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Thread: Formation of Human Populations in Central and South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Thanks rudrigue but
    The swat pre-y31991 samples are more older in time than the saka sample from north east kazachstan
    Do you consider migration from south asia to the central steppe area also as option?
    Kind regards
    Adam
    They are, and that is perfectly fine. The older sample is also an outlier and has higher Steppe_MLBA ancestry too, which makes sense since he's closer in time to the original migrants from Central Asia. The Saka had a Western Steppe profile, so a South->North migration is not likely at all. But as I said they probably shared an ancestor sometime before these IE groups moved into South Asia, before 1500BC, it then split into a South Asian group (Udegram/Swat) and another that stayed in Central Asia (the Saka).

    My guess is that they were originally Iranian-speakers, and that these Udegram individuals are not Aryan-speaking but early Iranian Dasas (based on the evidence form the last post, besides they didn't cremate their dead)..but there's no way to know

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    So what is your theory
    if i understand ......
    That some people who belonged to haplogroup e-m123* were absorbed by indo- european tribes who belonged mainly to haplogroups r1a, q,r1b and than moved with them south ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    So what is your theory
    if i understand ......
    That some people who belonged to haplogroup e-m123* were absorbed by indo- european tribes who belonged mainly to haplogroups r1a, q,r1b and than moved with them south ?
    Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
    Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old
    Last edited by Ruderico; 25-09-19 at 12:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
    Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old
    i always thought of the cases of y31991 branches in west poland , moldova as some farmer as you said
    but the cases of it in southwest germany and west france as some old european celtic line
    regards
    Adam

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i always thought of the cases of y31991 branches in west poland , moldova as some farmer as you said
    but the cases of it in southwest germany and west france as some old european celtic line
    regards
    Adam
    Maybe, maybe not, at the moment there's no way to know. But be it as it may, Y31991 is so old in Europe that it's perfectly plausible (and I'd say likely) that it was eventually part of whatever Celtic or para-Celtic cultures existed in various areas of Europe throughout the millennia. My particular branch might actually be Indo-Iranian though
    Last edited by Ruderico; 25-09-19 at 19:27.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw kingjohn, on the Celtic thing. While these lineages are very likely neolithic in origin, its dispersal might indeed be related to Celts (or para/proto-Celtic peoples). This is just being inferred, but on FTDNA Big-y Blocktree I can see the European individuals are all originally from Western Europe: Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Canada and Brazil. There's Valerius, who's Bulgarian, but he shares a much more recent branch with a Canadian of French descent. Then there's my FTDNA y matches, who are all Iberian, and going by their surnames our original ancestor was probably from eastern Galicia or western Asturias, in NW Spain.

    Keep in mind that, even though my branch is possibly the one found in the Indo-Iranian groups, the subclade itself has a TMRCA of over 5000 years, so it's possible that they belong to a sub-branch, and that I belong to another, and if that case it's perfectly plausible that mine is European, rather than Asian, too.

    I checked those I2a individuals in Swat, who are with my E-Y31991 folks, and their haplogroup is I2a2a1b1b1. I2a2a1 equal to I-M223 and it's presence is also mostly in Western Europe, and less in Scandinavia. However, its TMRCA is even older than Y31991, at ~12000ybp. Its hard to know what really happened, maybe it's one of those haplogroups that were somewhere in eastern or southeastern Europe during the Chalcolithic and got picked up by early IEs and moved into Asia, but most of its surviving individuals stayed in Europe, and dispersed into the West for whatever reason (maybe the same as E-Y31991?)


    It's a good thing I don't give uniparental markers much personal importance, because if I did I'd be pretty lost.

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    Davidski comment to one of his blogers:

    Heil r1a..... lol

    vAsiSTha
    It makes no difference who's involved in the paper.
    If the paper argues or even suggests that Eastern European steppe populations didn't spread R1a-Z93 into Central and South Asia during the Bronze Age, then every single author on that paper is officially an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Btw kingjohn, on the Celtic thing. While these lineages are very likely neolithic in origin, its dispersal might indeed be related to Celts (or para/proto-Celtic peoples). This is just being inferred, but on FTDNA Big-y Blocktree I can see the European individuals are all originally from Western Europe: Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Canada and Brazil. There's Valerius, who's Bulgarian, but he shares a much more recent branch with a Canadian of French descent. Then there's my FTDNA y matches, who are all Iberian, and going by their surnames our original ancestor was probably from eastern Galicia or western Asturias, in NW Spain.

    Keep in mind that, even though my branch is possibly the one found in the Indo-Iranian groups, the subclade itself has a TMRCA of over 5000 years, so it's possible that they belong to a sub-branch, and that I belong to another, and if that case it's perfectly plausible that mine is European, rather than Asian, too.

    I checked those I2a individuals in Swat, who are with my E-Y31991 folks, and their haplogroup is I2a2a1b1b1. I2a2a1 equal to I-M223 and it's presence is also mostly in Western Europe, and less in Scandinavia. However, its TMRCA is even older than Y31991, at ~12000ybp. Its hard to know what really happened, maybe it's one of those haplogroups that were somewhere in eastern or southeastern Europe during the Chalcolithic and got picked up by early IEs and moved into Asia, but most of its surviving individuals stayed in Europe, and dispersed into the West for whatever reason (maybe the same as E-Y31991?)


    It's a good thing I don't give uniparental markers much personal importance, because if I did I'd be pretty lost.

    who would have thought to find I2A and rare e-m123* in north pakistan
    it is realy a surprise
    about e-y31991
    if it was a farmer haplogroup why does it is so low in modern day compared to the m78 branch the e-v13 group ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Possibly because E-Y31991 and E-V13 folks weren't in the same areas/cultures in Europe during the time of IE expansions, so they became part of different groups. That could explain why Y31991 is mostly West European and V13 is not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Possibly because E-Y31991 and E-V13 folks weren't in the same areas/cultures in Europe during the time of IE expansions, so they became part of different groups. That could explain why Y31991 is mostly West European and V13 is not

    there was another e-m123* who is french Canadian
    but i will not post his name because of gpd rules

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    Yes, I know who the family is, that's valerius' branch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Yes, I know who the family is, that's valerius' branch
    it is not him i sent you message

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Yes, first East then South into the subcontinent, also some subclade of I2a as we've seen in it in Swat Valley. Both probably entered into these IE-speaking groups coming from European farmers, which explains why they are a minority since these peoples were very patriarchal.
    Other branches of Y31991 (most of them) however were probably not included and should be your average farmer lineage in Europe and the Levant. Which is why I find it unlikely the Udegram and Saka belong to different branches, since Y31991 isn't native to anywhere near northern Pakistan or eastern Kazakhstan, and is some 10000 years old
    How do you think about Aryan marker Z93?

    I think subclade was not mutated as we know like a process of "R-M198>M417>Z645>Z93." Looks like scythian R1a m513 be directly mutated into Z93 w/o that process. So I think south asian z93 could originate in R1a m513, not in Z645, like scythian.
    Even if Z645 is upstream of z93, maybe CWC Z645 could not be mutated into Z93 in reality. That is why I think modern european barely has R1a- z93.

    in this work, we first aim to address the question of the familial and social organization of scytho-siberian groups by studying the genetic relationship of 29 individuals from the aldy-bel and sagly cultures using autosomal strs. (…) were obtained from 5 archeological sites located in the valley of the eerbek river in tuva republic, russia (fig. 1). y-chromosome haplogroups were first assigned using the isogg 2018 nomenclature. in order to improve the precision of haplogroup definition, we also analyzed a set of y-chromosome snp (supplementary table 2). nine samples belonged to the r1a-m513 haplogroup (defined by marker m513) and two of these nine samples were characterized as belonging to the r1a1a1b2-z93 haplogroup or one of its subclades. six samples belonged to the q1b1a-l54 haplogroup and five of these six samples belonged to the q1b1a3-l330 subclade. one sample belonged to the n-m231 haplogroup. in the same way, although two groups, of two and three individuals, shared haplotypes belonging to the r1a-m513 haplogroup, these groups likely include a father/son pair (arz-t2 and arz-t12). therefore, among nine r1a-m513 men, we found six independent haplotypes, one being present in two independent instances. all r1a-m513 haplotypes, however, including those attributed to the r1a1a1b2-z93 subclade, only differed by one-step mutations, across 5 loci at most. all r1a-m513 individuals were buried on the same site, eki-ottug 2, in a single kurgan.



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    You may be right, honestly I never bothered analysing that haplogroup or giving it much thought, because it is not mine. In fact, I barely care about my own haplogroup because of how little genetic data a y chromosome has, and see it merely as a "cool thing". I'm still on the fence whether mine is actually Indo-Iranian, or just your average neolithic EEF marker that got spread into Western Europe

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    Just checked the supplementary materials:

    Hajji_Firuz_BA
    (n=1):

    • F11, 3 (I4243):
    Date of 2465-2286 calBCE (3875±25 BP, PSUAMS-2113). Genetically female. This individual is a genetic outlier and is also an intrusive burial from the Bronze Age based on its radiocarbon dating. This individual has additional Steppe pastoralist related admixture when compared with the other individuals from the Copper Age.

    Could she be part of an IE Early Bronze Age migration which brought Armenian and maybe IE Gutian to the region (Northwest Iran) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    How do you think about Aryan marker Z93?

    I think subclade was not mutated as we know like a process of "R-M198>M417>Z645>Z93." Looks like scythian R1a m513 be directly mutated into Z93 w/o that process. So I think south asian z93 could originate in R1a m513, not in Z645, like scythian.
    Even if Z645 is upstream of z93, maybe CWC Z645 could not be mutated into Z93 in reality. That is why I think modern european barely has R1a- z93.



    in this work, we first aim to address the question of the familial and social organization of scytho-siberian groups by studying the genetic relationship of 29 individuals from the aldy-bel and sagly cultures using autosomal strs. (…) were obtained from 5 archeological sites located in the valley of the eerbek river in tuva republic, russia (fig. 1). y-chromosome haplogroups were first assigned using the isogg 2018 nomenclature. in order to improve the precision of haplogroup definition, we also analyzed a set of y-chromosome snp (supplementary table 2). nine samples belonged to the r1a-m513 haplogroup (defined by marker m513) and two of these nine samples were characterized as belonging to the r1a1a1b2-z93 haplogroup or one of its subclades. six samples belonged to the q1b1a-l54 haplogroup and five of these six samples belonged to the q1b1a3-l330 subclade. one sample belonged to the n-m231 haplogroup. in the same way, although two groups, of two and three individuals, shared haplotypes belonging to the r1a-m513 haplogroup, these groups likely include a father/son pair (arz-t2 and arz-t12). therefore, among nine r1a-m513 men, we found six independent haplotypes, one being present in two independent instances. all r1a-m513 haplotypes, however, including those attributed to the r1a1a1b2-z93 subclade, only differed by one-step mutations, across 5 loci at most. all r1a-m513 individuals were buried on the same site, eki-ottug 2, in a single kurgan.




    So Z93 could be of 2 different lineages of R1a? or M513 would be a SNP not already detected in ancient lineages of Z93?
    I dont know how to interprete the term "attributed" in the ast lines of the abstract you put here. Is it to say that the previously termed Z93 haplo's were in fact M513 and not Z93??? I'm confused.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    who would have thought to find I2A and rare e-m123* in north pakistan
    it is realy a surprise
    about e-y31991
    if it was a farmer haplogroup why does it is so low in modern day compared to the m78 branch the e-v13 group ?
    to find Y-I2a(I2a2?) in N-Pakistan is really not a surprise at all. There were found among Steppes pop's of Central-Eastern Europe

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    Ok thanks for correction ,
    Didnt know that
    i am no expert
    so i2a came from the north to pakistan
    And what do you think about the e-m123*do you it came from the north or from west asia iran?
    Last edited by kingjohn; 05-10-19 at 22:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Ok thanks for correction ,
    Didnt know that
    i am no expert
    so i2a came from the north to pakistan
    And what do you think about the e-m123*do you it came from the north or from west asia iran?
    There's not many alternatives.

    Either it was there before, in which case you'd have to connect it to an Iranian_HG-related branch that had split over ten thousand years from the original branch, and you'd be likely forced to assign yDNA E to Iranian-related ancestry rather than (distant) Levant_N/Iberomurusian ancestry. https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gGCc7wOoe...l_abstract.jpg
    Or it arrived with BMAC, which goes against Narasimhan's study because they found no such ancestry in Swat Valley IA samples.
    Or it arrived from the Steppe with Sintashta-related groups, likely acquired from their EEF-side. This was what Narasimhan suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    There's not many alternatives.

    Either it was there before, in which case you'd have to connect it to an Iranian_HG-related branch that had split over ten thousand years from the original branch, and you'd be likely forced to assign yDNA E to Iranian-related ancestry rather than (distant) Levant_N/Iberomurusian ancestry. https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gGCc7wOoe...l_abstract.jpg
    Or it arrived with BMAC, which goes against Narasimhan's study because they found no such ancestry in Swat Valley IA samples.
    Or it arrived from the Steppe with Sintashta-related groups, likely acquired from their EEF-side. This was what Narasimhan suggested.
    if you speak on iranian related ancestery that might be connected although i go with the levant neolithic and north african Mesolithic
    as a better source given the natufian were e-z830 and the iranian hunters were haplogroup j

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    if you speak on iranian related ancestery that might be connected although i go with the levant neolithic and north african Mesolithic
    as a better source given the natufian were e-z830 and the iranian hunters were haplogroup j
    Yes, I do aswell, which is why it almost certainly could not have been present in Swat before the LBA/IA. Unfortunetly we're not really certain which subclade they were, and to make things worse M123* is very rare today and likely wasn't very common in the past either...so finding its original source is like finding a needle in a hay stack. It's possible we may never know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Yes, I do aswell, which is why it almost certainly could not have been present in Swat before the LBA/IA. Unfortunetly we're not really certain which subclade they were, and to make things worse M123* is very rare today and likely wasn't very common in the past either...so finding its original source is like finding a needle in a hay stack. It's possible we may never
    know

    we need a larger samples of ancient dna remains , and a bit of luck
    i agree :)

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