Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 138

Thread: Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,399
    Points
    48,742
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,742, Level: 68
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,008
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    5 members found this post helpful.

    Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

    this is the abstract

    https://eventpilotadmin.com/doc/clie...QPZiraHNiUUlhg

    Nearly 2000 years ago, Rome was the largest urban center of the ancient world and the capital of an
    empire with over 60 million inhabitants. Although Rome has long been a subject of archaeological and
    historical study, little is known about the genetic history of the Roman population. To fill this gap, we
    performed whole genome sequencing on 127 individuals from 29 sites in and around Rome, spanning
    the past 12,000 years. Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic. As
    Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
    became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
    Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
    surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions. Interestingly, Rome’s population
    remains heterogeneous despite these major ancestry shifts through time. Our study provides a first
    look into the dynamic genetic history of Rome from before its founding, into the modern era.

    the study is to be published soon it seems

    they mention only neolithic and bronze age steppe turnovers

    no mention of DNA from the Aegean, from the Eastern Meditterranean nor from bronze age Anatolia, at least not in or around Rome

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    t
    they mention only neolithic and bronze age steppe turnovers
    no mention of DNA from the Aegean, from the Eastern Meditterranean nor from bronze age Anatolia, at least not in or around Rome
    Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
    surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions.

    It broadly makes mention of Europe with includes Greece, and the Aegean.

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,399
    Points
    48,742
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,742, Level: 68
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,008
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
    surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions.

    It broadly makes mention of Europe with includes Greece, and the Aegean.
    yes, but only during the expansion of the Roman Empire, not before
    at least, as far as the abstract goes

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, but only during the expansion of the Roman Empire, not before
    at least, as far as the abstract goes
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic.


    It actually implies that only two major prehistoric events changed Italy, prior to the Republic; not just Rome. Which I find bizarre considering Hannah Moots re-posted the Raveane et al paper on the 4th, which prominently considers a Bronze Age Anatolian migration. Moreover, which was given support by this paper:

    The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...84714.full.pdf



  5. #5
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,399
    Points
    48,742
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,742, Level: 68
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,008
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic.


    It actually implies that only two major prehistoric events changed Italy, prior to the Republic; not just Rome. Which I find bizarre considering Hannah Moots re-posted the Raveane et al paper on the 4th, which prominently considers a Bronze Age Anatolian migration. Moreover, which was given support by this paper:

    The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...84714.full.pdf


    that is exactly what I meant

    does 'The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean' have samples from Central or Northern Italy?
    as far as I remember only from Sicily

  6. #6
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,399
    Points
    48,742
    Level
    68
    Points: 48,742, Level: 68
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,008
    Overall activity: 17.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    I checked, only Sicily and Sardinia.

  7. #7
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Also Sardinia which gets Iran-like ancestry in late antiquity, and IA.

  8. #8
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,869
    Points
    311,777
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,777, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    4 members found this post helpful.
    I think we need to wait to see the paper, but my first impression is that the quality of publications in this field, once you're not talking about the Reich, Krause and Allentoft groups, can be pretty abysmal.

    What person with any functioning brain cells, much less a supposed geneticist, would assume that samples taken from the capital city of a world empire would be dispositive of the genetic history of all Italians? That's especially true given that many of the samples were supposedly taken from around Ostia. That would be like presuming to make judgments about American genetics by using only samples from New York City.

    Furthermore, the founding of the Republic was in 510 BC. The first Greek settlements in Italy began in the 7th century-8th century BC. Even if the "Iran Neo/CHG" like ancestry devoid of steppe didn't arrive in Italy until then, it might not have been present in Rome until after Rome began its expansion. Plus, where are the second and first millenium BC samples from southern Italy for comparison? Assuming they were more Greek like, without isotope analysis, how would you know if they came to Rome from southern Italy rather than from Greece or Greece rather than Anatolia?

    Why does all of this occur to me but it doesn't occur to people working on their PHDs in population genetics?

    I'm fine with whatever the data shows, but for goodness' sakes, why can't some of the heavy hitters do this, maybe with Patrick Geary? Is it too much to ask that the analysis be done by people who know what they're doing and not second string people?

    The usual suspects are, of course, jumping on it even though the whole premise seems faulty.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  9. #9
    Baron Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-05-12
    Posts
    273
    Points
    6,034
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,034, Level: 22
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 16
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Canada



    "Although Rome has long been a subject of archaeological and
    historical study, little is known about the genetic history of the Roman population. To fill this gap, we
    performed whole genome sequencing on 127 individuals from 29 sites in and around Rome, spanning
    the past 12,000 years. Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic. As
    Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
    became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
    Near East, Europe and North Africa. Furthermore, we find that gene flow between Rome and
    surrounding regions closely mirrors Rome’s geopolitical interactions. Interestingly, Rome’s populationremains heterogeneous despite these major ancestry shifts through time. "


    I don't really understand this point since Bronze and Neolithic were way before the founding of Rome. The largest Empire in the world at the time, obviously traders from all over would be going there to earn a living. Not only that is we have some evidence that there was eastern influence during the bronze age from the Aegean. This would have no doubt affected central Italy during the Imperial period, and certainly a metropolitan area. What I find interesting, and conclusive is that the study suggests Italic settlers were essentially a Beaker population who arrived from the north. If there was any doubt before...which I think there was much.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-11
    Posts
    200
    Points
    9,038
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,038, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 312
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    3 members found this post helpful.
    This study on ancient Rome looks like it was written by Mary Beard. How much will the recent debate on multi-ethnicity in the Roman Empire influence the conclusions of this study?

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...day-mary-beard

  11. #11
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    David Reich:
    The bones that we're looking at right now are about 5,000- or 6,000-year-old samples from Italy. And we're trying to understand population transformations in Italy over time.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/th...ted-we-all-are
    I wonder when the Reich paper on Italy will be coming out. Because it will be the one with the most authority on the subject, imo.

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I checked, only Sicily and Sardinia.
    I think it would be strange for it to only impact Insular Italy, Greece/aegaen, and not the mainland; especially the South. We really need to see the paper.

  13. #13
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here's an important thing to remember about the city of Rome in particular. It was reduced to a population of only 30,000 by 550 AD. There was depopulation all over Italy, and the Empire.



    https://msaag.aag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/26_Twine.pdf

  14. #14
    Moderator Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,101
    Points
    29,559
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,559, Level: 52
    Level completed: 83%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    5 members found this post helpful.
    Without reading the peer reviewed version of this paper it is impossible to make accurate comments.

    Just to talk. So, to summarize on the basis of this abstract, papers on the Neolithic and Bronze Ages in Italy have not been published yet, but they know for sure that "Italy has undergone two major changes in prehistoric ancestry corresponding to the Neolithic transition to agriculture and migration of the steppe of the Bronze Age, both before the founding of the Roman Republic".

    So, to reconstruct the prehistory of Italy before the founding of the Roman Republic was enough to analyze samples in Rome and its surroundings. What fools the archaeologists who have wasted time studying all the archaeological facies of Italy. Stanford's geneticists with their superpowers found the answer in a few months.

    Was Imperial Rome a melting pot? Well, it was the capital of a vast empire, no archaeologist or historian has ever suggested the opposite, so it's no surprise. Especially if you go to analyze certain necropolis rather than others. But how much this melting could have contributed to forming the Italians of today, well I fear that not even all the samples they have analyzed are enough. Archaeology suggests other, particularly for southern Italy, that there were migrations from the Aeneolithic that could be rich in CHG, and who knows, maybe Iran_N found in Sardinia and Sicily were not isolated cases.

    By the way, who is "M. Antonio" the first author in the abstract? There is no biographical information about him.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    18-03-17
    Posts
    327
    Points
    2,064
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,064, Level: 12
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Ethnic group
    swiss,italian
    Country: Germany



    don't get how you people come to the conclusion that this paper uses the samples from the capital to describe the rest of the italian peninsula. there is nothing in the abstract that would suggest this. also way too early to compare it with mary beard's cartoon about britain. the discussion about this was way too bloated anyway because too many on the far right got triggered because of something unimportant.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    23-02-11
    Posts
    200
    Points
    9,038
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,038, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 312
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    There have already been many rumours and speculations about the results of this study.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,869
    Points
    311,777
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,777, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    don't get how you people come to the conclusion that this paper uses the samples from the capital to describe the rest of the italian peninsula. there is nothing in the abstract that would suggest this. also way too early to compare it with mary beard's cartoon about britain. the discussion about this was way too bloated anyway because too many on the far right got triggered because of something unimportant.
    Maybe because they SAY it applies to Italy as a whole????

    It pays to read carefully, although maybe these people can't write clearly.

    " Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic."

    I have no idea what cartoon you're discussing.

    I also have no idea what the far right has to do with anything. That label certainly doesn't apply to me or to anyone posting here, to my knowledge.

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,869
    Points
    311,777
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,777, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Here's an important thing to remember about the city of Rome in particular. It was reduced to a population of only 30,000 by 550 AD. There was depopulation all over Italy, and the Empire.



    https://msaag.aag.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/26_Twine.pdf
    Oh no, that can't be correct. Don't you know that there was no fall? There were just a bunch of wandering German farmers who came because they liked the climate.

    For those who can't recognize sarcasm, that was sarcasm.

  19. #19
    Junior Member Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    S04ancap's Avatar
    Join Date
    25-06-19
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7
    Points
    462
    Level
    5
    Points: 462, Level: 5
    Level completed: 12%, Points required for next Level: 88
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G-L42
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U3a1

    Ethnic group
    Italian, German, Czech
    Country: United States



    I read in an online group that there is an Iron Age G2a sample from near Rome (fingers crossed for it being an L497)...

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    18-03-17
    Posts
    327
    Points
    2,064
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,064, Level: 12
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Ethnic group
    swiss,italian
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Maybe because they SAY it applies to Italy as a whole????

    It pays to read carefully, although maybe these people can't write clearly.

    " Using allele frequency and haplotype-based genetic analyses, we show that
    Italy underwent two major prehistoric ancestry shifts corresponding to the Neolithic transition to
    farming and the Bronze Age Steppe migration, both prior to the founding of the Roman Republic."

    I have no idea what cartoon you're discussing.

    I also have no idea what the far right has to do with anything. That label certainly doesn't apply to me or to anyone posting here, to my knowledge.
    but it did nowhere state that the samples from the imperial roman capital were used for something different other than looking at the genetics of the city itself or that they made any conclusions about the rest of the italic peninsula during the times of the roman empire.

    "As
    Rome expanded from a small city-state to an empire controlling the entire Mediterranean, the city
    became a melting pot of inhabitants from across the empire, harboring diverse ancestries from the
    Near East, Europe and North Africa."

    if you don't know the discussion about the cartoon then that's ok. it was no big deal but some people made an elephant out of nothing.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-11-18
    Age
    18
    Posts
    28
    Points
    791
    Level
    7
    Points: 791, Level: 7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y10561

    Ethnic group
    Bereber Arabic
    Country: Morocco



    i think this romans had a very large gentic diverstiy
    he orginal romans thought they werr on the Y DNA haplogroups RL2 and EV13 and RM269 and EL618 and RU152 and G2a and IL801 and mybe I1 and some branch R1a
    In The imperial era However there often a hreat diversitt maybe Y DNA haplougroup EPF2431 and EM183 and EV65 and EV22 and LM20 and T and RYP1276 and Q and N

  22. #22
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,869
    Points
    311,777
    Level
    100
    Points: 311,777, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Gosh, seems like anthrogenica around here all of a sudden. You know, everybody has a crystal ball that can look both into the distant past and the future.

    Who needs ancient samples and statistical analysis?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    18-03-17
    Posts
    327
    Points
    2,064
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,064, Level: 12
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 86
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Ethnic group
    swiss,italian
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    There have already been many rumours and speculations about the results of this study.
    and where did you find those rumours?

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,057
    Points
    106,174
    Level
    100
    Points: 106,174, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I was reading the comments of eurogenes, and apparently Davidski has seen the paper. While I take strong exception to the interpretation that he presents for the paper (recalling his claim of ABA "being just a few sailors" for Raveane et al); it seems the leaked PCA is in fact part of the Moots paper.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends1 year registered25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Community Award
    Salento's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-05-17
    Posts
    3,008
    Points
    42,480
    Level
    63
    Points: 42,480, Level: 63
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 470
    Overall activity: 77.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H12a

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    drip... drip... drip ...

    At this point, if anyone has it, just lick everything and get it over with.

    thanks :)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •