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Thread: Dutch Y dna

  1. #1
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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Dutch Y dna

    For such a small country, there's definitely structure in the yDna, if not very much autosomally.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0496-0

    "Previous studies indicated existing, albeit limited, genetic-geographic population substructure in the Dutch population based on genome-wide data and a lack of this for mitochondrial SNP based data. Despite the aforementioned studies, Y-chromosomal SNP data from the Netherlands remain scarce and do not cover the territory of the Netherlands well enough to allow a reliable investigation of genetic-geographic population substructure. Here we provide the first substantial dataset of detailed spatial Y-chromosomal haplogroup information in 2085 males collected across the Netherlands and supplemented with previously published data from northern Belgium. We found Y-chromosomal evidence for genetic–geographic population substructure, and several Y-haplogroups demonstrating significant clinal frequency distributions in different directions. By means of prediction surface maps we could visualize (complex) distribution patterns of individual Y-haplogroups in detail. These results highlight the value of a micro-geographic approach and are of great use for forensic and epidemiological investigations and our understanding of the Dutch population history. Moreover, the previously noted absence of genetic-geographic population substructure in the Netherlands based on mitochondrial DNA in contrast to our Y-chromosome results, hints at different population histories for women and men in the Netherlands."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For such a small country, there's definitely structure in the yDna, if not very much autosomally.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0496-0

    "Previous studies indicated existing, albeit limited, genetic-geographic population substructure in the Dutch population based on genome-wide data and a lack of this for mitochondrial SNP based data. Despite the aforementioned studies, Y-chromosomal SNP data from the Netherlands remain scarce and do not cover the territory of the Netherlands well enough to allow a reliable investigation of genetic-geographic population substructure. Here we provide the first substantial dataset of detailed spatial Y-chromosomal haplogroup information in 2085 males collected across the Netherlands and supplemented with previously published data from northern Belgium. We found Y-chromosomal evidence for genetic–geographic population substructure, and several Y-haplogroups demonstrating significant clinal frequency distributions in different directions. By means of prediction surface maps we could visualize (complex) distribution patterns of individual Y-haplogroups in detail. These results highlight the value of a micro-geographic approach and are of great use for forensic and epidemiological investigations and our understanding of the Dutch population history. Moreover, the previously noted absence of genetic-geographic population substructure in the Netherlands based on mitochondrial DNA in contrast to our Y-chromosome results, hints at different population histories for women and men in the Netherlands."
    @Angela

    After the explanations I transcribe below, I understand better the limitations of Y and mitochondrial tests and the importance of performing an autosomal test:

    ”Y-DNA results are only useful when compared to other people’s results. That’s how you can find out if you are related to another male. One of the things you can do to find relatives is join a surname project.



    In most cultures, surnames are usually taken from the paternal side. This makes it easy to trace your father’s side of the family.


    Family Tree DNA currently has over 9,000 surname projects. To get started, just search your surname on their homepage. Others to checkout include Cyndi’s List and ISOGG’s (International Society Of Genetic Geneology) own list of surname projects.


    Most DNA testing companies also allow you to create a family tree use it to find other people with a shared ancestor.


    As with Y-DNA, mtDNA has several limitations. The biggest one is the limited set of ancestors it can trace. You can only trace someone with a direct maternal line to your mother. So it’ll go from your mother to your mom’s mom to her mom’s mom and so on.


    mtDNA ignores many ancestors on the paternal side of your mother’s lineage, as well. This can seriously limit your ancestry search and sometimes lead to unexpected results.


    For example, one African American woman’s mtDNA test results did not show any African ancestry, only European. This is possibly because a single woman in her maternal lineage was of European decent. That single individual threw her whole ancestry search off-track by ignoring her other black ancestors.


    Interesting fact: If former President Obama took an mtDNA test, it wouldn’t show any African ancestry. That’s because his mother has a mostly English ancestry. An autosome refers to the remaining 22 numbered chromosomes except for your 23rd, sex chromosome (X-Y).


    Unlike Y-DNA and mtDNA, autosomal DNA is inherited from both parents. So you can use it to trace either side of your family.


    Everyone can get value from an autosomal DNA test.


    The major DNA testing providers rely mostly on autosomal DNA testing.


    But the timescale is limited with this test – you can use this test to find relatives up to the second cousin level. Beyond that, you’ll need to use a family tree or other types of DNA testing to identify additional relatives and shared ancestors.


    Most DNA test providers provide family finder tools you can use to dig up more information that can help you fill the gaps.


    Autosomal DNA testing also tells you a lot about your long-term DNA ancestry (haplogroup) composition as well as the location and migration patterns of your ancestors.


    But it cannot tell you which side of your family those long-term ancestors came from. For that, you’ll have to get other family members tested, create a family tree and use additional details such as surnames.”

    “Às vezes ouço passar o vento; e só de ouvir o vento passar, vale a pena ter nascido”.
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    Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b > M269 > L23 > L51 > P310 > L151 > P312 > DF27 > ZZ12 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > BY2285 > BY25634 > FGC35133

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    While I don't want to get off-subject, Duarte's comments highlight the problem I have with autosomal results. I 'get' that they more accurately identify the totality of a person's heritage (and are the most useful to the professionals), but that's the problem. It's difficult to keep a focus when the results are so broad and difficult to know what to make of the results. Yes, my results say I'm generally western European (though I might have assumed that going in), but also Ukrainian, Sardinian, East African, and Native American. That's like saying we're all children of Adam. I don't doubt that it's true, but so what?

    At least for the amateur (and I'm very much so) the results of Y-DNA and mtDNA testing allows focus. Using them, I can see, and trace, a male line back to a small village in Yorkshire c1550 and a female line back to a similarly miniscule village in Holstein c1650. And, I can make this heritage come alive by learning about the people of those regions and times.

    So yes, I'm struggling with what to do with my autosomal results other than marvel at the relatedness of us all.

    For Duarte, you say, "Autosomal DNA testing also tells you a lot about your long-term DNA ancestry (haplogroup) composition as well as the location and migration patterns of your ancestors." How does that work? I'm not sure how you identify haplogroups or migration patterns with autosomal results. As my sons might say, "just asking."

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    @Angela

    After the explanations I transcribe below, I understand better the limitations of Y and mitochondrial tests and the importance of performing an autosomal test:

    ”Y-DNA results are only useful when compared to other people’s results. That’s how you can find out if you are related to another male. One of the things you can do to find relatives is join a surname project.



    In most cultures, surnames are usually taken from the paternal side. This makes it easy to trace your father’s side of the family.


    Family Tree DNA currently has over 9,000 surname projects. To get started, just search your surname on their homepage. Others to checkout include Cyndi’s List and ISOGG’s (International Society Of Genetic Geneology) own list of surname projects.


    Most DNA testing companies also allow you to create a family tree use it to find other people with a shared ancestor.


    As with Y-DNA, mtDNA has several limitations. The biggest one is the limited set of ancestors it can trace. You can only trace someone with a direct maternal line to your mother. So it’ll go from your mother to your mom’s mom to her mom’s mom and so on.


    mtDNA ignores many ancestors on the paternal side of your mother’s lineage, as well. This can seriously limit your ancestry search and sometimes lead to unexpected results.


    For example, one African American woman’s mtDNA test results did not show any African ancestry, only European. This is possibly because a single woman in her maternal lineage was of European decent. That single individual threw her whole ancestry search off-track by ignoring her other black ancestors.


    Interesting fact: If former President Obama took an mtDNA test, it wouldn’t show any African ancestry. That’s because his mother has a mostly English ancestry. An autosome refers to the remaining 22 numbered chromosomes except for your 23rd, sex chromosome (X-Y).


    Unlike Y-DNA and mtDNA, autosomal DNA is inherited from both parents. So you can use it to trace either side of your family.


    Everyone can get value from an autosomal DNA test.


    The major DNA testing providers rely mostly on autosomal DNA testing.


    But the timescale is limited with this test – you can use this test to find relatives up to the second cousin level. Beyond that, you’ll need to use a family tree or other types of DNA testing to identify additional relatives and shared ancestors.


    Most DNA test providers provide family finder tools you can use to dig up more information that can help you fill the gaps.


    Autosomal DNA testing also tells you a lot about your long-term DNA ancestry (haplogroup) composition as well as the location and migration patterns of your ancestors.


    But it cannot tell you which side of your family those long-term ancestors came from. For that, you’ll have to get other family members tested, create a family tree and use additional details such as surnames.”

    Henry Louis Gates Jr. is another great example. He has both a European ydna and a European mtDna, yet he is clearly majority SSA. Now, that L21 yDna does tell him something important; it tells him that perhaps his paternal line descends from an overseer, as those positions were often held by men from Ireland. The mtdna also fills in his family background. The vast majority of the mixing between whites and blacks was between white men and black women. The fact that he carries a European mtDna might tie him to small groups like the Melungeons who formed during the very early years of slavery, when the line between white indentured servants and black slaves was not so insurmountable.



    Obviously, however, he's an African American who is majority SSA. He was actually quite surprised and a bit upset when he got his results back.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Henry Louis Gates Jr. is another great example. He has both a European ydna and a European mtDna, yet he is clearly majority SSA. Now, that L21 yDna does tell him something important; it tells him that perhaps his paternal line descends from an overseer, as those positions were often held by men from Ireland. The mtdna also fills in his family background. The vast majority of the mixing between whites and blacks was between white men and black women. The fact that he carries a European mtDna might tie him to small groups like the Melungeons who formed during the very early years of slavery, when the line between white indentured servants and black slaves was not so insurmountable.



    Obviously, however, he's an African American who is majority SSA. He was actually quite surprised and a bit upset when he got his results back.
    I'm in a bit of a similar situation. I carry mtDna U2e2, which is very old in Europe, but which we find most frequently in the EHG and the steppe Indo-Europeans and in northern Europe where they form a larger part of the total ancestry. From other results I know my father carried U-152. Yet, by some measures I'm 83% Italian, and my percentage of WHG is very small, and even total steppe is probably at most 25%. It's important to know for my family history far back in time, since I can see the impact of steppe admixed ancestry, but I don't "identify" with the EHG or the actual steppe people per se at all. Italics are a different story, of course.

    I guess I'm trying to say that both lines of inquiry are important.

    I actually wish I knew my maternal grandfather's uniparental lines and the yDna of my mother's mother's family, but they won't test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    For Duarte, you say, "Autosomal DNA testing also tells you a lot about your long-term DNA ancestry (haplogroup) composition as well as the location and migration patterns of your ancestors." How does that work? I'm not sure how you identify haplogroups or migration patterns with autosomal results. As my sons might say, "just asking."
    For someone of preponderantly Iberian ancestry, like me (72%), the presence of autosomal DNA from the British Isles and southeastern Europe (20%) indicates the arrival of Hallstatt’s Celts (newcomers) who mixed themselfs with the Iberian natives. North African DNA (4%) is typical of the Iberian peoples and indicates the presence of Berbers on the peninsula before the Roman period and Arabs / Berbers after the Roman period during the Moorish occupation of the peninsula in the Middle Ages. The trace results, not computed in total by FTDNA because they can be only background noise, in my specific case indicate the possibility of ancient mixtures with indigenous and black people in Brazil colonial times (this is my Brazilianness trait). As can be seen, autosomal DNA can also say a lot about ancient migrations:






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    I read in an article on this forum (Genetic History of the Benelux and France) that my y-DNA is more frequently found in the Netherlands by percentage than any other country. The charts made by Maciamo show my branch of U198--S4060--as one of the "Dutch & Anglo-Saxon branches" of U198. Although my own paternal line ended up being German rather than Dutch, I don't consider there to be enough difference to bet the family farm on.
    Colonial American descendant of mostly English and Northwestern European heritage, with some West African admixture

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