Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

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bicicleur 2

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this is the abstract

https://eventpilotadmin.com/doc/cli...y-5roBqLKlwCZL0zW3jtVbgRkLUVnpJQPZiraHNiUUlhg

Nearly 2000 years ago, Rome was the largest urban center of the ancient world and the capital of an
empire with over 60 million inhabitants. Although Rome has long been a subject of archaeological and
historical study, little is known about the genetic history of the Roman population. To fill this gap, we
performed whole genome sequencing on 127 individuals from 29 sites in and around Rome, spanning
the past 12,000 years. Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic. As
Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions. Interestingly, Rome’s population
remains heterogeneous despite these major ancestry shifts through time. Our study provides a first
look into the dynamic genetic history of Rome from before its founding, into the modern era.

the study is to be published soon it seems

they mention only neolithic and bronze age steppe turnovers

no mention of DNA from the Aegean, from the Eastern Meditterranean nor from bronze age Anatolia, at least not in or around Rome
 
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they mention only neolithic and bronze age steppe turnovers
no mention of DNA from the Aegean, from the Eastern Meditterranean nor from bronze age Anatolia, at least not in or around Rome
Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions.

It broadly makes mention of Europe with includes Greece, and the Aegean.
 
Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions.

It broadly makes mention of Europe with includes Greece, and the Aegean.

yes, but only during the expansion of the Roman Empire, not before
at least, as far as the abstract goes
 
yes, but only during the expansion of the Roman Empire, not before
at least, as far as the abstract goes

Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic.


It actually implies that only two major prehistoric events changed Italy, prior to the Republic; not just Rome. Which I find bizarre considering Hannah Moots re-posted the Raveane et al paper on the 4th, which prominently considers a Bronze Age Anatolian migration. Moreover, which was given support by this paper:

The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714.full.pdf


 
Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic.


It actually implies that only two major prehistoric events changed Italy, prior to the Republic; not just Rome. Which I find bizarre considering Hannah Moots re-posted the Raveane et al paper on the 4th, which prominently considers a Bronze Age Anatolian migration. Moreover, which was given support by this paper:

The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714.full.pdf



that is exactly what I meant

does 'The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean' have samples from Central or Northern Italy?
as far as I remember only from Sicily
 
I think we need to wait to see the paper, but my first impression is that the quality of publications in this field, once you're not talking about the Reich, Krause and Allentoft groups, can be pretty abysmal.

What person with any functioning brain cells, much less a supposed geneticist, would assume that samples taken from the capital city of a world empire would be dispositive of the genetic history of all Italians? That's especially true given that many of the samples were supposedly taken from around Ostia. That would be like presuming to make judgments about American genetics by using only samples from New York City.

Furthermore, the founding of the Republic was in 510 BC. The first Greek settlements in Italy began in the 7th century-8th century BC. Even if the "Iran Neo/CHG" like ancestry devoid of steppe didn't arrive in Italy until then, it might not have been present in Rome until after Rome began its expansion. Plus, where are the second and first millenium BC samples from southern Italy for comparison? Assuming they were more Greek like, without isotope analysis, how would you know if they came to Rome from southern Italy rather than from Greece or Greece rather than Anatolia?

Why does all of this occur to me but it doesn't occur to people working on their PHDs in population genetics?

I'm fine with whatever the data shows, but for goodness' sakes, why can't some of the heavy hitters do this, maybe with Patrick Geary? Is it too much to ask that the analysis be done by people who know what they're doing and not second string people?

The usual suspects are, of course, jumping on it even though the whole premise seems faulty.
 
"Although Rome has long been a subject of archaeological and
historical study, little is known about the genetic history of the Roman population. To fill this gap, we
performed whole genome sequencing on 127 individuals from 29 sites in and around Rome, spanning
the past 12,000 years. Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic. As
Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions. Interestingly, Rome’s populationremains heterogeneous despite these major ancestry shifts through time. "


I don't really understand this point since Bronze and Neolithic were way before the founding of Rome. The largest Empire in the world at the time, obviously traders from all over would be going there to earn a living. Not only that is we have some evidence that there was eastern influence during the bronze age from the Aegean. This would have no doubt affected central Italy during the Imperial period, and certainly a metropolitan area. What I find interesting, and conclusive is that the study suggests Italic settlers were essentially a Beaker population who arrived from the north. If there was any doubt before...which I think there was much.
 
I checked, only Sicily and Sardinia.
I think it would be strange for it to only impact Insular Italy, Greece/aegaen, and not the mainland; especially the South. We really need to see the paper.
 
Here's an important thing to remember about the city of Rome in particular. It was reduced to a population of only 30,000 by 550 AD. There was depopulation all over Italy, and the Empire.

OfcAu8z.png


https://msaag.aag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/26_Twine.pdf
 
Without reading the peer reviewed version of this paper it is impossible to make accurate comments.

Just to talk. So, to summarize on the basis of this abstract, papers on the Neolithic and Bronze Ages in Italy have not been published yet, but they know for sure that "Italy has undergone two major changes in prehistoric ancestry corresponding to the Neolithic transition to agriculture and migration of the steppe of the Bronze Age, both before the founding of the Roman Republic".

So, to reconstruct the prehistory of Italy before the founding of the Roman Republic was enough to analyze samples in Rome and its surroundings. What fools the archaeologists who have wasted time studying all the archaeological facies of Italy. Stanford's geneticists with their superpowers found the answer in a few months.

Was Imperial Rome a melting pot? Well, it was the capital of a vast empire, no archaeologist or historian has ever suggested the opposite, so it's no surprise. Especially if you go to analyze certain necropolis rather than others. But how much this melting could have contributed to forming the Italians of today, well I fear that not even all the samples they have analyzed are enough. Archaeology suggests other, particularly for southern Italy, that there were migrations from the Aeneolithic that could be rich in CHG, and who knows, maybe Iran_N found in Sardinia and Sicily were not isolated cases.

By the way, who is "M. Antonio" the first author in the abstract? There is no biographical information about him.
 
don't get how you people come to the conclusion that this paper uses the samples from the capital to describe the rest of the italian peninsula. there is nothing in the abstract that would suggest this. also way too early to compare it with mary beard's cartoon about britain. the discussion about this was way too bloated anyway because too many on the far right got triggered because of something unimportant.
 
There have already been many rumours and speculations about the results of this study.
 
don't get how you people come to the conclusion that this paper uses the samples from the capital to describe the rest of the italian peninsula. there is nothing in the abstract that would suggest this. also way too early to compare it with mary beard's cartoon about britain. the discussion about this was way too bloated anyway because too many on the far right got triggered because of something unimportant.

Maybe because they SAY it applies to Italy as a whole????

It pays to read carefully, although maybe these people can't write clearly.

" Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic."

I have no idea what cartoon you're discussing.

I also have no idea what the far right has to do with anything. That label certainly doesn't apply to me or to anyone posting here, to my knowledge.
 
Here's an important thing to remember about the city of Rome in particular. It was reduced to a population of only 30,000 by 550 AD. There was depopulation all over Italy, and the Empire.

OfcAu8z.png


https://msaag.aag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/26_Twine.pdf

Oh no, that can't be correct. Don't you know that there was no fall? There were just a bunch of wandering German farmers who came because they liked the climate.

For those who can't recognize sarcasm, that was sarcasm.
 
I read in an online group that there is an Iron Age G2a sample from near Rome (fingers crossed for it being an L497)...
 
Maybe because they SAY it applies to Italy as a whole????

It pays to read carefully, although maybe these people can't write clearly.

" Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic."

I have no idea what cartoon you're discussing.

I also have no idea what the far right has to do with anything. That label certainly doesn't apply to me or to anyone posting here, to my knowledge.

but it did nowhere state that the samples from the imperial roman capital were used for something different other than looking at the genetics of the city itself or that they made any conclusions about the rest of the italic peninsula during the times of the roman empire.

"As
Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
Near East, Europe and North Africa."

if you don't know the discussion about the cartoon then that's ok. it was no big deal but some people made an elephant out of nothing.
 
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