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Thread: R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    I can't see it. I don't understand how south slavs have so much more i2a than r1a yet albanians have roughly equal, some places have higher r1a than i2a whereas some places like kosova have more i2a than r1a which proves more a bit Slavic input into that particular region of albanians. Also doesn't Bulgaria have more r1a than South slavs yet much less i2a than them?
    For me r1a had to have come either before the initial Slavic invasion OR after. Where did North r1a come from, which race exactly were they before the vikings took over? Or did they come after the vikings controlled that land?
    i2a invaded Europe and the places where they killed off other races for i2a to become the majority are the true south Slavic nations. This doesn't mean they had to kill everyone, it just meant they needed to be the majority power just like i2a is in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc. As for r1a travelling with the slavs maybe it did but long after the slavs settled in europe and assimilated r1a's around them (so the eastern European clade you're talking about), the ones they left alive. This would make r1a indo European but I don't know which race.
    Another theory is that majority i2a came first to Europe during the initial Slavic invasions and then they brought r1a's along with them years later to fill up the newly won land. Maybe after this "peace" period albanians and other balkan countries were more willing to accept slavs (with the new r1a's) but I give this theory a 2/10 because the figures clearly don't add up.
    As for Asian r1a it would be nice to know which countries have them most but I reckon the ottoman were mostly j1 anyway, they were continuing the Arab conquests their ancestors had started prior. And you do find a bit of j1 in balkans because of it and especially turkey where its a lot more (10%).
    It would be great if someone could make charts of all the major r1a sub clades to make things a bit easier.
    Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

    They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

    Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

    As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

    Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

    Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

    The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

    Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

    So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Ottoman Turks were not mainly J1. Where did you get that?

    They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.

    Also, J1 has quiet a bit of diversity in Albanians despite how few the samples are. And some of them have huge TMRCA’s which have nothing to do recently with Ottomans.

    As far as R1a/I2a, as Kelmendasi said, bottlenecks can cause the frequencies of haplogroup a to grow/decline over time. Now, of course not all R1a/I2a is from Slavs. But it all depends on the subclades.

    Some r1a clades are more common than others region to region. Illyri’s clade is not really common at all. Despite its parent possibly being a Balto-Slav. It shows, like Dibra cluster, a subclade that is not common or widespread among Slavs. Think of it like a staircase with each step representing a forefather.

    Some clades were more commonly participating in the Slavic migration whilst others could have sprinkled out earlier or later explaining their absence amongst a wider demographic.

    The most common L1029 clade in southslavs for instance is YP417. Yet, the most common L1029 in northern Greeks is YP263. It doesn’t mean that they are separate cultures. It just means the early wave of L1029 men to Greece were predominantly YP263. Every clade represents a forefather. The more diverse clades are in a population is usually a good indication of where the line originated or moved in mass.

    Of course Goths, Bastarnae, and even Antes mercenaries that protected the Danube limes for Rome all carried R1a either originally or via assimilation in their movements.

    So naturally some isolated clades may exist. This doesn’t change the general origin of these lineages around Central/Eastern Europe. Also, majority of the clades are not like these isolated cases. Ergo, typical of the Slavic expansions.
    I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
    The majority of J2a in Southern Albania, and Albania as a whole, doesn't seem to be of Ottoman Turkish input. Most seems to be of possible Latin origin with others probably being local Balkan lineages that were carried by Illyrians and other locals, a small amount is of Greek origin as well.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I think Turks were mostly J2a. South ALBANIA get lots of it.
    This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

    For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

    Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

    "In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."

  5. #30
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    This is off topic again but ottoman (osman, uthman etc) were mostly arabs in terms of their father lines, j1 become a big group in middle East from prior arab expansion before ottoman era. Initially they were j1 + j2a + Asian r1a before they started deploying balkan men. J2a was common in Greece, Turkey and parts of Middle east so some would have been j2a too but j2a would have been in South albania from byzantine era anyway. There is no such thing as Turkish ethnicity, they were just greeks with some iranian/middle eastern input from the east and minimal turkic input. THEN they had 10% arab input.

    For me most J1 in Albania, Greece, Bulgaria, serbia, Bosnia etc is from ottoman era until j1 is found in balkans before ottoman period, has it been found? Also, as for several different sub clades, how does mutation work and why does it happen?

    Also arabs broke into Greece before ottoman period:

    "In 904, the Arabs sacked Thessaloniki, their greatest achievement in Greece, while four years later they were defeated by Byzantine general Himerios in the Aegean.[2] Nikephoros Phokas noted in 961 the increase of Arabs in Greece."
    It's very clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Things have been explained to you very clearly but you choose not to understand, you can carry on typing nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever. The J1 isn't from the Ottoman era, no evidence supports that it came then. Most of it came between the Bronze Age and Roman era, with some even possibly coming in during the Neolithic or earlier (as is the case for J-Y19093). Also the Ottoman dynasty wasn't Arab but Turkic in origin.
    You seem to have an obsession with linking J1 with Arabs, but you fail to understand that only 1 large clade under P58 can be linked to them, that clade is FGC11. Even some lineages under FGC11 aren't Arab but pre-Arabic, the Balkans is lacking in Arabic clades.
    We have already derailed this thread enough, open up another thread if you wish to carry on discussing.

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    R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    They have it sure. However, as far as I have seen(including the recent Macedonia study that samples over 100 Turks) they seem to belong to some variety of J2a. J1 in them is not the same as in Albanians.
    Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?
    I am interested to read about it since Macedonia is the only Balkan country for which I get a percentage higher than 2% in FTDNA's YDNA Ancestral Origins (12 markers, exact match), while with 25 and 37 markers, I have just Albania but at only 0,3 % (genetic distance -1 and -4). Though I do not fully understand how significant these percentages can be.
    Last edited by Illyri; 07-09-19 at 18:56.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Can you please post a reference of/or a link to this Macedonia Study ?
    It is here.

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    Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Can someone explain to me why Bosnia has almost 3x i2a over r1a and why bulgaria has equal of both.
    I do not know for sure but the reasons can be multiple (genetic drift, bottlenecks, more or less succesful expansions after the 7th century). Besides, we also have to take into account that the original genetic make up of said tribes was not identical (which is also reflected by the frequencies and deep subclades present today). Besides, it is worth noting that Slavs and proto-Bulgarians were distinct tribes, although they arrived in Bulgaria almost at the same time. The initial homeland of the proto-Bulgarians was in the foothills of Pamir and Hindu Kush (Balhara for the Indians/Bactria for the Greeks), which could justify some Y DNA differences. Subsequently, they founded their European realms (i) Old Great Bulgaria between the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea and the Dnieper River, (ii) Volga-Kama Bulgaria and (iii) Danubian Bulgaria (Asparukh).

    According to Primorac 2011, Bosnian males have 50 % of Hg I and 13,7 % of R1a (while in Croatia, Hg I represents 49 % of the fatherlines and Hg R1a 27 %). In summary, the authors write that:

    (i) Hg I (mutation P37) is very ancient in Europe (25'000 ybp);
    (ii) it expanded from a Western LGM refugium in the Balkans; and
    (iii) it likely contributed to the post LGM peopling of Bosnia and Croatia.

    I personally think that this reasoning is not convincing, in terms of continuity, if you look at the young age of the deep subclades present in those territories and at their limited diversity.

    Croatia.jpg

    Regarding R1a, the authors state that this Hg was possibly introduced in Croatia from the Northern part of Eastern Europe through the widespread of the Corded Ware cultures (3200/2300 BC) down through the more recent Slavic expansions. Finally, they conclude that R1a is the second most frequent haplogroup in the mainland and island populations, which implies that at least some of the founding ancestral groups of Croats originated from populations having possibly migrated from southern Russia 2000 ybp. As for the lower R1a frequency in Bosnia, the authors simply conclude that the Bosnian population shows a smaller portion of genes for the Ukranian refugium.

    From what I see in Karachanak's study of 2013, Bulgarians have 20,2 % of I-M423, 18,1 % of E-V13 and 17,5 % of R1a (described in the supporting information as R-M17, 43 % of which being R-M458). The authors write about Bulgarian R1a that this haplogroup could be a signal of various events ranging from early post LGM expansions to more recent Slavic demography.

    As I wrote earlier, it all depends from the specific subclades and their age.
    Last edited by Illyri; 08-09-19 at 21:14. Reason: Adding information

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