the dorset site is remarkable. not only are there more of axes than from any other site of this date, but it is also unique in having four separate hoards buried close by.

    the axes in the dorset hoard could not have been used. instead it is as if they were ingots of metal made in the shape of an axe. from the stone age axes made from stone from the highest hills, perhaps where the gods lived, had been objects regarded as having special powers. at the beginning of the bronze age, metal axes were treated as special objects. at the end of the bronze age, when iron had already started to be used, it is almost as if symbolic axes were used as a form of currency, as a measure of wealth. it is almost as if the values of the offerings to the god could be measured in terms of the amount of metals used, and that at the very end of the bronze age, the shape that embodied the value of metal was the one that was used at the beginning of the bronze age; an axe.
    unstoppable seima turbino celt.


    a typological comparison between copper-base, blind socketed axe-adzes from: 1 turbino i cemetery (perm krai, russia), 2 yinxu, miaobu locus north burial 60 (henan, rpc), 3 xin'gan, 'dayangzhou great burial' (jiangxi, rpc), 4 dong den cemetery (ha tay, vietnam), 5 non nok tha, burial 90 (khon kaen, thailand), 6 non pa wai, square c, burial 2 (khok samrong; thailand), 7 tha kae bronze age layer (lopburi, thailand). b typological comparison between copper-base, blind socketed spear-heads from: 1 seima cemetery (chelyabinsk oblast, russia), 2 yinxu, locus west, burial 729 (henan, rpc), 3 ban chiang, burial 76 (udon thani, thailand), 4 nil kham haeng, burial 4 (khok samrong, thailand), 5 viet khe cemetery (thanh hoa, vietnam)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    I really don’t understand why seima turbino culture was totally killed. Can IE migation to India really be explained without seima-turbino culture analysis?
    As I said before, central asia horse people seems to start to butcher farmers in whole eurasia like mongol around 1,500bc when IE people migrated to India.

    How did sintashta culture survive? Seima turbino people attacked whole eurasia, but sintashta. If sintashta people was strong enough to defend against seima turbino, why were they stuck in east Ural?

    Anyway, two people seems to interact each other.


    [figure 86. materials from an aristocratic burial at zardcha khalifa in the zeravshan valley. (1) horse-head sceptre pin of bronze of the same type as those found in sintashta (4) [not to scale]. (2) two horse bits of bronze. (3) fragments of cheek-pieces of bone. modified from parpola and carpelan (2005), where images from bobomulloev 1997 and gening et al. 1992 are used.]

    horse-head in seima-turbino
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...kh2008Fig8.jpg

    arkaim statue in sintashta culture:
    www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org/theearth/oct12/arkaim-8.jpg

    same statue in seima at 20:
    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf

    according to anthony:
    the dating of the seima-turbino horizon has changed significantly in recent years. similarities between seima-turbino socketed spearheads and daggers and parallel objects in mycenaean tombs were once used to date the seima-turbino horizon to a period after 1650 bce. it is clear now, however, that mycenaean socketed spearheads, like studded disk cheekpieces, were derived from the east and not the other way around. seima-turbino and sintashta were partly contemporary, so seima-turbino probably began before 1900 bce.31 seima-turbino and sintasha graves had the same kinds of flint projectile points. sintashta forged socketed spearheads probably were the simpler predecessors of the more refined hollow-cast seima-turbino socketed spearheads. a hollow-cast spearhead of seima-turbino type was deposited in a petrovka-culture chariot grave at krivoe ozero (k. 2, gr. 1); and a sintashta bent and forged spearhead appeared in the seima-turbino cemetery at rostovka (gr. 1) (see figure 16.15). the metal-working techniques of the northern steppes (sintashta and petrovka) and the forest-steppe zone (seima-turbino) remained separate and distinct for perhaps one hundred to two hundred years. but by the beginning of the andronovo period they merged, and some important seima-turbino metal types, such as cast single-edged knives with a ring-pommel, became widely popular in andronovo communities.
    Last edited by johen; 04-09-19 at 00:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    seima turbino's twin snake head dagger.


    antennae sword,1500–500 b.c. copper hoard india:
    I think vedic culture cannot be explained without snake to generate and regenerate life. I think more important thing is snake pattern itself, which is a mandala (circle). Rigveda is just a mandala book.
    Our life is a mandala, and solar system is a mandala. Aryan, celtic, ancient greek, scythian and american indian are all mandala people.
    However, steppe cultures, which are mainly discussed in the papers, don't have snake culture of mandala concept. The cultures just explain a small part of rigveda like chariot thing, horse burial thing, pole things, fire cult and etc.

    Moreover, we can see snake moving patterns in mycenaean vase and ST snake daggers, which is same as thunder pattern. So snake can be replaced by thunderbolt of Zeus or Indra. We can find a eagle holding thunderbolt or snake. In other words,
    I think a snake dagger of seima turbino seems to be a thunderbolt.


    Naga(snake)-mandala is a religious ritual theater in the cultural region of Tulu Nadu

    Last edited by johen; 02-09-19 at 22:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    As I said before, central asia horse people seems to start to butcher farmers in whole eurasia like mongol around 1,500bc when IE people migrated to India. Any andronovo culture was not found near south asia, but okunevo and maybe seima turbino.

    In India:
    2000 BC Sanauli warrior in supine style with chariot.
    Moreover,

    Bronze Age social and cultural interconnections across the Eurasian steppe are the subject of much current debate. A particularly significant place is occupied by the Andronovo Culture or family of cultures. Important new data document the most easterly extension of Eurasian Bronze Age sites of Andronovo affinity into western China. Findings from the site of Adunqiaolu in Xinjiang and a new series of radiocarbon dates challenge existing models of eastward cultural dispersion, and demonstrate the need to reconsider the older chronologies and migration theories. The site is well preserved and offers robust potential for deeper study of the Andronovo culture complex, particularly in the eastern mountain regions.
    The new data from Adunqiaolu fit well into the emerging view of the eastern Andronovoas shown by Frachetti and Mar’yashev (2007), Hanks et al. (2007), Panyushkina et al.(2008) and Molodin et al. (2012a), and which is gradually gaining wider acceptance(e.g. Doumani 2014). The earlier chronologies for the putative eastward spread of theAndronovo are clearly challenged, although mechanisms behind the transmission of generalcultural influences remain unclear. The revised chronology supports new hypotheses on thenature of cultural connections (Frachetti 2013: 292) that replace the earlier explanatorymodels of long distance migration supported by Kuz’mina (1986, 1994, 2007, 2008) andothers (e.g. Tkacheva & Tkachev 2008). The idea of ‘waves’ of eastward movement creatingnew regionalised ‘cultural clusters’ has been refuted, partly through emerging radiocarbonsequences as discussed above, but also through evidence for long-term localised regionaldevelopment, such as that documented by Frachetti in Semirech’ye from at least the midthird millennium cal BC (Frachetti 2008).
    http://www.kaogu.net.cn/uploads/soft...20170623y1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    india copper hoard near IVC:
    anthropomorph in 2000 bc sanauli, india:



    [Zeus formular]

    Deus or Ancient Greek Zeus > ancient chinese Tees > modern chinese Di( lord, son of sky or heaven)< altai petroglyph

    Ancient chinese character of sky (tian):


    Alain Thote, "Chinese coffins from the first millennium B.C. and early images of the afterworld," Res: Anthropology and aesthetics61-62 (Spring-Autumn 2012): 22-40.:
    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/do...urnalCode=res&

    Altai petroglyph:

    https://gitishow.com/u/p/mahta/5d2ac...86%DB%8C%D8%A7

    Zeus or not?


    One sample of early La Tène culture A from Putzenfeld am Dürrnberg, Hallein, Austria (ca 450–380 BC)


    scythian:
    www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CS%5CC%5CScythian%20warrior%20skeleton%20in%2 0Cherkasy%20Oblast%20Regional%20Studies%20Museum.j pg

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    same pattern and same artifacts in mycenaean and seima turbino:

    -> detailed goldwork grave 4 in grave circle a at mycenae:

    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Greec...tifulWowSm.jpg

    -> borodino treature if seima turbino:

    same pattern:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/4a3/...206ed76f92.png

    same artifacts:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Moreover, we can see snake moving patterns in mycenaean vase and ST snake daggers, which is same as thunder pattern. So snake can be replaced by thunderbolt of Zeus or Indra. We can find a eagle holding thunderbolt or snake. In other words,
    I think a snake dagger of seima turbino seems to be a thunderbolt.


    "The vajra in South American cultures


    In the new world we encounter a similar deadly lightning weapon used by the sky gods. In the Aztec culture there is the god Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli, with his weapon Xiuhcoatl, “ the fire serpent ”, killed his sister Coyolxauhqui soon after he was born. The Mayan rain deity Chaac and the later Aztec Tlaloc are both depicted carrying their lightning axe (Figure 6.). Sometimes they are depicted holding snakes, which represent lightning bolts, which they would hurl from the mountaintops where they made their retreat. In Peru, we find the god Illapa who is described as a man wielding a club in his left hand and a sling in his right."

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/arti...pon-war-008467

    same thing here okunevo:


    okunevo's third eye:


    shiva's third eye in ancient india:


    https://siberiantimes.com/science/ca...ive-americans/
    https://www.ancient.eu/image/4982/shiva/

    okunevo vs modern indian

    Last edited by johen; 10-09-19 at 18:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    there is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of central europe by the seima-turbino peoples. on bronze age settlements in saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [grimm, 1997]. in particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in slovakia, on settlements of the veterov, madjarovce and otomani cultures.they are known on unětice settlements very rarely.often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. sometimes there are pieces of skull. a cer-emonial mask found on the nitriansky hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [furmanek, jakab, 1997]. it should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of seima-turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. the connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from south-western poland, where, at the end of phase br a2, the nowagerekwia group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in slovakia. at this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. it was uncharacter-istic of unětice culture and is subsequently absent from trzciniec culture.
    scythian:

    [gorno-altaisk, russia—the siberian times reports that a 2,500-year-old grave from the pazyryk culture has been found in the altai mountains. the grave was looted in antiquity, but still contained the remains of an adult and a child or teenager, who had been buried with two small bronze mirrors, ceramics, gold foil, and wearing fur garments. their heads, however, had been removed and placed at their knees. nikita konstantinov of gorno-altaisk state university said the pazyryks often buried defeated enemies without their heads, since they made the skulls into bowls. “but this is obviously a different case,” he said. it is possible that the heads were detached when the grave was looted, but the rest of the skeletons remained undisturbed. konstantinov and his team will try to determine the age and sex of the skeletons, and study the cervical vertebrae to try to learn more about how the heads were removed. “we have no similar cases, so we need to investigate this one very thoroughly,” he said. to read more about the pazyryk culture, go to "iron age mummy." in the current issue]

    American indian:

    [a 3,000 year-old village discovered in central california has been found to contain an unusual set of burials — with more than a half dozen individuals buried without their heads, and nearly as many others buried intact, with an extra skull by their side. in two of the graves, the crowns of the severed skulls had even been fashioned into smooth, polished bowls.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    okunevo:
    for thousands of years the hopi tribe of northern arizona has performed a secretive, sacred ceremony that embodies the manifold and richly evocative archetypal nature of the serpent. in modern times the so-called snake dance ( tsu’tiki or tsu’tiva) has gained notoriety, partly because its participants put live snakes in their mouths and wrap them around their necks. the species, both venomous and non-venomous, might include garter snakes, gopher snakes, bull snakes, sidewinders, and even rattlesnakes.
    the hopi believe that their intimacy with rattlesnakes and other ophidian species engenders rainfall and fecundity upon the high desert.


    yu shi (traditional chinese: 雨師; simplified chinese: 雨师; pinyin: yǔ shī; "master of rain") is a chinese spirit or god of rain, also known as or conflated with red pine (chisong, 赤松, or, chisongzi – master red pine), among other names. translations of yu shi into english include "lord of rain" and "leader of rain".
    https://www.ancient-origins.net/hist...e-dance-009868
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Shi

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    ancient greek women vs ancient Xinjiang Province women

    "called the kangjiashimenji petroglyphs, these images of an ancient fertility ritual were discovered roughly 25 years ago by chinese archeologist wang binghua in the western xinjiang province. credit: jeannine davis-kimball/center for the study of eurasian nomads"

    "the faces appear caucasian or western and the images mirror some discovered 1,600 miles away in ukraine."
    From Iberia: kelt-iberian culture: Those ceramics you had show are very closest to celtiberian ones... Specially edetani ones, showed in the celtiberian heritage video, which are iberas (iberians from east) and thought as non indo-european culture.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=numantine

    Iberian sculptures / esculturas Iberas:

    Some pics of Iberian sculptures (esculturas iberas) taken by me at the Museo Arqueologico Nacional (MAN) de Madrid... IMO matriarchy in this society is evident. Pentax k-x, Pentax 18-55

    https://imgur.com/a/Z7Ad0O4

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    IMO iberos or iberian from the east of the peninsula were indo-europeans R1b spoken a foreigner language such the basque people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziober View Post
    From Iberia: kelt-iberian culture:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ight=numantine
    Pls visit the thread, you can see why Picasso was born over there:




    celtic:



    ^ neolithic lake baikal

    celtic Head motif stick top, II bc:


    India copper hoard Y crown (up) and Y sword (2,000 -1,500bc)



    celtic pottery:



    china bronze around 1,100bc:
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/05/18/...-china-to-life

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    same pattern and same artifacts in mycenaean and seima turbino:

    -> detailed goldwork grave 4 in grave circle a at mycenae:

    http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Greec...tifulWowSm.jpg

    -> borodino treature if seima turbino:

    same pattern:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/4a3/...206ed76f92.png

    same artifacts:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=12...WnODTUQ4dUDCAY
    same pattern in celtic serpent stone in scotlnad. It is a snake-moving pattern:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    celtic pottery:



    china bronze around 1,100bc:
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/05/18/...-china-to-life

    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    celtic:



    ^ neolithic lake baikal
    Altai people cannot be explained without Ring. They seem to be "Ring people." Their elites carried daggers as high-rank soldiers carry pistols. The dagger’s head is a Ring. This tradition started in seima turbino and continued in andronovo, karashuk, china bronze, the celts and even avar. Maybe simple mycenaean sword has also ring. This Ring culture seems to originate in lake baikal, which is directly connected to Hongshan burial. This people focuses even in ring of eye, although they have big almond eyes. I think this kind of ring culture cannot be found in any other place except mesoamerican culture. I think their body genes were changed, but they kept their culture. Ancient people's mind was ruled by their culture, not by their genetics.

    Neolithic lake baikal:


    okunevo culture:



    Human sacrifice dagger in shang china:




    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...-dagger-006277

    caucasoid mask from lop nur (tarim basin), china, 2000–1000 bce: compare okunevo one with large lips

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    The Borodino treasure of seima turbino culture in Historical museum, Russia.

    Triskele symbol on dagger seems to be connected to china bronze and the celts.
    (of course, the above snake-moving mark is related with mycenaean and the celts)

    Enlage picture in the link below and see one triskele mark on dagger:
    http://nav.shm.ru/upload/iblock/c19/...04b45ebc65.png
    american indian homecoming symbol

    "The homecoming symbol signified the return of a warrior. A number of ceremonies were held to welcome the brave warriors after the war was over. During festivals, homecoming dances were held for the warriors."


    https://historyplex.com/native-india...their-meanings

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How did sintashta culture survive? Seima turbino people attacked whole eurasia, but sintashta. If sintashta people was strong enough to defend against seima turbino, why were they stuck in east Ural?

    Anyway, two people seems to interact each other.


    [figure 86. materials from an aristocratic burial at zardcha khalifa in the zeravshan valley. (1) horse-head sceptre pin of bronze of the same type as those found in sintashta (4) [not to scale]. (2) two horse bits of bronze. (3) fragments of cheek-pieces of bone. modified from parpola and carpelan (2005), where images from bobomulloev 1997 and gening et al. 1992 are used.]

    horse-head in seima-turbino
    http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turk...kh2008Fig8.jpg

    arkaim statue in sintashta culture:
    www.ringingcedarsofrussia.org/theearth/oct12/arkaim-8.jpg

    same statue in seima at 20:
    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA19_13.pdf

    according to anthony:
    [the dating of the seima-turbino horizon has changed significantly in recent years. similarities between seima-turbino socketed spearheads and daggers and parallel objects in mycenaean tombs were once used to date the seima-turbino horizon to a period after 1650 bce. it is clear now, however, that mycenaean socketed spearheads, like studded disk cheekpieces, were derived from the east and not the other way around. seima-turbino and sintashta were partly contemporary, so seima-turbino probably began before 1900 bce.31 seima-turbino and sintasha graves had the same kinds of flint projectile points. sintashta forged socketed spearheads probably were the simpler predecessors of the more refined hollow-cast seima-turbino socketed spearheads. a hollow-cast spearhead of seima-turbino type was deposited in a petrovka-culture chariot grave at krivoe ozero (k. 2, gr. 1); and a sintashta bent and forged spearhead appeared in the seima-turbino cemetery at rostovka (gr. 1) (see figure 16.15). the metal-working techniques of the northern steppes (sintashta and petrovka) and the forest-steppe zone (seima-turbino) remained separate and distinct for perhaps one hundred to two hundred years. but by the beginning of the andronovo period they merged, and some important seima-turbino metal types, such as cast single-edged knives with a ring-pommel, became widely popular in andronovo communities.]
    1. Sintashta outlier WSHG R1a, Q1a and R1b might be seima turbino's Y-Hg like scythian;
    Arsenic bronze Sintashta was surrounded by tin bronze seima turbino. However, looks like seima turbino did not touch sintashta even if they butchered the other area. (Q1a china bronze, R1a india, R1b greek)

    2. bol'shemysskaya (4th millennium bc, P297 was found) ---> odinovo culture ---> elunino ST culture (Q was found. Its sword was found in erlitou culture and shimao pyramid in china)

    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Potapovka_o R1
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Potapovka R1a1a1b2a2a
    Central_Steppe_MLBA Zevakinskiy_BA R1a1a1b2a2a
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Sintashta_MLBA_o2 R1b1a1a2a2
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Sintashta_MLBA_o2 R1a1a1b2a2a
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Sintashta_MLBA_o1 R1b1a1a2
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Sintashta_MLBA_o1 Q1a
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Sintashta_MLBA_o1 Q1a2
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG_brother.I1057_brother.I1056 Sintashta_MLBA_o2 R1a1a
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG_brother.I1057_brother.I1058 Sintashta_MLBA_o2 R1a1a1b
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Dali_MLBA R1a1a1b2a2a
    Steppe_MLBA_oWSHG Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA_o R1a1a1b2a2a

    P-297:
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/p..._Tableau14.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post

    India copper hoard Y crown (up) and Y sword (2,000 -1,500bc)
    1. I think leaf and antenna symbolize life tree and deer antler. I think ancient shaman wore it. If they had technology, they would make it like sarmatian diadem below.




    2.Why did shaman wear the diadem? I think it is b/c shaman was a king at that time. Priest is the first class Royal in vedic caste system. The priest seems to be shaman, b/c they originated in steppe. Havard scholar K C Chang exactly understood shaman.


    in ancient times people could connect with the heavens through the shaman with this heaven and earth connection, those controlling this form of communication had the knowledge and power to rule. therefore, the shaman became an indispensable member at the royal court. in fact, often times the king was actually the leader of the shamans. the founder of china’s first three dynasties possessed shaman and supernatural abilities. for example, xiayu was able to stop and control huge flooding by using mysterious powers of his "pace of yu”, which became an important style for later shamans. another shaman was shang tang of the shang dynasty, could pray to the heavens for rain. furthermore, shaman houji could make his own crops grow and mature faster than others. such traditions have been confirmed in shang dynasty oracles. the oracle bone inscriptions noted: the shang king is the leader of the shamans. according to the inscriptions, the only holder of prophecy rights is shang king. it contained contents of the shang kings performing rain dances and dream interpretations, all of which were both shang king’s and shaman’s activities. this demonstrates that shang kings were indeed shamans. note: kc chang, qingtong huichen




    - Moses also veiled himself in front of people after he confronted God.

    3. The above shaman holds a drum composed of Circle (sky) and Cross. The Cross symbolizes A flying bird (crow) being a messenger from the Circle of sky or heaven. That is a shaman, a messenger from sky or heaven to connect heaven to earth. Ancient zhou king in China was called as a son of sky/heaven天子 , who thought he got a mandate from sky/ heaven天命.

    zhou horse burial:
    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...ot3_horses.jpg

    scyhtian horse burial:
    https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn....ythianhors.jpg
    Last edited by johen; 30-09-19 at 02:44.

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    meanders are common decorative elements in greek and roman art. in ancient greece they appear in many architectural friezes, and in bands on the pottery of ancient greece from the geometric period onwards. the design is common to the present-day in classicizing architecture. the meander is a fundamental design motif in regions far from a hellenic orbit: labyrinthine meanders ("thunder" pattern[3]) appear in bands and as infill on shang bronzes, and many traditional buildings in and around china still bear geometric designs almost identical to meanders



    http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/.../37149174.html


    Maybe the pattern originated in Mal’ta, an Upper Palaeolithic site, even if neolithic balkan and yangshao pottery have that patter.

    The most important thing is Malta's sunhead (maybe a concept of circle or mandala) and snake (concept of thunderbolt and fire cult) culture continued generation by generation.



    https://www.donsmaps.com/malta.html

    for example, a petroglyph of shaman sunhead:
    www.rupestre.net/tracce/1-11/bre21a.gif
    http://www.rupestre.net/tracce/?p=2065
    Last edited by johen; 04-10-19 at 23:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Altai people cannot be explained without Ring.

    Neolithic lake baikal:


    okunevo culture:



    Human sacrifice dagger in shang china:

    Greek eye and snake patterns:


    greek art circa 750-650 bce ... max dashu (the "geometric period," that is, the roots of classical greece)

    "Women dancing on Boiotian pot, circa 640 BCE. Note the locked hair and the serpents rising up between the dancers."
    https://www.suppressedhistories.net/...geometric.html

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