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Thread: R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"
    So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+
    Thanks Trojet.

    Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).

    By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?
    Last edited by Illyri; 08-08-20 at 10:22.

  2. #52
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Thanks Trojet.
    Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).
    By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?
    Yes, based on current research, they are parallel lines, literally brothers that descend from an ancestor who lived between 1930 and 2500 ybp, defined by R-Y2902. At YFull, there is currently 15 of them, as each R-Y2902* forms an independent lineage from the others. Since current NGS technology on average detects a SNP for every three generations, they should've occurred within 100 years. And so it's possible that many of them are in fact descended from one brother who subsequently had multiple sons, and the current technology cannot detect a SNP that joins them. Hopefully future NGS technology will allow the detection of a SNP for every generations. Anyway, this points to a huge demographic expansion of R-Y2902 and its immediate descendants.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Hello, I appreciate your discussions. I don't have anything to contribute toward your quest but I'm on a similar quest.

    My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

    The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.

    One other interesting note is, the Genographic 2.0 study indicated R-M417 from Central Asia is the ancestral lineage for one of the Ashkenazi Levite founding lines. Probably you are aware of this. I don't know to what degree this connects to our more recent ancestry.

    Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olyve View Post
    The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.
    Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?

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    R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyve View Post
    My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

    Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.
    My fatherline has been present in Gjirokastër during at least two centuries (I need to do some research in the ottoman defters to go further back in time). It is now present in various city districts and we have no records about coming from elsewhere. The TMRCA with the other Albanian (from Gumenica) and the Sicilian (from Palermo) on yfull is around 1350 ybp. This estimate might give a rough idea about the time when the founder of the lineage arrived in the Balkans.

    I do not know what my ancestors did for a living in the remote past. Before the communist regime, they used to transport goods on trade routes between Gjirokastër and other cities.

    On your side, do you know how your ancestor sustained himself ? Do you know the name of the village he came came from ?
    Last edited by Illyri; 23-09-20 at 21:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?
    Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olyve View Post
    Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?
    Hi Olyve, from what I know the region called Epirus - including the mountains of Suli - was settled long before the 16th century.

    Among Albanians (and I do not know if the same logic would apply in your case), the lastname would correspond to your father's name or clan name. When someone's lastname refers to a region/town/village, it means that he migrated somewhere else and was called by his place of origin by his new neighbours (to remember the fact that he does not stem from the place where he lives). If we use this logic in your case, it would mean that your ancestor left Suli to settle somewhere else in Greece - which I believe was the case of many Suliots - before migrating to America.

    I am not sure what you mean by "(enslaved) Slavic group". I never read about enslaved Slavs in Southern Albania / Northern Greece.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Guys, just one question:

    Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:

    Why couldn't them be dacian?

    It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.

    We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.

    It makes sense tho, that:

    1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.

    2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.

    Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

    And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

    What are the main challenges to my suggestion?

    Thanks in advance.

  9. #59
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    [...]

    Gannicus, Dacians might have had their share of I2a and R1a (which remains to be proved by ancient samples) but I believe that there are a few objections to your hypothesis.

    Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
    Why couldn't them be dacian?


    First of all, it would be necessary to specify the similar clades between Romanians/Moldavians and Albanians ? This would certainly help the discussion because comparing at I2a/R1a level is not very meaningful.
    I am not an expert on Romanian/Moldavian genetics and a scientific paper would certainly help. What I can say on the similiarity argument (for R1a) concerns my own clade and it is not present in Romania/Moldova. It is pretty much the same for its parent branch R-Y2902 which has only scarce presence in Romania/Moldova (0,52% of the samples in FTDNA and only a couple of predicted lineages in the R-Y1392 project of FTDNA ). In view of this I would say that the similarity is limited and that if the Romanian/Moldavian territories where the place of origin of R-Y2902, I would expect to find more presence and diversity there.

    It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
    We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.


    There are known cases where language and genetics do not correspond. I am not an expert in linguistics but there is also slavic influence in the romanian language. For instance, their word for yes is "da". In short, I do not think that this is a solid argument.

    It makes sense tho, that:
    1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.


    First, an Avar sample is not Dacian (at least to my knowledge). Besides, it is debated whether that "avar" sample (SZ1-R1a Z93) is really from the migration period or a bronze age sample (in short, it was not labelled as such in the scientific paper, it seemed to be an ancestor to other (older) samples and it did not match with the two other avar samples found there). But more important, there was no massive Ostrogothic come back to Southern Balkans (neither to Romania / Bulgaria) after settling in Pannonia. Whatever R1a/I2a lineages the Goths might have brought to the Balkans, I think that they would have assimilated them before settling to Pannonia, i.e. during their migration from Scandinavia to the Black Sea and then to the Dabube. That being said, it is true that the Goths formed a polyethnic confederation. In his History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram mentions that their community comprised Finns, Slavs, Antes, Heruli, Alans, Huns, Taifali, Sarmatians, Aesti, Bastarnae and Romanized Daco-Carpian groups.

    2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans. Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

    If the South Slavs assimilated those lineages during their migration to the Balkans they would logically be absent in common Slavs. Then arises the question of knowing who brought them to the North (Poland, Baltic, etc.) and to the East (Russia) ? Finally, what would be the original South Slavic lineages then ? As you might know, R1a and I2a are major haplogroups among Croats, Bosnians and Serbs (at least in terms of frequency).

    And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

    I have no knowledge of a recorded Dacian migration to Illyricum/Albania. Be it as it may, ancient samples and current figures (frequencies, TMRCAs and diversity) do not support your hypothesis. Today, R1a and I2a are a minority among modern Albanian lineages. If they were to be the "original" Albanians, then why did they shrink and which people brought the dominant haplogroups between Albanians (E-V13, R-Z2103 and J-L283), and the Albanian language in the Northern mountains of Albania which are barely accessible ?
    Last edited by Illyri; 02-01-21 at 12:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Guys, just one question:
    Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
    Why couldn't them be dacian?
    It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
    We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.
    It makes sense tho, that:
    1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.
    2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.
    Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.
    And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?
    What are the main challenges to my suggestion?
    Thanks in advance.
    Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too

    Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

    I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years

    Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.

    Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs

    The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share

    As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half

  11. #61
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.
    Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European.
    According to Rrënjet, Albanians have 7,4% R1a lineages, with little difference between North (6,6%) and South (8,6 %). 3 % are under M458, 2 % under CTS1211 and 2,2 % unspecified M417 (most likely to be shared among the two precedents). I do not think that you can draw up a real distinction between Z280 and M458, since both were found in central Europe long before the Slavic ethnogenesis. Z280 was found in an ancient sample (1086 BC) in Germany (Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld). There is no real difference with the M458 (MX265) ancient sample found in Switzerland.

    Besides, if you read the last study about the Viking world, you will see that there are several Viking samples under CTS1211, one of them (VK274 - 1000 ybp) falling under Y2902 (more precisely PH3519). So based upon ancient DNA, the Normans could also be a possible origin for the South Albanian CTS1211.

    Finally, if you look at the TMRCA of the Albanian subclades under L1029, you will not find any figures predating the 7th century. So it is not really possible to distinguish between Slavic and pre-Slavic.
    Last edited by Illyri; 01-01-21 at 19:27.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    [...]

    Gannicus, Dacians might have had their share of I2a and R1a (which remains to be proved by ancient samples) but I believe that there are a few objections to your hypothesis.

    Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
    Why couldn't them be dacian?


    First of all, it would be necessary to specify the similar clades between Romanians/Moldavians and Albanians ? This would certainly help the discussion because comparing at I2a/R1a level is not very meaningful.
    I am not an expert on Romanian/Moldavian genetics and a scientific paper would certainly help. What I can say on the similiarity argument (for R1a) concerns my own clade and it is not present in Romania/Moldova. It is pretty much the same for its parent branch R-Y2902 which has only scarce presence in Romania/Moldova (0,52% of the samples in FTDNA and only a couple of predicted lineages in the R-Y1392 project of FTDNA ). In view of this I would say that the similarity is limited and that if the Romanian/Moldavian territories where the place of origin of R-Y2902, I would expect to find more presence and diversity there.

    It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
    We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.


    There are known cases where language and genetics do not correspond. I am not an expert in linguistics but there is also slavic influence in the romanian language. For instance, their word for yes is "da". In short, I do not think that this is a solid argument.

    It makes sense tho, that:
    1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.


    First, an Avar sample is not Dacian (at least to my knowledge). Besides, it is debated whether that "avar" sample (SZ1-R1a Z93) is really from the migration period or a bronze age sample (in short, it was not labelled as such in the scientific paper, it seemed to be an ancestor to other (older) samples and it did not match with the two other avar samples found there). But more important, there was not massive Ostrogothic come back to Southern Balkans (neither to Romania / Bulgaria) after settling in Pannonia. Whatever R1a/I2a lineages the Goths might have brought to the Balkans, I think that they would have assimilated them before settling to Pannonia, i.e. during their migration from Scandinavia to the Black Sea and then to the Dabube. That being said, it is true that the Goths formed a polyethnic confederation. In his History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram mentions that their community comprised Finns, Slavs, Antes, Heruli, Alans, Huns, Taifali, Sarmatians, Aesti, Bastarnae and Romanized Daco-Carpian groups.

    2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans. Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

    If the South Slavs assimilated those lineages during their migration to the Balkans they would logically be absent in common Slavs. Then arises the question of knowing who brought them to the North (Poland, Baltic, etc.) and to the East (Russia) ? Finally, what would be the original South Slavic lineages then ? As you might know, R1a and I2a are major haplogroups among Croats, Bosnians and Serbs (at least in terms of frequency).

    And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

    I have no knowledge of a recorded Dacian migration to Illyricum/Albania. Be it as it may, ancient samples and current figures (frequencies, TMRCAs and diversity) do not support your hypothesis. Today, R1a and I2a are a minority among modern Albanian lineages. If they were to be the "original" Albanians, then why did they shrink and which people brought the dominant haplogroups between Albanians (E-V13, R-Z2103 and J-L283), and the Albanian language in the Northern mountains of Albania which are barely accessible ?
    Amazingly helpful post, flm vëlla :)

    You are right, I just wanted to stress this possibility as much as I could, to see if it stood any chance, but as we can see it's very unlikely, wich is a good thing, as it makes the circle of the possible suspect ancestors of the albanians get narrower and therefore make us get closer to the truth.

    I know it has been rejected since long time, but it is good to verify if anything changed from the last time, maybe thanks to some new study.

    It really makes me sad to see the lack of interest from western scholars towards this region and the people that live here, wich sadly leaves too much space to local scholars (wich is no bad per se) but also pseudo-scholars, activists masked as experts and what not.

    Well, sorry for having gone off topic, let's get back to R1a.

    So in conclusion the best hypothesis is germanized slav? Like it's the case for Dibran's R1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too

    Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

    I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years

    Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.

    Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs

    The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share

    As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half

    Thank you very much for the reply, really appreciate it.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to spread false information, I just wanted to stress out as much as possible this possibility.

    My problem is I can't really find much information online, the internet is such an amazing platform but it is very hard for me to find quality info.

    So, for this, know that your links are very appreciated :)

    As for my dacian suggestion, and the R1a and I2a that could potentially be dacian: (talking about that 3-4% that is not slavic)

    I believe the main indicator it is not originally albanian is that it's found more among tosks than gegs, the latter being considered overall more well preserved genetically, although it could be due to genetic drifts, as we are talking about 1-2% differences, something very negligible.

    Could also be germanic populations that inhabited parts of the balkans in the pre-roman period, who knows.


    Little question: what are the most updated studies on illyrian, thracian, dacian and ancient greek genetics?
    I can't find anything, dunno if it's me or the lack of material on the internet.

    Also what about generic studies about ancient populations as a hole.

    It would be amazing if we could adress the "tuscan" autosomal links with albanians, also see with what ancient populations albanians wouold score closer today. (Although we already have a vague idea, just i'd like to research this better)

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Well, sorry for having gone off topic, let's get back to R1a.
    So in conclusion the best hypothesis is germanized slav? Like it's the case for Dibran's R1a?
    Thank you too. I would say it is one of the possibilities (Slav, Goth or Norman see post # 61 above) but modern distribution and the limited number of samples positive for YP3994 do not allow to hold it as the best. Perhaps new studies (if I am not wrong a massive study for central Europe is supposed to be released soon) and/or new bearers who will go through deep testing will allow to be more precise in the futur. In this respect, a third Albanian (another guy from Çamëria) was tested positive for YP3994 (through snp testing). Hopefully, he will go through deep testing this year, which could be interesting as he shows certain differences in the STR results.
    Last edited by Illyri; 01-01-21 at 19:23.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Gannicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    Thank you too. I would say it is one on the possibilities (Slav, Goth or Norman see post # 61 above).
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too
    Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
    Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years
    Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.
    Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs
    The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share
    As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half
    Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
    What striked me was:
    How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
    How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
    How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
    How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
    How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
    What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
    Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.

  16. #66
    Regular Member Gannicus's Avatar
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    Btw, I don't wanna sound like someone scared of external haplos like that Fustan guy was.
    I value people on the basis of their values not haplogroups xD, just i'm curious to figure this stuff out.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
    What striked me was:
    How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
    How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
    How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
    How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
    How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
    What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
    Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.
    It is not a good idea to look at things in such detail when it comes to kosovar albanians, macedonian albanians or even tosk albanians because individually these groups have not had enough tests so the results are skewed. Best to look at the whole picture for now until we get more results.

    Right now we can see that north albanians have more j2b l283 whereas south albanians have more foreign influence. Because of this initially I suspected south albania had more ottoman migrants but then saw arbereshe figures (pre ottoman south albanians) and they had even more slavic/greek y dna already as well as italian. So could be a case of south albania being a mix of albanians + epirus (albanians & greeks) though not sure how so much south slavic y dna made its way to south albania and even more in greece! Also, there was this in south albania -

    "Apollonia flourished under Roman rule and was noted by Cicero in his Philippicae as magna urbs et gravis, a great and important city. Christianity was established in the city at an early stage, and bishops from Apollonia were present during the First Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451)."

    I don't think any country in europe has 90% of continuous y dna over last 2000 years.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    According to Rrënjet, Albanians have 7,4% R1a lineages, with little difference between North (6,6%) and South (8,6 %). 3 % are under M458, 2 % under CTS1211 and 2,2 % unspecified M417 (most likely to be shared among the two precedents). I do not think that you can draw up a real distinction between Z280 and M458, since both were found in central Europe long before the Slavic ethnogenesis. Z280 was found in an ancient sample (1086 BC) in Germany (Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld). There is no real difference with the M458 (MX265) ancient sample found in Switzerland.
    Besides, if you read the last study about the Viking world, you will see that there are several Viking samples under CTS1211, one of them (VK274 - 1000 ybp) falling under Y2902 (more precisely PH3519). So based upon ancient DNA, the Normans could also be a possible origin for the South Albanian CTS1211.
    Finally, if you look at the TMRCA of the Albanian subclades under L1029, you will not find any figures predating the 7th century. So it is not really possible to distinguish between Slavic and pre-Slavic.
    Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?

    Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?

  19. #69
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gannicus View Post
    Wow bro, I paid a visit to gjenetika.com
    What striked me was:
    How clean kosovars were on the 3 main haplogroups.
    How low macedonian albanians were on E1b-V13
    How low we tosk are on J2b (wich really struck me)
    How little external haplos montenegro albanians had (only I1 and J2a if i'm not mistaken)
    How high on R1a and I2a greek albanians were (although you'd expect it)
    What I don't understand is, why on average albanians got a good 20-25% of little percentages of many different external haplos (J1c, J2a, G2a, T1a, etc) instead of having a good 90% of E-V13, J2b and R1b.
    Ofcourse albanians weren't so static genetically, as we all would think + some of these (like T1a) are surely here from ancient times, but it makes me say hatsoff to our brothers in vuksanlekaj, plavë and, guci for how well preserved they are, a real time capsule for how albanians likely were.
    According to a peer reviewed scientific paper from 2019, Albanians in Macedonia have ~35% of E-V13, somewhere ~18% R1b and ~13.6% J2b2.

    This paper is more reliable. :)

    A total of 314 individuals representing the three major ethno-linguistic groups (ethnic Macedonians, Albanians and Turks) in the Republic of North Macedonia were analyzed for Y-SNPs and Y-STRs using minisequencing and fragment analysis. The haplogroup composition differed remarkably between the three groups with dominance of haplogroup I2 in ethnic Macedonians (28.1%), E1b in Albanians (35.3%) and J2a (34.9%) in Turks, respectively. The haplotype analysis using the YFilerPlus kit disclosed a significant reduction in diversity values (DC, GD) for the Turkish subgroup compared to the Macedonian and Albanian speaking populations. The Y-STR based population analysis revealed a similarity of ethnic Macedonians with neighboring Serbians and Bulgarians. The same holds true for the Albanian speakers from Macedonia and Albania, whereas the Turkish minority in North Macedonia stands apart from the population in Turkey.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497319301097




  20. #70
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?
    Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?

    They both were involved with Slavic and atypically non Slavic migrations. In the Iron age things could have been different.
    As far as the Balkans M458 only peaks in Bulgarians(7-8%). In other South Slavs its only between 3-5%. Most of that is L1029. And under L1029, YP417 and YP263 dominante(with more in YP417).

    Most R1a in Balkan Slavs is Z280 dominant(more diversity). Bulgarians have a 60/40 split Z280>M458. Macedonians probably being somewhat comparable.

    L1029 is highest in South East Slavs. M458 outside the Balkans is most diverse among Western Slavs. Though 60+%of M458 among Poles is mostly L260.

    Based solely on FTDNA block tree, this is the heatmap for R-L1029.



    As for ancient DNA. Other than MX265 from Switzerland; an upcoming La Tene sample from Iron Age Czech/Bohemia was L1029(in peer review).

    All samples thereafter fall in post-migration Northern Europe. Be they Slavic, Viking or German.

    Based on diversity it likely originated or diversified somewhere around Central/Central East Europe. So far neither M458 sample predating late antiquity are Slavic.
    It remains to be seen whether L1029 in IA Bohemia will split L1029 and be an outlier on the tree or if its on the same level. If its truly La Tene then they likely lived closer to the current TMRCA so its not impossible.

    Regardless I think M458 along with I-Y3120 were originally pre-Slavic that became Proto-Slavic and spread from late antiquity onward.
    Z280 is more complex. Some branches are Baltic. Some are possibly Germanic(basal branches) and others are linked with Balto-Slavs. But Balto-Slavic is long before "Slavic" and "Baltic" separated from each other.
    Here you can find some heatmaps for Z280 subclades.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....phically/page5

  21. #71
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illyri View Post
    ....
    Here's a heatmap of Y2902 based on ftdna samples.


  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Are you able to find a strong amount of L1029 in south slavs, what percentage of R1a in south slavs carry L1029?
    Dibran answered your question much better than I could and I thank him for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Do you suggest it more likely to be a south slavic migration marker than z280?
    No. I suggest that, at least for the time being, it is not possible to splitt them like you did.

    Besides, it makes no sense to make such a categorization with +4500 years old SNPs (formed long before the Slavic ethnogenesis). You have to look at the terminal subclades, their current distribution, age, etc. For instance, if you look at the Dibra cluster (R-Y133361) for me it is a typical Albanian subclade (whose ancestor might well have been germanic independent from paralell subclades).

    Although they seem based on frequencies (and as such might be biaised to some extent), the heatmaps posted by Dibran are helpful to visualize possible migration patterns. As you can see, both R-L1029 and R-Y2902 are not very frequent within South Slavs except Bulgarians. I think that, as regards their distribution in Southern Balkans, they have more similarities than differences.
    Last edited by Illyri; 02-01-21 at 12:13.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Here's a heatmap of Y2902 based on ftdna samples.
    Thanks for the map. Helpful as always.
    How did you generate it ?
    Can you make one for my terminal subclade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    They both were involved with Slavic and atypically non Slavic migrations. In the Iron age things could have been different.
    As far as the Balkans M458 only peaks in Bulgarians(7-8%). In other South Slavs its only between 3-5%. Most of that is L1029. And under L1029, YP417 and YP263 dominante(with more in YP417).
    Most R1a in Balkan Slavs is Z280 dominant(more diversity). Bulgarians have a 60/40 split Z280>M458. Macedonians probably being somewhat comparable.
    L1029 is highest in South East Slavs. M458 outside the Balkans is most diverse among Western Slavs. Though 60+%of M458 among Poles is mostly L260.
    Based solely on FTDNA block tree, this is the heatmap for R-L1029.

    As for ancient DNA. Other than MX265 from Switzerland; an upcoming La Tene sample from Iron Age Czech/Bohemia was L1029(in peer review).
    All samples thereafter fall in post-migration Northern Europe. Be they Slavic, Viking or German.
    Based on diversity it likely originated or diversified somewhere around Central/Central East Europe. So far neither M458 sample predating late antiquity are Slavic.
    It remains to be seen whether L1029 in IA Bohemia will split L1029 and be an outlier on the tree or if its on the same level. If its truly La Tene then they likely lived closer to the current TMRCA so its not impossible.
    Regardless I think M458 along with I-Y3120 were originally pre-Slavic that became Proto-Slavic and spread from late antiquity onward.
    Z280 is more complex. Some branches are Baltic. Some are possibly Germanic(basal branches) and others are linked with Balto-Slavs. But Balto-Slavic is long before "Slavic" and "Baltic" separated from each other.
    Here you can find some heatmaps for Z280 subclades.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....phically/page5
    Wow, these are odd maps - from these maps it is hard to argue for any of these being proto south slavic yet they carry plenty today. And surely south slavs carried some of these clades when moving into balkans, it would be cool to know which ones are likeliest. In terms of r1a subclade ratio, how would you sum up the south slavic figures using poreklo? Do they have a major group that stands out above the others?

    As for L1029 what do you think is the explanation for this? Is Thracian likely or is it simply a Polish clade? What history can back up this link between the 2 regions. The Thracians were definitely in that area of Bulgaria and others that may have been further north and west could have fled down to this region during the south slavic invasions as a stronghold. Though as we see today there are still small amount of L1029 scattered throughout balkans
    Last edited by TaktikatEMalet; 02-01-21 at 04:24.

  25. #75
    Regular Member Gannicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It is not a good idea to look at things in such detail when it comes to kosovar albanians, macedonian albanians or even tosk albanians because individually these groups have not had enough tests so the results are skewed. Best to look at the whole picture for now until we get more results.

    Right now we can see that north albanians have more j2b l283 whereas south albanians have more foreign influence. Because of this initially I suspected south albania had more ottoman migrants but then saw arbereshe figures (pre ottoman south albanians) and they had even more slavic/greek y dna already as well as italian. So could be a case of south albania being a mix of albanians + epirus (albanians & greeks) though not sure how so much south slavic y dna made its way to south albania and even more in greece! Also, there was this in south albania -

    "Apollonia flourished under Roman rule and was noted by Cicero in his Philippicae as magna urbs et gravis, a great and important city. Christianity was established in the city at an early stage, and bishops from Apollonia were present during the First Council of Ephesus (431) and the Council of Chalcedon (451)."

    I don't think any country in europe has 90% of continuous y dna over last 2000 years.
    Wow, very interesting stuff, thank you for sharing.

    It's very interesting, we tosks are quite mixed (although not as much as some people try to fantacize)

    Speaking as a 12.5% vlach, and having suspects my mother is partially goranje (muslim slav) and coming from poliçan, I am directly affected by this, wich is definitely not a bad thing.

    If i'm not mistaken, they say racial diversity increases the genetic richness of a population and consequently it's health (correct me if i'm wrong)

    This is one of the reasons why italy is one of the healthiest countries of the world and experiences such a long life expectancy.

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