R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

Should be around 1500ybp. Not sure thought what’s the case with the hidden sample, you could potentially be closer to him.

Anyway, the Sicilian looks like is with origin from the Balkans. Might be Arberesh.

Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.
 
Would it help to upload the data to Yfull ?
The Sicilian could be arberesh. I found someone with the same family name leading some arberesh fighters during the Italian revolution.
Yes, upload it there as well. Lately though they have been slacking around, but I think it's still worth it to purchase their analysis.
 
R1a-CTS1211-CTS8816-Y2902 - YP3994

I saw in the recent paper « Ancient Rome : A genetic crossroad... » that Haplogroup R1a (+J1 & E1b) was present in Rome and/or its surroundings during the Imperial period 27-300 BCE (see Supp. Materials, p. 12) and Figure S5.
It is not found anymore in Late Antiquity and during the Medieval period.
View attachment Figure S5.pdf
 
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It says there was a substantial Ancestry shift towards Eastern Mediterranean / Near East.

In the S2 table, I could find :

> R-F1345 (under Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122).
> R-M207 (but it seems it is R2a);

But neither the article nor the Supp. Materials say anything specific about R1a and how it arrived in Rome.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
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On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.
 
On Yfull R-Y2902's TMRCA was recently reduced from 2400 to 2000.
Can someone explain what has changed in their age estimation method ?
There must be a reason but I do not understand it since the figures given by some of its subclades are older than 2000.

If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.
 
An upgrade from Hg19 to Hg38 would also change the TMRC slightly.
 
R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

If I'm not mistaken I think its determined by average of the total estimate. Perhaps some new added samples lowered the average.

This happens constantly with my line. Basal L1029 has jumped between 1950-2150ybp.

Right now it's at 2100. May drop back to 2000 with new samples. It all depends. Michal, a project admin of R1a says the accurate TMRCAs are 15% older than yfull estimates. So it could be 2000-2300 years.

Thanks Dibran. I also thought that this had to do with new samples and the average age. I have seen your L-1029's age changing a bit over the last months and I would also expect the estimation to change +/- 50/100 years but not 400 years at once. In the case of R-Y2902 the average figure did not change significantly. I had a look on the age calculation on Yfull and it seems the change did not occur because of new samples since the average number of every sample gives a figure higher than 2000. So it does not seem to be a purely arithmetical issue.

I remember that previously Yfull calculated R-Y2902's TMRCA based upon the age of its daughter R-Y3226, which is around 2500 years. Even today, some subclades of R-Y2902 have higher TMRCA's based upon the samples (for example R-Y35192 > 2277 years or R-YP1144 > 2389 years) than their forming age (2000 ybp).

This is what I fail to understand and the reason why I asked if they changed something in their method.
 
With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-Y3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?
 
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With the last update a few days ago, R-Y2902's TMRCA jumped 500 years in the past (without addition of a significant number of new samples, just based upon R-3226's TMRCA). It is now 2500 ybp. Does anyone understand why ?

Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"

So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+
 
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Yup, it looks like they made the change to 2500 ybp based on subclade R-Y3226. When clicking "info" next to R-Y2902 TMRCA, towards the bottom it says: "NOTE: Age estimation has been taken from downstream subclade R-Y3226, its age estimation is more (2500 > 1930)"
So basically they're saying its TMRCA cannot be less than the estimated TMRCA of one of its descending lineages. I don't know which one in reality would be more accurate, but I tend to think the average of all descending lineages, especially if there is 10+

Thanks Trojet.

Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).

By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?
 
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Thanks Trojet.
Yfull changed the TMRCA of R-Y2902 from 2400 ybp to 2000 ybp 4 months ago. And now they reversed it with no clear reason. In FTDNA's R1a-Y1392 Project they write that the branch's age is around 2500 years (and they have more subclades and samples than yfull, but perhaps they also rely on yfull's calculations).
By the way, I am aware that these TMRCA's calculations are only approximative estimates but could it be that the first lineage to split from the parent branch dit it 2500 ybp and the last 1930 ybp ? The MRCA could not have all the subsequent parallel mutations, which must have occurred in different carriers and not necessarily at the same time. Perhaps I do not get this right, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the 12 first ancestors (founders) of R-Y2902 subclades lived between 2500 ybp and 1930 ybp ?

Yes, based on current research, they are parallel lines, literally brothers that descend from an ancestor who lived between 1930 and 2500 ybp, defined by R-Y2902. At YFull, there is currently 15 of them, as each R-Y2902* forms an independent lineage from the others. Since current NGS technology on average detects a SNP for every three generations, they should've occurred within 100 years. And so it's possible that many of them are in fact descended from one brother who subsequently had multiple sons, and the current technology cannot detect a SNP that joins them. Hopefully future NGS technology will allow the detection of a SNP for every generations. Anyway, this points to a huge demographic expansion of R-Y2902 and its immediate descendants.
 
Hello, I appreciate your discussions. I don't have anything to contribute toward your quest but I'm on a similar quest.

My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.

One other interesting note is, the Genographic 2.0 study indicated R-M417 from Central Asia is the ancestral lineage for one of the Ashkenazi Levite founding lines. Probably you are aware of this. I don't know to what degree this connects to our more recent ancestry.

Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.
 
The Genographic 2.0 test and subsequent upload to Familytree identifies our Y haplogroup as R-YP321. The last SNP tested is positive for CTS1211; the immediate SNPs downstream (not tested) are CTS8816, Y2902 at RY1392 and YP3994. I think we could be distantly (but sort of closely) related.

Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?
 
R1a-CTS1211 > CTS8816 > Y2902 > YP3994 in Albania and in the Balkans

My paternal Grandfather immigrated from Greece to US in early 1900s. The family story is that his ancestor(s) came from the mountains of Epirus on today's border of Albania and Greece and his surname derives from that region. We have reliable information that his ancestor left Epirus at least 400 years ago.

Your lineage history interests me. Do you know how many generations of your father's family lived in Albania and how they sustained themselves? Thank you for sharing.

My fatherline has been present in Gjirokastër during at least two centuries (I need to do some research in the ottoman defters to go further back in time). It is now present in various city districts and we have no records about coming from elsewhere. The TMRCA with the other Albanian (from Gumenica) and the Sicilian (from Palermo) on yfull is around 1350 ybp. This estimate might give a rough idea about the time when the founder of the lineage arrived in the Balkans.

I do not know what my ancestors did for a living in the remote past. Before the communist regime, they used to transport goods on trade routes between Gjirokastër and other cities.

On your side, do you know how your ancestor sustained himself ? Do you know the name of the village he came came from ?
 
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Based on current estimates our lineages are 4200 years distant from each other if you are confirmed YP321. I guess this is quite distant in time (although the geographical distance is much smaller). There are several distinct lineages under CTS1211 present in Albania. I assume it is the same for northern Greece. Have you thought about testing other SNPs to find your terminal subclade ?

Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?
 
Illyri, thank you for your comments. I'm completely new to this process; I have much to learn. I do hope to test more SNPs with time, to get more information and when I do, I'll share the information. Our family story is our fatherline came from the rugged mountains of Souli. In the book, Epirus, 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization, the authors state this region was transected by shepherds with their herds long before there were settlements; shepherds began to settle the region in the mid sixteenth century. It states these settlers came from southern Albania and the plains of Thesprotia and the Souliots were "a mixture of Greeks and Hellenized Albanians". I found reading about the Vlachs to be really interesting and wondered if our family may have been among the Vlachs. Interesting to me is, our family name was adopted from Souli and is shared by many other families. If anyone has thoughts on possible reasons for (what seems to me) this late adoption of our surname, I am interested. Is this common or did more families retain surnames earlier in their history? Is it possible we are from a formerly (enslaved) Slavic group and didn't keep a surname?

Hi Olyve, from what I know the region called Epirus - including the mountains of Suli - was settled long before the 16th century.

Among Albanians (and I do not know if the same logic would apply in your case), the lastname would correspond to your father's name or clan name. When someone's lastname refers to a region/town/village, it means that he migrated somewhere else and was called by his place of origin by his new neighbours (to remember the fact that he does not stem from the place where he lives). If we use this logic in your case, it would mean that your ancestor left Suli to settle somewhere else in Greece - which I believe was the case of many Suliots - before migrating to America.

I am not sure what you mean by "(enslaved) Slavic group". I never read about enslaved Slavs in Southern Albania / Northern Greece.
 
Guys, just one question:

Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:

Why couldn't them be dacian?

It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.

We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.

It makes sense tho, that:

1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.

2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.

Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

What are the main challenges to my suggestion?

Thanks in advance.
 
[...]

Gannicus, Dacians might have had their share of I2a and R1a (which remains to be proved by ancient samples) but I believe that there are a few objections to your hypothesis.

Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
Why couldn't them be dacian?


First of all, it would be necessary to specify the similar clades between Romanians/Moldavians and Albanians ? This would certainly help the discussion because comparing at I2a/R1a level is not very meaningful.
I am not an expert on Romanian/Moldavian genetics and a scientific paper would certainly help. What I can say on the similiarity argument (for R1a) concerns my own clade and it is not present in Romania/Moldova. It is pretty much the same for its parent branch R-Y2902 which has only scarce presence in Romania/Moldova (0,52% of the samples in FTDNA and only a couple of predicted lineages in the R-Y1392 project of FTDNA ). In view of this I would say that the similarity is limited and that if the Romanian/Moldavian territories where the place of origin of R-Y2902, I would expect to find more presence and diversity there.

It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.


There are known cases where language and genetics do not correspond. I am not an expert in linguistics but there is also slavic influence in the romanian language. For instance, their word for yes is "da". In short, I do not think that this is a solid argument.

It makes sense tho, that:
1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.


First, an Avar sample is not Dacian (at least to my knowledge). Besides, it is debated whether that "avar" sample (SZ1-R1a Z93) is really from the migration period or a bronze age sample (in short, it was not labelled as such in the scientific paper, it seemed to be an ancestor to other (older) samples and it did not match with the two other avar samples found there). But more important, there was no massive Ostrogothic come back to Southern Balkans (neither to Romania / Bulgaria) after settling in Pannonia. Whatever R1a/I2a lineages the Goths might have brought to the Balkans, I think that they would have assimilated them before settling to Pannonia, i.e. during their migration from Scandinavia to the Black Sea and then to the Dabube. That being said, it is true that the Goths formed a polyethnic confederation. In his History of the Goths, Herwig Wolfram mentions that their community comprised Finns, Slavs, Antes, Heruli, Alans, Huns, Taifali, Sarmatians, Aesti, Bastarnae and Romanized Daco-Carpian groups.

2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans. Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.

If the South Slavs assimilated those lineages during their migration to the Balkans they would logically be absent in common Slavs. Then arises the question of knowing who brought them to the North (Poland, Baltic, etc.) and to the East (Russia) ? Finally, what would be the original South Slavic lineages then ? As you might know, R1a and I2a are major haplogroups among Croats, Bosnians and Serbs (at least in terms of frequency).

And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?

I have no knowledge of a recorded Dacian migration to Illyricum/Albania. Be it as it may, ancient samples and current figures (frequencies, TMRCAs and diversity) do not support your hypothesis. Today, R1a and I2a are a minority among modern Albanian lineages. If they were to be the "original" Albanians, then why did they shrink and which people brought the dominant haplogroups between Albanians (E-V13, R-Z2103 and J-L283), and the Albanian language in the Northern mountains of Albania which are barely accessible ?
 
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Guys, just one question:
Romanians and moldovans have so much I2a and R1a, wich are of the same clades as those found among albanians:
Why couldn't them be dacian?
It doesn't make any sense that romanians are mostly slavic, and now speak romanian.
We know very well how hard it is to assimilate slavs and how easly they assimilated other cultures, so it doesn't make much sense that I2a-M423 and R1a (forgot the clade) are slavic.
It makes sense tho, that:
1) Ostrogoths have it as dacians lived in parts of hungary too, like in Avar Szolad, and assimilated them there, and from there spread them everywere they went.
2) Jugoslavs have them as they could have assimilated many carpathian people/dacians, and then brought them to the balkans.
Now, albanians could have them from slavs or ostrogoths, but in both cases, if what I suggest is true, it would be true.
And what if dacians directly brought it to albania? What would you think about albanians being of dacian origin and R1a + I2a originally?
What are the main challenges to my suggestion?
Thanks in advance.
Very wrong, please study genetics before saying this stuff. I was saying silly things in beginning too

Here is a database of south Slavic y dna https://dnk.poreklo.rs/DNK-projekat/
Here are some databases of Albanian y dna
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/

I2a p37 is the most frequent south Slavic y dna, most south slavic countries have 30%+, in Albanians it is ~8%, more in South than North. Maybe you want to speak about i2a m223, about 2.5% of Albanians carry this and it has nothing to do with south Slavs it is more frequent in Albanians than south Slavs I think they have less than 1%. I don't know which tribe brought it to Albanians but was in Europe for thousands of years

Now as for R1a the topic we are discussing, Albanians have 2% z280 (more in south than north again) which is generally believed to have moved with south Slavic migrations. Albanians have more R1a than just 2% but looks like most of this was pre south slavic, could be thracian, dacian etc who knows. It is possible that maybe 3% instead of 2% is south Slavic if you can find definite connection.

Not all R1a in south Slavs is from proto south Slavs some of it is actually earlier central/south European. West Slavic people carry much more Slavic r1a than south Slavs

The reason why Romanians have a lot of south Slavic y dna is because a lot more managed to move there than they did in Albania, you have to remember they pushed out a lot of illyrians and thracians further south when they moved into balkans, not for Slavic migration Albanians maybe would be found further north all the way up to Croatia. If anyone has a database of Romanian y dna please share

As for Ostrogoths they have little to do with i2a p37 and most r1a. Ostrogoths were mostly i1 and in Albanians you will find ~7% i1 people - how much of this is from Ostrogoth migration is unclear could be at least half
 

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