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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    What Denisovans may have looked like


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    scientists counterdict each other on the eye colour of the Sintashta people, yet they are capable of reconstructing Denisovans in all its details?

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    Basically ancient altai people clusters with UP type and cromagnon. So their skull seem to have rectangular orbit like this:



    but their eye shape seems to like this with really large mouth. This kind of artifact was found in Hongshan neolithic and sanxingdu in china:



    So I think modern data could not be applied to ancient people in case of reconstruction. Maybe modern genetic tool also

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Basically ancient altai people clusters with UP type and cromagnon. So their skull seem to have rectangular orbit like this:



    but their eye shape seems to like this with really large mouth. This kind of artifact was found in Hongshan neolithic and sanxingdu in china:



    So I think modern data could not be applied to ancient people in case of reconstruction. Maybe modern genetic tool also
    Just my point Johen
    there was not something as an paleo type amogn Humans. Too long time was already passed since the supposed "beginnings".
    some chronological trend exists among us, tied to life style, nutrition and physical activity + genetic drift.
    So, compared to us, Paleo types shared some traits. So called rocusticity of skeleton, some archaic traits, but even there, every group had its proper selection of archaic traits and evolved traits, often opposed.
    The typical square orbits of 'croma' grand'pa and 'brünn' grand'pa (not identical by the way) are rather a West-Central Eurasian feature. It's an evolution and it is not linked to far past: the great apes and a lot of the first Humans had not square orbits at all.
    We cannot decide how an ancient pop types were. We need skeletons, bones. I'm not aware of the last events, but I believe I read somewhere that we have no available part of Denisovan body. To reconstruct bony features only on auDNA is not credible to me, at this point of our knowledge. Some day it will become possible, not yet. And with bones, to reconstruct the flesh parts of body is even an harder challenge (so many parameters!). Sorry if I disappoint someones here.
    But we can make guesses if we want. My conclusion is that to know ancient pops will not give us a lot more of help to guess Denisovan features than our knowledge of our present day pops. Time but also place have a big role.
    Oidhche mhath. Nos dda. Nos vad. Nos vas.

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    That first picture was produced on MS Paint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    That first picture was produced on MS Paint.
    It was published by Cell, so it is officially from the study. However, I don't think it was necessarily produced on MS Paint.

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    “Às vezes ouço passar o vento; e só de ouvir o vento passar, vale a pena ter nascido”.
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    I think she sort of looks Native American.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    They're not saying this is exact; it's just probabilities.

    Totally subjective comment, butt she looks less "brutish" to my eye than do the Neanderthals.

    As for the "conflict" about the pigmentation of Sintashta, the scuttlebut is that the first tested samples were contaminated. I doubt Razib Khan would make that up. We've come a long way since those early days in making sure we're getting only the ancient alleles.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    They're not saying this is exact; it's just probabilities.
    Totally subjective comment, butt she looks less "brutish" to my eye than do the Neanderthals.
    As for the "conflict" about the pigmentation of Sintashta, the scuttlebut is that the first tested samples were contaminated. I doubt Razib Khan would make that up. We've come a long way since those early days in making sure we're getting only the ancient alleles.
    there is also doubt about Cheddar man, and it is not about contamination,
    it's about incertanty
    and no, I'm not quoting Davidsky

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...white-all.html

    and this is about something trivial, as skin colour

    today they still can't even pinpoint the origin and spread of some far more important features, like lactose intolerance

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    Geneticians are like blind people seaching their way in dark. Their work need a great sample, and a step to step approach of the loci concerned or supposed to be, it takes time to get close to the almost sure locus responsible, when there is only one, what is not sure all the time. At least, it's my perception. No god revelation, only tries and errors before some result.

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    Did they use the Xuchang 2 cranium for the projected shape of the skull?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The study says that, according to their genetic analysis (they compared the gene variants found in the Denisovan DNA sample to similar gene variants that are linked to abnormal physical features in modern humans, if I understood correct), the Denisovans had a wide skull and also a wide jaw. Going by those pictures, it looks like they had very big mouths, too. I know this will sound extremely speculative and even controversial, but I do now wonder if the very distinctive looks of some Papuans and Australian aboriginals, in which big wide mouths are a highlight, have something to do with the inherited Denisovan traits, given that they are the modern humans with highest Denisovan DNA ancestry, reaching IIRC as much as 6%.







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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interb..._modern_humans
    In Papuans, assimilated Neanderthal inheritance is found in highest frequency in genes expressed in the brain, whereas Denisovan DNA has the highest frequency in genes expressed in bones and other tissu
    es.[39]
    https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/...19720018400115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The study says that, according to their genetic analysis (they compared the gene variants found in the Denisovan DNA sample to similar gene variants that are linked to abnormal physical features in modern humans, if I understood correct), the Denisovans had a wide skull and also a wide jaw. Going by those pictures, it looks like they had very big mouths, too. I know this will sound extremely speculative and even controversial, but I do now wonder if the very distinctive looks of some Papuans and Australian aboriginals, in which big wide mouths are a highlight, have something to do with the inherited Denisovan traits, given that they are the modern humans with highest Denisovan DNA ancestry, reaching IIRC as much as 6%.
    a bit of topic

    there were 2 Denisova admix events :
    46 ka ancestral to both Papua and Australia Aboriginee
    and 30 ka ancestral to Papua

    note that both Papuans and Aboriginees all have C1b or K2 Y-DNA, with TMRCA 45 ka, younger than the 1st admix event
    it means these C1b and K2 males drove the other males to extinction and mated with their daughters, who in turn carried the Denisovan admix

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    note that both Papuans and Aboriginees all have C1b or K2 Y-DNA, with TMRCA 45 ka, younger than the 1st admix event
    it means these C1b and K2 males drove the other males to extinction and mated with their daughters, who in turn carried the Denisovan admix
    What abt. the mtDNA of Papuans and Aboriginees?
    Father's MDKAs
    Male lineage: G2a-L497 -> G2a-L42; TV, Italy.
    Female lineage: T1b (unkown subclade); TV, Italy.

    Mother's MDKAs
    Male lineage: R1b-U152 -> R1b-L2 (xZ49, Z367); TV, Italy.
    Female lineage: H1e*; PN, Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    What abt. the mtDNA of Papuans and Aboriginees?
    I've read a study once
    they have some very old clades of P and M, but I don't remember the details any more
    but as long as we don't have reliable TMCRA's for the mtDNA pedigre, it doesn't matter

    what I do remember about autosomal DNA :
    the Papua's, the Aboriginees and the Negrito's split ca 37 ka

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Figure 4 Reconstructed Profile of the Denisovan Skull

    The drawing is based on the reconstructed skeleton of the Denisovan girl and the pigmentation is highly speculative. The Cell study presents a method for reconstructing skeletal morphology using DNA methylation patterns with a precision of 85%, while it does not analyze any pigmentation data.

    Summary
    Denisovans are an extinct group of humans whose morphology remains unknown. Here, we present a method for reconstructing skeletal morphology using DNA methylation patterns. Our method is based on linking unidirectional methylation changes to loss-of-function phenotypes. We tested performance by reconstructing Neanderthal and chimpanzee skeletal morphologies and obtained >85% precision in identifying divergent traits. We then applied this method to the Denisovan and offer a putative morphological profile. We suggest that Denisovans likely shared with Neanderthals traits such as an elongated face and a wide pelvis. We also identify Denisovan-derived changes, such as an increased dental arch and lateral cranial expansion. Our predictions match the only morphologically informative Denisovan bone to date, as well as the Xuchang skull, which was suggested by some to be a Denisovan. We conclude that DNA methylation can be used to reconstruct anatomical features, including some that do not survive in the fossil record.

    Discussion
    Interestingly, many of the Denisovan traits we reconstruct were identified in Middle and Late Pleistocene fossils from China. These fossils display various Neanderthal-like characteristics, but their phylogenetic classification remains undetermined (Bae, 2010, Li et al., 2017). Probably the most Neanderthal-like are the 100,000- to 130,000-year-old crania from Xuchang, eastern China. The similarity of these crania to those of Neanderthals, together with their eastern geographical location, raise the possibility that they might belong to Denisovans. However, without DNA, this could not be confirmed. The bones include the skull cap and base, but not the face or the jaws, and exhibit the following ten directional morphologies: (1) lateral expansion of the temporal bones; (2) low cranial vault; (3) lateral expansion of the parietal bones, outside the range of Neanderthals and MHs (Suzuki and Takai, 1970); (4) wide cranial base; (5) cranial gracility; (6) prominent supraorbital tori; (7) reduced thickening (restricted nuchal torus) of the occipital bone; (8) sagittal flatness; (9) short inward-sloping mastoid process; and (10) small anterior semicircular canal radii and more superior lateral versus posterior canals. Traits 1–8 have equivalent phenotypes on HPO and could thus be examined against our reconstructed profile. Strikingly, seven of them were identified as divergent traits in our reconstructed Denisovan profile (Figure 4; Table S7).

    https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(19)30954-7.pdf
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    Ygorcs,
    Everybody may speculate, it's one of our pleasures.
    But 6% is not as high as 25 or 50%, and when we see how much parents and children can be different for looks, I stay dubitative to date, about these pseudo-scientific reconstructions. I suppose all this will improve by time...
    That said, I think, at a global level, that these archaic looking populations (more archaic than our proper Paleo ancestors) have some chances to get closer to Denisovans than we have. But I could'nt say for details...

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