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Thread: Is there a connection between G-L497 and metallurgy?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L497
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b

    Ethnic group
    Halstatt Celtic
    Country: United States



    Is there a connection between G-L497 and metallurgy?

    G-L30 could represent a Old Europe/LBK/pre-PIE-Halstatt cultural horizon in which mountainous blacksmithing was invented, the dominant artisans amongst them being brought into the PIE nobility early on due to their ability to craft armor and weapons for the nobility hence explaining the prevalence of R1b + G-L497 (originally from Romania) all across the PIE horizon from Ireland to India. While G2a was wiped out wholesale, it was also the only haplogroup to be integrated into the horselord nobility and moved around with R1b. Why?

    Is it possible that bronze smelting was invented by G-L497 members of the Danube region near Romania/Ukraine and that the PIE's, being sophisticated "barbarians" saw this technology as absolutely essential, transforming them from man on large equestrian beast to armored man with space-age weaponry on equestrian beast thus giving the PIE's the last piece of the puzzle they needed to achieve complete dominance over anyone they encountered? Domestication of the horse doesn't give them that initial advantage on its own. Remember, PIE's are famous for forcing the entrance of the Bronze Age not the Horse Age. In fact, I think the explanation that they were constantly in their saddles 24/7 might be a bit simplistic. We know artisans were higher than farmers on the social structure with blacksmiths having to be at the top of the artisans just below warriors with many being warriors themselves. Blacksmiths most likely traveled with their shops in ox-drawn covered wagons. Again, you can't have the Bronze Age without blacksmithing. This isn't meteoric iron or copper or gold here. It takes an advanced process as well as the necessary materials, knowledge, and time to perfect the art over centuries before we see "Bronze Age Horse Warriors with Bronze Armor and Weapons".

    If this theory is true it would explain the following:

    1) Old Europe to Proto-Sumerian connection leading to Sumerian cuneiform but more importantly here, the Chalcolithic to Bronze Age transition for both the PIE's and the Sumerians (cuneiform tablets could contain smelting instructions, otherwise is a completely different topic). As much as I hate the written word and think it to be stale the second it hits the page, I will be the first to admit that ledger keeping, laws, and technical instructions should be transmitted via written word because too much info about physical processes needs to be conveyed. Think: "King XYZ declined your offer to wed his daughter. Sorry, sire" vs "here is a blacksmithing schematic/lesson on how to heat up a forge on this clay tablet here". So I do admit that cuneiform writing invented by the Vinca culture and transmitted to the Proto-Sumerian horizon could have actually been the missing sauce in terms of G-L497's survival. However, I would like to focus this discussion on blacksmithing not on the invention of writing.

    2) Why G2a was wiped clean off the face of the earth but survived as G-L497 and practically nothing else outside of the Caucasus. Most G2a clades are G-L497. Eupedia even makes a huge point in bold on the G2a site about how thoroughly G2a was annihilated with the exception of this one clade. Sure G2a might be 10% of Europe today but something like 90% of that 10% is G2a-L497 (Proto-Indo-European G2a clade).

    3) Why there is only 1 haplogroup besides clades of R1b and R1a seen in the horse lord nobility descendants from Ireland to India. This indicates a very early culture fusion between G2a-L497 and R1b/R1a. Now the question is: Why did this one clade get spared?

    4) The Hallstatt culture (G2a-L497 + R1b at western end of Danubian/Dinaric/Alpine cultural horizon) and its focus on mining and smithing which led to all of the known West European PIE descendant traditions with the big players in the room being the Celts and Romans. Keep in mind that the Romans post Gaius Marius had their Legionnaires as blacksmiths, construction workers, and soldiers and recruited heavily from mountainous areas known to be inhabited by G2as like the Rhaetians or former Etruscan settlements. In fact, the highest areas of recruitment for legionaires were from the mountains east of the Latium (which have the highest concentration of extant pre-indo-european G2a) and the Rhaetians in the Alps. See my post about G2a mountainous homeland theory: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...high-altitudes

    5) Iron smelting. After bronze smelting was invented around the Danube area, Iron smelting pops up in use by the Hittites and/or other Anatolian people like the Hurrians or Hattians. Regardless, Anatolia is right on the cusp of Old Europe and the Danube area. Furthermore, Collin Renfew aside, the Anatolian Hypothesis might be partially true in the sense that PIE's probably went West to Germany and South to Anatolia around the same time as is evidenced by the weird Anatolian branches of the PIE language. "PIE's go south from Danube to Anatolia and become Hittites" "Hittites = R1b elite lording over G2a's, E1b1b's, J2's, and possibly some T's and J1's" - sounds mighty similar to exactly what seems to have happened in the Danube region.

    When we talk about Y chromosomal haplogroups or even maternal DNA, we know entire civilizations can be started by a single haplogroup tribe. We're not even going that far here with this assumption. I'm only saying that a clade of G2a-L497 came from a mountainous region near the Carpathian Mountains and was either the inventor or an extremely early adopter of metallurgical blacksmithing and thus were held in high-esteem by some wave of invading martial Indo-European horselords and thus G2a-L497 was spared and integrated into Indo-European nobility early on due to their *initial* augmentative abilities as blacksmiths. From there, they became indistinguishable from the R1b's and R1a's and the rest is history.

    The only other places where we don't see complete wipe out of indigenous people and integration into some strata of Indo-European nobility is in Scandinavia with I1. I suspect the Indo-Europeans bumped into a culturally Proto Finno-Ugric, genetically Mesolithic Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer population that had a respectable warlike boat culture which was highly synergistic with the culture of the Indo-Europeans and/or were physical monsters but regardless survived both the Neolithic population replacement by G2as first and then later waves of R1a then R1b's for some reason just like the G-L497's survived and integrated for some "unknown" reason. Other surviving haplogroups tend to fall outside the sphere of PIE influence or can be explained by late PIE exposure like the G2a + I2 population Sardinia which was not colonized by the Romans until very late (but still had a mountainous culture which built over 7000 Nuraghe fortresses on the sides of mountains [again my mountain origin theory of G2a: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...high-altitudes]). Finns and other Ugric peoples, Basques, etc. However, these are the outliers and I look to other explanations for the survival of G-L497 as it seems to be the odd haplogroup of the "black sheep" haplogroups of Europe: G2a/I1/I2/J2/E1b1b

    The idea is to shed light on why G-L497 was spared and held in high-esteem. Was it due to their metallurgical skills? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this matter.
    Last edited by PaterKeklos; 03-09-19 at 17:45.

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    It's an interesting thought and really comes down to if the L497's were assimilated vs massacred by the R1b invaders. We have an idea that L497 or equivalent subclades left Anatolia around 7,000 BC and were a main haplogroup of the Old Europe Neolithic Vinca and then Chalcolithic Baden culture (the oldest L497 is the Hungarian sample Z1815 from 3,300-2,850 BC). I would think that if an assimilation happened we would/will see a sample from the Cucuteni Trypillian culture further to the east but unfortunately the L42 sample from Ukraine was removed. Also, there is the Berger Tyrol study showing some valleys with L497 percentages up to 80%, so wouldn't this tend towards a retreat into the Alps? And we have the Mitterkirchen "royal" burial from 800 BC and the "Roman" soldier from Munich dated to 300 AD which I believe shows a Celtic link with the former and Rhaetian link with the latter. So when did the assimilation happen? Looking at the L497 subclade explosion of 2,600 BC I think that would be the time. Was it not until then that metal weaponry really was used? Maybe there was the retreat from the Hungarian plains, into the Alps when the R1b invaders first came and then the assimilation was much later in the iron age? All good to think about...

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    It is an interesting thought, But in my opinion something like discovering bronze technology would give a significant boost to the fertility and population of a group so If G2a anywhere west of Bosporus discovered the bronze today's Europe would be overrun with G2a. So who's more likely to have discovered the technology ? it's the group that profited the most or "the most improved" subclade of the early bronze age. Which would be PIE. It's really difficult to tell why L497 ended up the way it did but if I were to guess I'd look more into thrift and usefulness. Perhaps engineering or agricultural superiority kept them going where other G2a's went extinct or perhaps they were the first to run to the mountains while others decided to stay and fight.

    This is the way I make sense of all the mess:

    PIE migrate west with bronze, high population, little knowledge of architecture or sedentary lifestyle

    They come across Sedentary G2a who depend on their agriculture but can't defend it because they don't have the numbers, mobility or weapons. If PIEs keep plundering their crops and burning their homes G2a have no other option then to run and find more defensible home a.i the mountains. they unlike PIE already know how to survive harsh mountains so they survive by becoming more efficient. The status quo after the initial encounter is PIE taking over the vast majority of the lowlands whereas G2a rule the mountains because steppe PIE have no idea how to survive up there.

    After this the PIE start changing to the sedentary lifestyle where they need more agriculture, architecture and generally better organization, Who would know that better than G2a's? It's likely that later on G2a survival skills became more valuable hence the more crafty G2a's join the PIE groups and eventually rise to the top of the pyramid. Again the usefulness of a person would be highly valued in those societies and no one would be more useful to a transforming nomads than someone who can raise better crops and build better homes for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G2ian View Post
    It is an interesting thought, But in my opinion something like discovering bronze technology would give a significant boost to the fertility and population of a group so If G2a anywhere west of Bosporus discovered the bronze today's Europe would be overrun with G2a. So who's more likely to have discovered the technology ? it's the group that profited the most or "the most improved" subclade of the early bronze age. Which would be PIE. It's really difficult to tell why L497 ended up the way it did but if I were to guess I'd look more into thrift and usefulness. Perhaps engineering or agricultural superiority kept them going where other G2a's went extinct or perhaps they were the first to run to the mountains while others decided to stay and fight.

    This is the way I make sense of all the mess:

    PIE migrate west with bronze, high population, little knowledge of architecture or sedentary lifestyle

    They come across Sedentary G2a who depend on their agriculture but can't defend it because they don't have the numbers, mobility or weapons. If PIEs keep plundering their crops and burning their homes G2a have no other option then to run and find more defensible home a.i the mountains. they unlike PIE already know how to survive harsh mountains so they survive by becoming more efficient. The status quo after the initial encounter is PIE taking over the vast majority of the lowlands whereas G2a rule the mountains because steppe PIE have no idea how to survive up there.

    After this the PIE start changing to the sedentary lifestyle where they need more agriculture, architecture and generally better organization, Who would know that better than G2a's? It's likely that later on G2a survival skills became more valuable hence the more crafty G2a's join the PIE groups and eventually rise to the top of the pyramid. Again the usefulness of a person would be highly valued in those societies and no one would be more useful to a transforming nomads than someone who can raise better crops and build better homes for them.
    The problem with this is that G-L497 is seen with the earliest expansions of both R1b and R1a from Ireland to Scandinavia (no Romans) to Persia to India so it was an early dispersal somewhere near the PIE homeland.

    The rest of the G2a subgroups are subject to the mountain retreat hypothesis, just not G-L497 and subclades specifically.

    Also, it is known that the Vinca were the first to actually smelt copper with some theories having it in Anatolia (more of the same kind of people). We don't see expansionist tendencies with the G2a's post copper smelting.

    Flash forward to the end of the Bronze Age and you see Iron being invented in this same region and again not being used by them but first being used in warfare by the Hittites, an Indo European tribe. Could the same not have happened in the Bronze Age with the Old Europeans giving Bronze metallurgy to the Proto-Indo-European horse warriors and the elite blacksmith clan(s) surviving on as a necessary cog in the Proto-Indo-European horselord war machine as G-L497?

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    Well this all sounds very interesting if it wasn't for the poor information that you have to use.
    I've been attacked insulted and called names on here for my suggestions about the tin used coming from Britain to kick start the bronze age.

    I said how do you know western Europeans didn't invent bronze ? We had the boats, We had the trade network, and we had the tin.
    I think its a given now that people on large boats arrived in Britain 10,000 years ago. just as easy to sail 1 back no ?

    I also explained how the sack of troy happened in the uk and the change of hands of the tin mines directly caused the bronze age to collapse.

    Well I have some news for you people. The bully's and name callers, and here it is :)

    Google the enigma of bronze age tin, you have a choice of about 10 different sites, Here's 1.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0913120830.htm

    Its all British tin there you have it, Thank you and good night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O Neill View Post
    Well this all sounds very interesting if it wasn't for the poor information that you have to use.
    I've been attacked insulted and called names on here for my suggestions about the tin used coming from Britain to kick start the bronze age.

    I said how do you know western Europeans didn't invent bronze ? We had the boats, We had the trade network, and we had the tin.
    I think its a given now that people on large boats arrived in Britain 10,000 years ago. just as easy to sail 1 back no ?

    I also explained how the sack of troy happened in the uk and the change of hands of the tin mines directly caused the bronze age to collapse.

    Well I have some news for you people. The bully's and name callers, and here it is :)

    Google the enigma of bronze age tin, you have a choice of about 10 different sites, Here's 1.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0913120830.htm

    Its all British tin there you have it, Thank you and good night.
    I was under the impression this was common knowledge. Or perhaps it was the "old R1b Refugium" theory where everyone in Western Europe was an R1b Basque speaker and everyone in Eastern Europe was a R1a "Finno-Ugric" speakers. Anyhow, it was believed that the R1b speakers "got Bronze technology through osmosis from East to West" and tin coming from West to East culminating in the Hallstatt Culture and the birth place of Continental Celts etc and that the tin was distributed in a maritime "Atlantic Wall" pattern with the British Isles being the epicenter. So revival of part of this Atlantic Wall thing minus the silly "Basque/Ukrainian Glacial Refugium = R1b/R1a" part?

    It certainly feels this way by the time the Celts emerge on the mainland. Insular Celtic areas like the British Isles were less developed and could have served as tin harvesting "colonies" to the Insular Celts and Gauls.

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    I do not think that the haplogroup is decisive in the discovery of metallurgy, but rather the potter who had necessarily appeared to keep the crops. The processing of copper was discovered by chance, as a by-product of the process of obtaining clay vessels that required high temperatures at which copper could be separated from minerals. It is true that 8000-4700 years ago there was a high frequency of G2a sub-haplogroups in the Vinca and Cucuteni cultures, in which, due to the advanced pottery technology, the oldest bronze ornaments and tools also appear.

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