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Thread: R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

  1. #51
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-07-19
    Posts
    62

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-YP3994

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"
    So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+
    Thanks Trojet.

    Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).

    By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?
    Last edited by Illyri; 08-08-20 at 10:22.

  2. #52
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    359

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Thanks Trojet.
    Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).
    By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?
    Yes, based on current research, they are parallel lines, literally brothers that descend from an ancestor who lived between 1930 and 2500 ybp, defined by R-Y2902. At YFull, there is currently 15 of them, as each R-Y2902* forms an independent lineage from the others. Since current NGS technology on average detects a SNP for every three generations, they should've occurred within 100 years. And so it's possible that many of them are in fact descended from one brother who subsequently had multiple sons, and the current technology cannot detect a SNP that joins them. Hopefully future NGS technology will allow the detection of a SNP for every generations. Anyway, this points to a huge demographic expansion of R-Y2902 and its immediate descendants.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  3. #53
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    17-09-20
    Posts
    2


    Country: USA - Idaho



    Hello, I appreciate your discussions. I don't have anything to contribute toward your quest but I'm on a similar quest.

    My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

    The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.

    One other interesting note is, the Genographic 2.0 study indicated R-M417 from Central Asia is the ancestral lineage for one of the Ashkenazi Levite founding lines. Probably you are aware of this. I don't know to what degree this connects to our more recent ancestry.

    Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.

  4. #54
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-07-19
    Posts
    62

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-YP3994

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Olyve View Post
    The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.
    Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?

  5. #55
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-07-19
    Posts
    62

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-YP3994

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyve View Post
    My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

    Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.
    My fatherline has been present in Gjirokastër during at least two centuries (I need to do some research in the ottoman defters to go further back in time). It is now present in various city districts and we have no records about coming from elsewhere. The TMRCA with the other Albanian (from Gumenica) and the Sicilian (from Palermo) on yfull is around 1350 ybp. This estimate might give a rough idea about the time when the founder of the lineage arrived in the Balkans.

    I do not know what my ancestors did for a living in the remote past. Before the communist regime, they used to transport goods on trade routes between Gjirokastër and other cities.

    On your side, do you know how your ancestor sustained himself ? Do you know the name of the village he came came from ?
    Last edited by Illyri; 23-09-20 at 21:51.

  6. #56
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    17-09-20
    Posts
    2


    Country: USA - Idaho



    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?
    Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?

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