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Thread: aDNA does not indicate Native American ethnicities but mtDNA is B2

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27-FGC35133
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Awesome, Duarte! Finally! Congrats!
    @Angela
    Completely agree. She could be Italian.
    Thank you Regio
    “Às vezes ouço passar o vento; e só de ouvir o vento passar, vale a pena ter nascido”.
    Fernando Pessoa
    Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b > M269 > L23 > L51 > P310 > L151 > P312 > DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > BY2285 > BY25634 > FGC35133

  2. #52
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    B2

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    Country: Brazil



    aDNA does not indicate Native American ethnicities but mtDNA is B2

    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Duarte
    Sure, sure. The article certainly doesn't contradict the study. It's in fact based on the study:
    "Will Luo and colleagues’ findings affect the counselling of individuals carrying disease-causing mtDNA mutations who are considering having children? Not greatly, because paternal mitochondrial transmission seems to be exceedingly rare in humans."
    So exceedingly rare...

    Plus, as the article pointed out, the study apparently deal with the condition as a disease - mild or not, depending on each case. Yes, healthy individuals may have it, a situation that seems to be even rarer. It's just that, the way it was diffused in the media, it looked like it was just an uncommon situation without any implications. That's why the article states:
    "Be careful with the media coverage, which can omit several important facts such as the mitochondrial disease. Here are a few links, some of them a bit sensationalized by omitting the significant limitations:"
    This is what motivated my comment.

    The whole point, in short, is that you're a Brazilian with a typical Native American mtDNA, associated to traces of the related ancestry in autosomal. Where Occam's razor points to? mtDNA inheritance from father or a Iberian origin based on traces of B2 in Cataluña (less problematic than an inheritance from father though), while in theory possible, looks like unnecessary speculations here. It would affect each testee no matter the case, with no reason for so. Such speculations demand more than that imo. Point is that the answer looks way simpler, but I agree it's fun to do these mental exercises.
    Finally, I know you haven't said otherwise. :) At the end, we likely agree.

    Cheers.


    Dear friend Regio X. How are you? We haven't talked for a long time. I would just like to point out a little more about the presence of mongolian mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe (of course I do not have Maciamo's expertise) just to enrich the discussion on the subject.

    As I said in previous posts, my maternal lineage (grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother) is 100% Iberian. All of them Portuguese citizens. I met my great-grandmother (who died at 94) and also my grandmother (who died at 64).

    I loved to find out that I'm a B, although I expected something more downstream and not just a B2 whose age is estimated at 17,100 ybp by Y-Full.

    A Latin American like me could not be think it's weird to have a Native American mitochondrial haplogroup, and I am not be think it's weird. I'm just dealing with facts.

    I have a 100% Iberian maternal lineage and a Mongolian mitochondrial haplogroup (or Native American if you prefer).

    I recently discovered, right here in Eupedia, a Portuguese who has an Alan “Y” haplogroup (a post by Pax Augusta was essential for me to make this discovery). See the topic below:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39208-J1-ysc235


    The following grafts, obtained from Wikipedia in English, show that Alans and Huns had a visceral relationship during many centuries of history (at least until the early Middle Ages in Europe):

    "The name Alan is an Iranian dialectical form of Aryan. Possibly related to the Massagetae, the Alans have been connected by modern historians with the Central Asian Yancai and Aorsi of Chinese and Roman sources, respectively. Having migrated westwards and become dominant among the Sarmatians on the Pontic Steppe, they are mentioned by Roman sources in the 1st century AD. At the time, they had settled the region north of the Black Sea and frequently raided the Parthian Empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. From 215–250 AD, their power on the Pontic Steppe was broken by the Goths.

    Upon the Hunnic defeat of the Goths on the Pontic Steppe around 375 AD, many of the Alans migrated westwards along with various Germanic tribes. They crossed the Rhine in 406 AD along with the Vandals and Suebi, settling in Orléans and Valence.

    Around 409 AD, they joined the Vandals and Suebi in the crossing of the Pyrenees into the Iberian Peninsula, settling in Lusitania and Carthaginensis. The Iberian Alans were soundly defeated by the Visigoths in 418 AD and subsequently surrendered their authority to the Hasdingi Vandals.

    After the Gothic entry to the steppe, many of the Alans seem to have retreated eastwards towards the Don, where they seem to have established contacts with the Huns. Ammianus writes that the Alans were "somewhat like the Huns, but in their manner of life and their habits they are less savage." Jordanes contrasted them with the Huns, noting that the Alans "were their equals in battle, but unlike them in their civilisation, manners and appearance". In the late 4th century, Vegetius conflates Alans and Huns in his military treatise – Hunnorum Alannorumque natio, the "nation of Huns and Alans" – and collocates Goths, Huns and Alans, exemplo Gothorum et Alannorum Hunnorumque.

    The 4th century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus noted that the Alans were "formerly called Massagetae," while Dio Cassius wrote that "they are Massagetae." It is likely that the Alans were an amalgamation of various Iranian peoples, including Sarmatians, Massagetae and Sakas. Scholars have connected the Alans to the nomadic state of Yancai mentioned in Chinese sources. The Yancai are first mentioned in connection with late 2nd century BC diplomat Zhang Qian's travels in Chapter 123 of Shiji (whose author, Sima Qian, died c. 90 BC). The Yancai of Chinese records has again been equated with the Aorsi, a powerful Sarmatian tribe living between the Don River and the Aral Sea, mentioned in Roman records, in particular Strabo.

    Around 370, according to Ammianus, the peaceful relations between the Alans and Huns were broken, after the Huns attacked the Don Alans, killing many of them and establishing an alliance with the survivors. These Alans successfully invaded the Goths in 375 together with the Huns. They subsequently accompanied the Huns in their westward expansion.

    Following the Hunnic invasion in 370, other Alans, along with other Sarmatians, migrated westward. One of these Alan groups fought together with the Goths in the decisive Battle of Adrianople in 378 AD, in which emperor Valens was killed. As the Roman Empire continued to decline, the Alans split into various groups; some fought for the Romans while other joined the Huns, Visigoths or Ostrogoths. A portion of the western Alans joined the Vandals and the Suebi in their invasion of Roman Gaul. Gregory of Tours mentions in his Liber historiae Francorum ("Book of Frankish History") that the Alan king Respendial saved the day for the Vandals in an armed encounter with the Franks at the crossing of the Rhine on December 31, 406). According to Gregory, another group of Alans, led by Goar, crossed the Rhine at the same time, but immediately joined the Romans and settled in Gaul.
    Under Beorgor (Beorgor rex Alanorum), they moved throughout Gaul, till the reign of Petronius Maximus, when they crossed the Alps in the winter of 464, into Liguria, but were there defeated, and Beorgor slain, by Ricimer, commander of the Emperor's forces.

    In 442, after it became clear to Aetius that he could no longer rely upon the Huns for support, he turned to Goar and convinced him to move some of his people to settlements in the Orleanais in order to control the bacaudae of Armorica and to keep the Visigoths from expanding their territories northward across the Loire. Goar settled a substantial number of his followers in the Orleanais and the area to the north and personally moved his own capital to the city of Orleans.

    Under Goar, they allied with the Burgundians led by Gundaharius, with whom they installed the Emperor Jovinus as usurper. Under Goar's successor Sangiban, the Alans of Orléans played a critical role in repelling the invasion of Attila the Hun at the Battle of Châlons. In 463 the Alans defeated the Goths at the battle of Orléans, and they later defeated the Franks led by Childeric in 466.

    Around 502-503 Clovis attacked Armorica and but he was defeated by the Alans, however the Alans, who, like Clovis, were Christians, desired cordial relations with him to counterbalance the hostile Arian Visigoths who coveted the land north of the Loire. Therefore, an accord was arranged by which
    Clovis came to rule the various peoples of Armorica and the military strength of the area was integrated into the Merovingian military.

    Following the fortunes of the Vandals and Suebi into the Iberian peninsula (Hispania, comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409, the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of Lusitania and Carthaginensis. The Kingdom of the Alans was among the first Barbarian kingdoms to be founded. The Siling Vandals settled in Baetica, the Suebi in coastal Gallaecia, and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia. Although the newcomers controlled Hispania they were still a tiny minority among a larger Hispano-Roman population, approximately 200,000 out of 6,000,000.

    In 418 (or 426 according to some authors), the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths, and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans dissolved. Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later the rulers of the Vandal Kingdom in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").

    There are some vestiges of the Alans in Portugal, namely in Alenquer (whose name may be Germanic for the Temple of the Alans, from "Alan Kerk", and whose castle may have been established by them; the Alaunt is still represented in that city's coat of arms), in the construction of the castles of Torres Vedras and Almourol, and in the city walls of Lisbon, where vestiges of their presence may be found under the foundations of the Church of Santa Luzia.

    In the Iberian peninsula the Alans settled in Lusitania (Alentejo) and the Cartaginense provinces.

    The Alans who remained under Hunnic rule founded a powerful kingdom in the North Caucasus in the Middle Ages, which ended with the Mongol invasions in the 13th century AD. These Alans are said to be the ancestors of the modern Ossetians.

    The Alans spoke an Eastern Iranian language which derived from Scytho-Sarmatian and which in turn evolved into modern Ossetian."


    My "Y" haplogroup (R-DF27) has very high frequencies in areas where mongolic mitochondrial haplogroups have been found in Western Europe (Catalonia, Vendée and Charente-Maritime, Rhone Valley - in a possible ancient association with the Huns/Alans):




    Needless to say about the remarkable presence of the Alans in Portugal, who founded, there, the first barbarian kingdom in Western Europe.

    I love being a mitochondrial Xavante (although I have no confirmation of any clade downstream of the B2 subclade), but I can't rule out being a mitochondrial descendant of an ancient Alan/Hun mestizo woman, I think.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Duarte; 05-11-19 at 20:24.

  3. #53
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post


    Dear friend Regio X. How are you? We haven't talked for a long time. I would just like to point out a little more about the presence of mongolian mitochondrial haplogroups in Europe (of course I do not have Maciamo's expertise) just to enrich the discussion on the subject.

    As I said in previous posts, my maternal lineage (grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother) is 100% Iberian. All of them Portuguese citizens. I met my great-grandmother (who died at 94) and also my grandmother (who died at 64).

    I loved to find out that I'm a B, although I expected something more downstream and not just a B2 whose age is estimated at 17,100 ybp by Y-Full.

    A Latin American like me could not be think it's weird to have a Native American mitochondrial haplogroup, and I am not be think it's weird. I'm just dealing with facts.

    I have a 100% Iberian maternal lineage and a Mongolian mitochondrial haplogroup (or Native American if you prefer).

    I recently discovered, right here in Eupedia, a Portuguese who has an Alan “Y” haplogroup (a post by Pax Augusta was essential for me to make this discovery). See the topic below:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39208-J1-ysc235


    The following grafts, obtained from Wikipedia in English, show that Alans and Huns had a visceral relationship during many centuries of history (at least until the early Middle Ages in Europe):

    "The name Alan is an Iranian dialectical form of Aryan. Possibly related to the Massagetae, the Alans have been connected by modern historians with the Central Asian Yancai and Aorsi of Chinese and Roman sources, respectively. Having migrated westwards and become dominant among the Sarmatians on the Pontic Steppe, they are mentioned by Roman sources in the 1st century AD. At the time, they had settled the region north of the Black Sea and frequently raided the Parthian Empire and the Caucasian provinces of the Roman Empire. From 215–250 AD, their power on the Pontic Steppe was broken by the Goths.

    Upon the Hunnic defeat of the Goths on the Pontic Steppe around 375 AD, many of the Alans migrated westwards along with various Germanic tribes. They crossed the Rhine in 406 AD along with the Vandals and Suebi, settling in Orléans and Valence.

    Around 409 AD, they joined the Vandals and Suebi in the crossing of the Pyrenees into the Iberian Peninsula, settling in Lusitania and Carthaginensis. The Iberian Alans were soundly defeated by the Visigoths in 418 AD and subsequently surrendered their authority to the Hasdingi Vandals.

    After the Gothic entry to the steppe, many of the Alans seem to have retreated eastwards towards the Don, where they seem to have established contacts with the Huns. Ammianus writes that the Alans were "somewhat like the Huns, but in their manner of life and their habits they are less savage." Jordanes contrasted them with the Huns, noting that the Alans "were their equals in battle, but unlike them in their civilisation, manners and appearance". In the late 4th century, Vegetius conflates Alans and Huns in his military treatise – Hunnorum Alannorumque natio, the "nation of Huns and Alans" – and collocates Goths, Huns and Alans, exemplo Gothorum et Alannorum Hunnorumque.

    The 4th century Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus noted that the Alans were "formerly called Massagetae," while Dio Cassius wrote that "they are Massagetae." It is likely that the Alans were an amalgamation of various Iranian peoples, including Sarmatians, Massagetae and Sakas. Scholars have connected the Alans to the nomadic state of Yancai mentioned in Chinese sources. The Yancai are first mentioned in connection with late 2nd century BC diplomat Zhang Qian's travels in Chapter 123 of Shiji (whose author, Sima Qian, died c. 90 BC). The Yancai of Chinese records has again been equated with the Aorsi, a powerful Sarmatian tribe living between the Don River and the Aral Sea, mentioned in Roman records, in particular Strabo.

    Around 370, according to Ammianus, the peaceful relations between the Alans and Huns were broken, after the Huns attacked the Don Alans, killing many of them and establishing an alliance with the survivors. These Alans successfully invaded the Goths in 375 together with the Huns. They subsequently accompanied the Huns in their westward expansion.

    Following the Hunnic invasion in 370, other Alans, along with other Sarmatians, migrated westward. One of these Alan groups fought together with the Goths in the decisive Battle of Adrianople in 378 AD, in which emperor Valens was killed. As the Roman Empire continued to decline, the Alans split into various groups; some fought for the Romans while other joined the Huns, Visigoths or Ostrogoths. A portion of the western Alans joined the Vandals and the Suebi in their invasion of Roman Gaul. Gregory of Tours mentions in his Liber historiae Francorum ("Book of Frankish History") that the Alan king Respendial saved the day for the Vandals in an armed encounter with the Franks at the crossing of the Rhine on December 31, 406). According to Gregory, another group of Alans, led by Goar, crossed the Rhine at the same time, but immediately joined the Romans and settled in Gaul.
    Under Beorgor (Beorgor rex Alanorum), they moved throughout Gaul, till the reign of Petronius Maximus, when they crossed the Alps in the winter of 464, into Liguria, but were there defeated, and Beorgor slain, by Ricimer, commander of the Emperor's forces.

    In 442, after it became clear to Aetius that he could no longer rely upon the Huns for support, he turned to Goar and convinced him to move some of his people to settlements in the Orleanais in order to control the bacaudae of Armorica and to keep the Visigoths from expanding their territories northward across the Loire. Goar settled a substantial number of his followers in the Orleanais and the area to the north and personally moved his own capital to the city of Orleans.

    Under Goar, they allied with the Burgundians led by Gundaharius, with whom they installed the Emperor Jovinus as usurper. Under Goar's successor Sangiban, the Alans of Orléans played a critical role in repelling the invasion of Attila the Hun at the Battle of Châlons. In 463 the Alans defeated the Goths at the battle of Orléans, and they later defeated the Franks led by Childeric in 466.

    Around 502-503 Clovis attacked Armorica and but he was defeated by the Alans, however the Alans, who, like Clovis, were Christians, desired cordial relations with him to counterbalance the hostile Arian Visigoths who coveted the land north of the Loire. Therefore, an accord was arranged by which
    Clovis came to rule the various peoples of Armorica and the military strength of the area was integrated into the Merovingian military.

    Following the fortunes of the Vandals and Suebi into the Iberian peninsula (Hispania, comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409, the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of Lusitania and Carthaginensis. The Kingdom of the Alans was among the first Barbarian kingdoms to be founded. The Siling Vandals settled in Baetica, the Suebi in coastal Gallaecia, and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia. Although the newcomers controlled Hispania they were still a tiny minority among a larger Hispano-Roman population, approximately 200,000 out of 6,000,000.

    In 418 (or 426 according to some authors), the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths, and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans dissolved. Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later the rulers of the Vandal Kingdom in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").

    There are some vestiges of the Alans in Portugal, namely in Alenquer (whose name may be Germanic for the Temple of the Alans, from "Alan Kerk", and whose castle may have been established by them; the Alaunt is still represented in that city's coat of arms), in the construction of the castles of Torres Vedras and Almourol, and in the city walls of Lisbon, where vestiges of their presence may be found under the foundations of the Church of Santa Luzia.

    In the Iberian peninsula the Alans settled in Lusitania (Alentejo) and the Cartaginense provinces.

    The Alans who remained under Hunnic rule founded a powerful kingdom in the North Caucasus in the Middle Ages, which ended with the Mongol invasions in the 13th century AD. These Alans are said to be the ancestors of the modern Ossetians.

    The Alans spoke an Eastern Iranian language which derived from Scytho-Sarmatian and which in turn evolved into modern Ossetian."


    My "Y" haplogroup (R-DF27) has very high frequencies in areas where mongolic mitochondrial haplogroups have been found in Western Europe (Catalonia, Vendée and Charente-Maritime, Rhone Valley - in a possible ancient association with the Huns/Alans):




    Needless to say about the remarkable presence of the Alans in Portugal, who founded, there, the first barbarian kingdom in Western Europe.

    I love being a mitochondrial Xavante (although I have no confirmation of any clade downstream of the B2 subclade), but I can't rule out being a mitochondrial descendant of an ancient Alan/Hun mestizo woman, I think.

    Cheers
    Hi, Duarte. Fine here. What about you?
    Yes, an Iberian B would make more sense than father inheritance.
    As I said, it looked more likely it was Native, because you do have traces of NA in Autosomal, and because you're Brazilian, but you're saying this recent matrilineal ancestor was 100% Portuguese, without adoption in the line. That changes things, I agree.
    As you said, currently you're just B2, so you certainly have additional mutations that may form new branches below it, and these new branches will likely help to solve this "mistery". So let's wait the next chapters of mtDNA phylogeny. :)

    Cheers

  4. #54
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27-FGC35133
    MtDNA haplogroup
    B2

    Ethnic group
    Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Hi, Duarte. Fine here. What about you?
    Yes, an Iberian B would make more sense than father inheritance.
    As I said, it looked more likely it was Native, because you do have traces of NA in Autosomal, and because you're Brazilian, but you're saying this recent matrilineal ancestor was 100% Portuguese, without adoption in the line. That changes things, I agree.
    As you said, currently you're just B2, so you certainly have additional mutations that may form new branches below it, and these new branches will likely help to solve this "mistery". So let's wait the next chapters of mtDNA phylogeny. :)

    Cheers
    I'm fine Regio, thanks. Let's look forward to the upcoming season of the "My Weird Mitochondrial DNA" TV series on NETFLIX. I hope there are not many seasons. LOL

  5. #55
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF27-FGC35133
    MtDNA haplogroup
    B2

    Ethnic group
    Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    aDNA does not indicate Native American ethnicities but mtDNA is B2

    I think that the migration of Alans to Hispania, joining themselves to Suebis and Vandals in this migration, can explain many of these autosomal matches displayed by MTA:














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