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Thread: Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

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    I'm disappointed in how quite it has been today on twitter. But I'm sure there will be some news to come shortly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Razib's post saying "wow" without showing a picture of the poster or hinting what's on it is a bad sign
    I bet you just can't wait.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    It's stuff like this that makes me ignore autosomal interpretations. Everything is simplified to an extend that it sounds stupid. Everything North-Eastern is Slavic and everything North-Western is Celtic.

    Thank God nobody said ancient Romans were ancient Greeks with a bit of Slavic in them.
    Thankfully, because that would be ludicrous.

    North-East of Mycenaeans is exactly where I plot, and I have no traceable Slavic ancestry.



    Of all Europeans, with the exception of Sardinians and Finno-Ugric people; I have the least in common with Slavs, generally.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis. Now, that makes sense, but then Khan has assiduously pursued his interest in ancient history and particularly Roman history, just showing that STEM people don't need to be morons when it comes to everything but math and science. He can put the information into historical context, which I don't think the authors themselves did.

    As to the Etruscans,I really want to see if the bozos at anthrogenica will admit they were completely and utterly wrong about them, and, if they have the decency to apologize about the constant playing of the "race card" against anyone who argued against the whole migration from Anatolia in the first millenium fantasy.

    I won't be holding my breath, however. :)

    Oh, and their fantasy that the genetics "changed back" because of the Germanic invasions is bunk as well. All the Lombard dna we've seen is U106. Add in I1 for other Germanics and you still have a very small percentage of Italians descending from them in the male line. There just weren't enough Germanics for big changes, just as there weren't enough Indo-Europeans for big changes before that, and, of course. the migrations of the Indo-Europeans were matched by Bronze Age migrations from the east. All as I've always said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis. Now, that makes sense, but then Khan has assiduously pursued his interest in ancient history and particularly Roman history, just showing that STEM people don't need to be morons when it comes to everything but math and science. He can put the information into historical context, which I don't think the authors themselves did.

    As to the Etruscans,I really want to see if the bozos at anthrogenica will admit they were completely and utterly wrong about them, and, if they have the decency to apologize about the constant playing of the "race card" against anyone who argued against the whole migration from Anatolia in the first millenium fantasy.

    I won't be holding my breath, however. :)

    Oh, and their fantasy that the genetics "changed back" because of the Germanic invasions is bunk as well. All the Lombard dna we've seen is U106. Add in I1 for other Germanics and you still have a very small percentage of Italians descending from them in the male line. There just weren't enough Germanics for big changes, just as there weren't enough Indo-Europeans for big changes before that, and, of course. the migrations of the Indo-Europeans were matched by Bronze Age migrations from the east. All as I've always said.
    Indeed :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Thankfully, because that would be ludicrous.

    North-East of Mycenaeans is exactly where I plot, and I have no traceable Slavic ancestry.



    Of all Europeans, with the exception of Sardinians and Finno-Ugric people; I have the least in common with Slavs, generally.

    Also, as I have previously mentioned by the late Republic/ Early Imperial era, the mixing of primarily these two groups possibly created a genetic synthesis, which enriched Europe, during colonization of conquered lands.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Also, as I have previously mentioned by the late Republic/ Early Imperial era, the mixing of primarily these two groups possibly created a genetic synthesis, which enriched Europe, during colonization of conquered lands.

    I think that's absolutely correct.

    All of the hallmarks of higher, more sophisticated civilizations came from the East, often via the Greeks, but perhaps directly as well, and in the Bronze Age came along with people, as had the innovations of the Neolithic period.

    By the time of the Etruscans, we have a people who opened their culture to influences from Greece, Anatolia, even the Levant, while clearly not admixing genetically. Perhaps it had to do with more trade routes, easier transport of merchants, artisans etc.

    Very little in high Etruscan culture came from Central Europe, which may explain why the thinking of even honest people without an agenda was that there must have been a migration of people bringing all this new knowledge.

    That wasn't what the archaeology showed, and it seems the genetics will fall in line with the archaeology.

    Instead, we have a people who transformed themselves and their culture in a very short time. The only corollary I can think of is the Japanese after the arrival of Perry. However, I would submit that the Etruscans, and their neighbors and cousins the Romans, also made a lot of innovations of their own. It's really a remarkable story of a remarkable people.

    I feel vindicated for having always been fascinated by them. One of my earliest memories is of clambering around their "cemeteries of the dead". That's how long back it goes. That, and my memories of Luna.

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    So I guess it is:

    -Etruscans and early Latins, more North Italian-like

    -Imperial Romans, more Central and South Italian-like

    At least as far as my speculation, based on these developments go. We will have a better picture by next month.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This has been an interesting follow.. Thanks people

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    Good job,

    I speculate that the "Romans" near modern Abbruzzo/TSI, are Latins in the Imperial era; which are also close to Modern people from Lazio.

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    So, Etruscan IA is more 'northern' like continental Bell Beakers, while Romans are more Aegean?
    And what about the Y-DNA? Is it a mix of males from one group with females from another group as elsewhere in Europe?
    It surprises me that Anatolia N is completely in an outer corner. Only Minoans come near.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    So, Etruscan IA is more 'northern' like continental Bell Beakers, while Romans are more Aegean?
    And what about the Y-DNA?
    According to rumours, still unconfirmed, the Etruscan samples (low quality) are R1b1a1a1b-M269 and one of these (the high-quality one) was R1b-U152+. Another low quality Etruscan sample would have been I1.

    R1b1a1a1b-M269 and R1b-U152+ found among the Etruscans, if confirmed, are not strange, they are still widespread in Etruscan areas.

    While I1 may seem strange but as Maciamo writes "haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. It is therefore possible that I1 lineages were among the Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by the wave of East Mediterranean Neolithic farmers (represented chiefly by Y-haplogroup G2a)."

    T
    he Linear Pottery (LBK) samples from Austria, Germany and Hungary are the ones who were closest to the mtDNA of the Etruscans in the 2013 paper (Ghirotto 2013, Tassi 2013).

    Instead I don't remember the rumors about the Y-DNA of the Roman samples. Latins should be seen separately from the Romans. All Latins became Romans but not all Romans were of Latin descent.


    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Is it a mix of males from one group with females from another group as elsewhere in Europe?.
    This is potentially true for any Iron Age ethnos, especially in southern Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    It surprises me that Anatolia N is completely in an outer corner. Only Minoans come near.
    It also depends on the type of PCA. Anyway Minoans can be modelled as if they had been 80% Anatolia_N (ENF), so nothing strange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    According to rumours, still unconfirmed, the Etruscan samples (low quality) are R1b1a1a1b-M269 and one of these (the high-quality one) was R1b-U152+. Another low quality Etruscan sample would have been I1.

    R1b1a1a1b-M269 and R1b-U152+ found among the Etruscans, if confirmed, are not strange, they are still widespread in Etruscan areas.

    While I1 may seem strange but as Maciamo writes "haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. It is therefore possible that I1 lineages were among the Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by the wave of East Mediterranean Neolithic farmers (represented chiefly by Y-haplogroup G2a)."
    T
    he Linear Pottery (LBK) samples from Austria, Germany and Hungary are the ones who were closest to the mtDNA of the Etruscans in the 2013 paper (Ghirotto 2013, Tassi 2013).

    Instead I don't remember the rumors about the Y-DNA of the Roman samples. Latins should be seen separately from the Romans. All Latins became Romans but not all Romans were of Latin descent.




    This is potentially true for any Iron Age ethnos, especially in southern Europe.




    It also depends on the type of PCA. Anyway Minoans can be modelled as if they had been 80% Anatolia_N (ENF), so nothing strange.
    Thanks very much, Pax.

    The comment you made about the relationship between Etruscans, Latins and Romans (which I bolded) should be repeated every time people discuss the genetics of the "Romans". Well put.

    Indeed, it's the same story which happened all over Europe, with Indo-European males and "local" women mixing, although in northern and central Europe we see more steppe mtDna, but the percentages are different in Southern Europe for that and other reasons we've discussed often. The yDna and mtDna reflect that. The Etruscans and, indeed, the Latins, if the reports are correct, and if the PCA reflects other analyses, have even a bit less steppe ancestry than the modern day Spanish and Northern Italians/Tuscans.

    That Etruscan mtDna was always an important clue, but a lot of people refused to see the implications. Was it Barbujani who came to that conclusion? I always thought he was more on point than Piazza and his crew.

    It will be interesting to compare the Etruscans and Latins to other ancient samples from Italy, like the Parma Beakers, for example, or even Otzi. For goodness sakes', if the Reich Lab and/or Johannes Krause is indeed working on Etruscan samples I hope they, unlike these shoemakers, have the sense to make some comparisons, and hopefully get some Terramare and other ancient dna as well so we can get a look at the changes over time.

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    hope for e1b1b1 :)
    even e-v13 which is not my clade .....
    today v-13 is found in nice number in north italy/ lombardia/ veneto
    so we need more research on ancient italic individuals .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed :)

    That map represent a recent paper stating that umbri came from around modern vienna and then laft for italy circa 2300bc

    The italics are the umbri

    We also known that samnites, sabines, sabellics of italy all came out of the umbri
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Imperial period began after caesar death........how much are we going to know about early italy , then ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    hope for e1b1b1 :)
    even e-v13 which is not my clade .....
    today v-13 is found in nice number in north italy/ lombardia/ veneto
    so we need more research on ancient italic individuals .....
    My guess is that the romans of circa 500 bc. Will be haplogroups of J2 and E in majority

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Good job,

    I speculate that the "Romans" near modern Abbruzzo/TSI, are Latins in the Imperial era; which are also close to Modern people from Lazio.

    I've counted 25 Roman samples. The average of all 25 seems closer to Italian_South. The northernmost Romans are, in my opinion, closer to Italian Abruzzo than to TSI. So probably also close to modern people from Lazio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    My guess is that the romans of circa 500 bc. Will be haplogroups of J2 and E in majority
    Yet autosomally the same as Etruscans????

    The "Romans" of 500 AD, maybe.

    Let's keep in mind that the "Romans" of 500 BC are going to be closer to "Latins" and different from the "Romans" of 50 AD even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I've counted 25 Roman samples. The average of all 25 seems closer to Italian_South. The northernmost Romans are, in my opinion, closer to Italian Abruzzo than to TSI. So probably also close to modern people from Lazio.
    Where do the Republican Era samples cluster? Or do we not know the dates yet?

    If the Latins and Etruscans are very similar, I'd be surprised if the early Republican Era samples cluster with Abruzzo. I'd think they'd be closer to southern Tuscans.

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    Could be,🤔
    the rumor is that there are some j2b in the latins sample so i might be wrong lets wait...
    The other rumor is the e1b1b they found in the south is e-z830 and not the typical european e-v13
    There are some j1 and j2a in the south.....
    Can't wait for this paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Where do the Republican Era samples cluster? Or do we not know the dates yet?

    If the Latins and Etruscans are very similar, I'd be surprised if the early Republican Era samples cluster with Abruzzo. I'd think they'd be closer to southern Tuscans.

    I think the northernmost Romans are also the oldest, so probably Republican Era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    I think the northernmost Romans are also the oldest, so probably Republican Era.
    If that turns out to be the case it looks like southern Toscana, northern Lazio to me for most of them, but I guess we'll soon see.

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