Rome as a genetic melting pot: Population dynamics over 12,000 years.

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Good job,

I speculate that the "Romans" near modern Abbruzzo/TSI, are Latins in the Imperial era; which are also close to Modern people from Lazio.
 
So, Etruscan IA is more 'northern' like continental Bell Beakers, while Romans are more Aegean?
And what about the Y-DNA? Is it a mix of males from one group with females from another group as elsewhere in Europe?
It surprises me that Anatolia N is completely in an outer corner. Only Minoans come near.
 
So, Etruscan IA is more 'northern' like continental Bell Beakers, while Romans are more Aegean?
And what about the Y-DNA?

According to rumours, still unconfirmed, the Etruscan samples (low quality) are R1b1a1a1b-M269 and one of these (the high-quality one) was R1b-U152+. Another low quality Etruscan sample would have been I1.

R1b1a1a1b-M269 and R1b-U152+ found among the Etruscans, if confirmed, are not strange, they are still widespread in Etruscan areas.

While I1 may seem strange but as Maciamo writes "haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. It is therefore possible that I1 lineages were among the Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by the wave of East Mediterranean Neolithic farmers (represented chiefly by Y-haplogroup G2a)."

T
he Linear Pottery (LBK) samples from Austria, Germany and Hungary are the ones who were closest to the mtDNA of the Etruscans in the 2013 paper (Ghirotto 2013, Tassi 2013).

Instead I don't remember the rumors about the Y-DNA of the Roman samples. Latins should be seen separately from the Romans. All Latins became Romans but not all Romans were of Latin descent.


Is it a mix of males from one group with females from another group as elsewhere in Europe?.

This is potentially true for any Iron Age ethnos, especially in southern Europe.


It surprises me that Anatolia N is completely in an outer corner. Only Minoans come near.

It also depends on the type of PCA. Anyway Minoans can be modelled as if they had been 80% Anatolia_N (ENF), so nothing strange.
 
According to rumours, still unconfirmed, the Etruscan samples (low quality) are R1b1a1a1b-M269 and one of these (the high-quality one) was R1b-U152+. Another low quality Etruscan sample would have been I1.

R1b1a1a1b-M269 and R1b-U152+ found among the Etruscans, if confirmed, are not strange, they are still widespread in Etruscan areas.

While I1 may seem strange but as Maciamo writes "haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. (2014)). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion. It is therefore possible that I1 lineages were among the Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers that were assimilated by the wave of East Mediterranean Neolithic farmers (represented chiefly by Y-haplogroup G2a)."
T
he Linear Pottery (LBK) samples from Austria, Germany and Hungary are the ones who were closest to the mtDNA of the Etruscans in the 2013 paper (Ghirotto 2013, Tassi 2013).

Instead I don't remember the rumors about the Y-DNA of the Roman samples. Latins should be seen separately from the Romans. All Latins became Romans but not all Romans were of Latin descent.




This is potentially true for any Iron Age ethnos, especially in southern Europe.




It also depends on the type of PCA. Anyway Minoans can be modelled as if they had been 80% Anatolia_N (ENF), so nothing strange.

Thanks very much, Pax.

The comment you made about the relationship between Etruscans, Latins and Romans (which I bolded) should be repeated every time people discuss the genetics of the "Romans". Well put.

Indeed, it's the same story which happened all over Europe, with Indo-European males and "local" women mixing, although in northern and central Europe we see more steppe mtDna, but the percentages are different in Southern Europe for that and other reasons we've discussed often. The yDna and mtDna reflect that. The Etruscans and, indeed, the Latins, if the reports are correct, and if the PCA reflects other analyses, have even a bit less steppe ancestry than the modern day Spanish and Northern Italians/Tuscans.

That Etruscan mtDna was always an important clue, but a lot of people refused to see the implications. Was it Barbujani who came to that conclusion? I always thought he was more on point than Piazza and his crew.

It will be interesting to compare the Etruscans and Latins to other ancient samples from Italy, like the Parma Beakers, for example, or even Otzi. For goodness sakes', if the Reich Lab and/or Johannes Krause is indeed working on Etruscan samples I hope they, unlike these shoemakers, have the sense to make some comparisons, and hopefully get some Terramare and other ancient dna as well so we can get a look at the changes over time.
 
hope for e1b1b1 :)
even e-v13 which is not my clade .....
today v-13 is found in nice number in north italy/ lombardia/ veneto
so we need more research on ancient italic individuals .....
 

That map represent a recent paper stating that umbri came from around modern vienna and then laft for italy circa 2300bc

The italics are the umbri

We also known that samnites, sabines, sabellics of italy all came out of the umbri
 
hope for e1b1b1 :)
even e-v13 which is not my clade .....
today v-13 is found in nice number in north italy/ lombardia/ veneto
so we need more research on ancient italic individuals .....

My guess is that the romans of circa 500 bc. Will be haplogroups of J2 and E in majority
 
Good job,

I speculate that the "Romans" near modern Abbruzzo/TSI, are Latins in the Imperial era; which are also close to Modern people from Lazio.


I've counted 25 Roman samples. The average of all 25 seems closer to Italian_South. The northernmost Romans are, in my opinion, closer to Italian Abruzzo than to TSI. So probably also close to modern people from Lazio.
 
My guess is that the romans of circa 500 bc. Will be haplogroups of J2 and E in majority

Yet autosomally the same as Etruscans????

The "Romans" of 500 AD, maybe.

Let's keep in mind that the "Romans" of 500 BC are going to be closer to "Latins" and different from the "Romans" of 50 AD even.
 
I've counted 25 Roman samples. The average of all 25 seems closer to Italian_South. The northernmost Romans are, in my opinion, closer to Italian Abruzzo than to TSI. So probably also close to modern people from Lazio.

Where do the Republican Era samples cluster? Or do we not know the dates yet?

If the Latins and Etruscans are very similar, I'd be surprised if the early Republican Era samples cluster with Abruzzo. I'd think they'd be closer to southern Tuscans.
 
Could be,🤔
the rumor is that there are some j2b in the latins sample so i might be wrong lets wait...
The other rumor is the e1b1b they found in the south is e-z830 and not the typical european e-v13
There are some j1 and j2a in the south.....
Can't wait for this paper
 
Where do the Republican Era samples cluster? Or do we not know the dates yet?

If the Latins and Etruscans are very similar, I'd be surprised if the early Republican Era samples cluster with Abruzzo. I'd think they'd be closer to southern Tuscans.


I think the northernmost Romans are also the oldest, so probably Republican Era.
 
I think the northernmost Romans are also the oldest, so probably Republican Era.

If that turns out to be the case it looks like southern Toscana, northern Lazio to me for most of them, but I guess we'll soon see.
 
Could be,������
the rumor is that there are some j2b in the latins sample so i might be wrong lets wait...
The other rumor is the e1b1b they found in the south is e-z830 and not the typical european e-v13
There are some j1 and j2a in the south.....
Can't wait for this paper

There's been so much confusion that I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think all the samples for the Hannah Moots paper are from Rome, and many from the port of Ostia.

There would be absolutely nothing unusual about J1 and J2a and E-Z830 showing up in merchants from Ostia. It would be like being surprised to find R1b yDna in the British trade cantons of 19th century Shanghai.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if some of these samples come from merchant areas, bear eastern names and are buried according to eastern rites, they're not "Romans" of any description. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp on certain sites.

Well, yes, I do know, I guess.
 
There's been so much confusion that I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think all the samples for the Hannah Moots paper are from Rome, and many from the port of Ostia.

There would be absolutely nothing unusual about J1 and J2a and E-Z830 showing up in merchants from Ostia. It would be like being surprised to find R1b yDna in the British trade cantons of 19th century Shanghai.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but if some of these samples come from merchant areas, bear eastern names and are buried according to eastern rites, they're not "Romans" of any description. I don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp on certain sites.

Well, yes, I do know, I guess.

personally for me it is important because it could be the entrance point in time of e-m123 to med-europe
but yes i understand what you mean .....:unsure:
 
I think the northernmost Romans are also the oldest, so probably Republican Era.

yes, that would seem more logic to me
the oldest were more similar to Etruscan
only later they admixed with Greek from Southern Italy
 
If that turns out to be the case it looks like southern Toscana, northern Lazio to me for most of them, but I guess we'll soon see.

The average of the northernmost Romans more like Italian Abruzzo or between modern Lazio and Abruzzo.
 
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