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Thread: Dacians, Costoboci and CTS9320

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    Dacians, Costoboci and CTS9320

    In one sample from Lviv, Ukraine n=154, 10 were E-V13 - so solid 6.5 % there.

    But the structure of these is important, this is what I can predict:
    no. 3 is certainly E-PH1173 connected to Bulgarian YF16967, very common in Greeks.
    no. 6 seems to match very well Russian Z17107>BY4467, Z38456- (not on YFull)
    no. 8 is certainly Z17107, Z38456- another different clade certainly related to Ukrainian from FTDNA around there. About these if Russian BY4467 is Y30991- then this Ukrainian is most likely Y30991+ (but confirmed Z38456-).
    no. 9 is certainly related to E-BY4518>BY4507 YF10535 Pole at YFull
    no. 10 actually resembles the E-CTS6377* subclade, second option is some relation to no.9
    no. 11 is certainly E-BY4518 and related to YF10675 Slovak
    no. 12 is certainly related to YF01613, E-(BY4526)>Y41959
    no. 14 seems likely E-BY4404, has some important STRs like 456=18 + 456=17 and matches one BY4404 well.
    no. 13 seems possibly CTS9320 but not sure which subclade.

    Overall CTS9320 dominates in Lviv. Even if E-PH1173 is a recent migrant from the South as this clade is very widespread around the Balkans especially in Greece, others do not seem to be migrants.

    Elsewhere, the very common clade among the Rusyn people is E-CTS9320>BY4526>S10743, which is related to YF15857 Hungarian at YFull. Interestingly one Rusyn haplotype looks very similar to E-Z25461>BY20073 sharing multiple off-modal slow STR's such as dys390=23, dys448=19and might be in some relation to BY20073 Italian YF10128.

    E-Z17107>Y81971 in NE Hungary.
    E-Z17107>Y30991>A24048 around Cluj-Napoca and in Karcag (Cumania), this is my own clade, but these two seem very distant from me surely about 2000 years looking at 111 STR's. Yet as in the Balkans my clade is often found around Nomad traces (Pecenjevce in Serbia, and Kumanica in Bijelo Polje) I wish to find some closer relatives in Cumania. Btw. One Hungarian Besenyő (Pecheneg) was tested as V13+ at Serbian Project, he might be some E-BY4518.

    E-CTS9320*, related to Bulgarian S26015* from Lovetch (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, BY4524-) is found in one Macedonian from a study but also in:
    RU383 Romanian from Dolj
    H10 Romanian from Bihar
    46 Szekely from Miercurea Ciuc
    ht13 Romanian from Piatra Neamt/Buhusi

    As Northern haplotypes show some off-modal values their base might be the North.

    One Romanian at FTDNA is CTS9320+ but nothing under tested, doesn't match well any clade.

    Moldovan Z16988 who is Z27131-, Z38664-. He belongs to a subclade of DYS531=11 but he is very basal at that level.

    RO71 Romanian from Călărași is surely S26015* (CTS9320 level) and related to Bulgarian from NW Bulgaria tested at FTDNA. This is another CTS9320* clade not present at YFull.

    Romanian from SW Romania is E-Z25461, BY4518- who posted here. I know he ordered NGS so I hope he uploads to YFull.

    There is also some Romanian CTS9320 from Tirgu-Neamt, but no STR's. One Szekely belongs to Z17107>Y161798.

    Lviv is the area of Lipitsa culture, Dacian culture associated with Costoboci, and it is hard to believe that this diversity of CTS9320 there is not connected to Lipitsa culture.

    Elements of Lipitsa culture later in 3rd century AD migrated to the south to form the Carpathian Kurgans culture.

    It seems CTS9320 in general has more of a Dacian proper, and less so Getic orientation. Many/most Romanian short haplotypes cannot be predicted, so some other interesting clades might lie there. Romanians are a very undertested people and that must change to obtain a proper picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    In one sample from Lviv, Ukraine n=154, 10 were E-V13 - so solid 6.5 % there.

    But the structure of these is important, this is what I can predict:
    no. 3 is surely E-PH1173 connected to Bulgarian YF16967 very common in Greeks
    no. 6 seems to match very well Russian Z17107>BY4467, Z38456- (not on YFull)
    no. 8 is certainly Z17107, Z38456- another different clade certainly related to Ukrainian from FTDNA around there. About these if Russian BY4467 is Y30991- then this Ukrainian is most likely Y30991+ (but confirmed Z38456-).
    no. 9 is certainly related to E-BY4518>BY4507 YF10535 Pole at YFull
    no. 10 actually resembles the E-CTS6377* subclade, second option is some relation to no.9
    no. 11 is certainly E-BY4518 and related to YF10675 Slovak
    no. 12 is certainly related to YF01613, E-(BY4526)>Y41959
    no. 14 seems likely E-BY4404, has some important STRs like 456=18 + 456=17 and matches one BY4404 well.
    no. 13 seems possibly CTS9320 but not sure which subclade.

    Overall CTS9320 dominates in Lviv. Even if E-PH1173 is a recent migrant from the South as this clade is very widespread around the Balkans especially in Greece, others not not seem to be migrants.

    Elsewhere, the very common clade among the Rusyn people is E-CTS9320>BY4526>S10743, which is related to YF15857 Hungarian at YFull. Interestingly one Rusyn haplotype looks very similar to E-Z25461>BY20073 sharing multiple off-modal slow STR's such as dys390=23, dys448=19and might be in some relation to BY20073 Italian YF10128.

    E-Z17107>Y81971 in NE Hungary.
    E-Z17107>Y30991>A24048 around Cluj-Napoca and Karcag (Cumania), this is my own clade, but these two seem very distant from me surely about 2000 years looking at 111 STR's. Yet as in the Balkans my clade is often found around Nomad traces (Pecenjevce in Serbia, and Kumanica in Bijelo Polje) I wish to find some closer relatives in Cumania. Btw. One Hungarian Besenyő (Pecheneg) was tested as V13+ at Serbian Project, he might be some E-BY4518.

    E-CTS9320* , related to Bulgarian S26015* (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, BY4524-) is found one Macedonian from a study but also in:
    RU383 Romanian from Dolj
    H10 Romanian from Bihar
    46 Szekely from Miercurea Ciuc
    ht13 Romanian from Piatra Neamt/Buhusi

    As Northern haplotypes show some off-modal values their base might be the North.

    One Romanian at FTDNA is CTS9320+ but nothing under tested, doesn't match well any clade.

    Moldovan Z16988 who is Z27131-, Z38664-. He belongs to a subclade of DYS531=11 but he is very basal at that level.

    RO71 Romanian from Călărași is surely S26015* (CTS9320 level) and related to Bulgarian from NW Bulgaria tested at FTDNA. This is another CTS9320* clade not present at YFull.

    Romanian from SW Romania is E-Z25461, BY4518- who posted here. I know he ordered NGS so I hope he uploads to YFull.

    There is also some Romanian CTS9320 from Tirgu-Neamt, but no STR's. One Szekely belongs to Z17107>Y161798.

    Lviv is the area of Lipitsa culture, Dacian culture associated with Costoboci, and it is hard to believe that this diversity of CTS9320 there is not connected to Lipitsa culture.

    Elements of Lipitsa culture later in 3rd century AD migrated to the south to form the Carpathian Kurgans culture.

    It seems CTS9320 in general has more of a Dacian proper, and less so Getic orientation. Many/most Romanian short haplotypes cannot be predicted, so some other interesting clades might lie there. Romanians are a very undertested people.
    Ai o obsesie cu Românii? Mai dute-n PLM. loooool...

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    Quote Originally Posted by I() View Post
    Ai o obsesie cu Românii? Mai dute-n PLM. loooool...
    Nope, I'm interested in likely descendants of Dakians and Kostoboki here. And it is my knowledge of V13 that is able to classify some Romanian short haplotypes, at YFull there is only one Romanian E-V13, had Romanians been more active I would have had no need to look at these much.

    Btw regarding Costoboci Romanians are less relevant than some other ethnicities around, only Northwestern Romanians are more interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Nope, I'm interested in likely descendants of Dakians and Kostoboki here. And it is my knowledge of V13 that is able to classify some Romanian short haplotypes, at YFull there is only one Romanian E-V13, had Romanians been more active I would have had no need to look at these much.

    Btw regarding Costoboci Romanians are less relevant than some other ethnicities around, only Northwestern Romanians are more interesting.

    Very quick response to such sophisticated text!

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    Nu știu ce tot vorbești acolo că sunt tîmpiyt

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    Folosesti goagal?

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    Eu folosesc.

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    DU-TE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    In one sample from Lviv, Ukraine n=154, 10 were E-V13 - so solid 6.5 % there.

    But the structure of these is important, this is what I can predict:
    no. 3 is certainly E-PH1173 connected to Bulgarian YF16967, very common in Greeks.
    no. 6 seems to match very well Russian Z17107>BY4467, Z38456- (not on YFull)
    no. 8 is certainly Z17107, Z38456- another different clade certainly related to Ukrainian from FTDNA around there. About these if Russian BY4467 is Y30991- then this Ukrainian is most likely Y30991+ (but confirmed Z38456-).
    no. 9 is certainly related to E-BY4518>BY4507 YF10535 Pole at YFull
    no. 10 actually resembles the E-CTS6377* subclade, second option is some relation to no.9
    no. 11 is certainly E-BY4518 and related to YF10675 Slovak
    no. 12 is certainly related to YF01613, E-(BY4526)>Y41959
    no. 14 seems likely E-BY4404, has some important STRs like 456=18 + 456=17 and matches one BY4404 well.
    no. 13 seems possibly CTS9320 but not sure which subclade.

    Overall CTS9320 dominates in Lviv. Even if E-PH1173 is a recent migrant from the South as this clade is very widespread around the Balkans especially in Greece, others do not seem to be migrants.

    Elsewhere, the very common clade among the Rusyn people is E-CTS9320>BY4526>S10743, which is related to YF15857 Hungarian at YFull. Interestingly one Rusyn haplotype looks very similar to E-Z25461>BY20073 sharing multiple off-modal slow STR's such as dys390=23, dys448=19and might be in some relation to BY20073 Italian YF10128.

    E-Z17107>Y81971 in NE Hungary.
    E-Z17107>Y30991>A24048 around Cluj-Napoca and in Karcag (Cumania), this is my own clade, but these two seem very distant from me surely about 2000 years looking at 111 STR's. Yet as in the Balkans my clade is often found around Nomad traces (Pecenjevce in Serbia, and Kumanica in Bijelo Polje) I wish to find some closer relatives in Cumania. Btw. One Hungarian Besenyő (Pecheneg) was tested as V13+ at Serbian Project, he might be some E-BY4518.

    E-CTS9320*, related to Bulgarian S26015* from Lovetch (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, BY4524-) is found in one Macedonian from a study but also in:
    RU383 Romanian from Dolj
    H10 Romanian from Bihar
    46 Szekely from Miercurea Ciuc
    ht13 Romanian from Piatra Neamt/Buhusi

    As Northern haplotypes show some off-modal values their base might be the North.

    One Romanian at FTDNA is CTS9320+ but nothing under tested, doesn't match well any clade.

    Moldovan Z16988 who is Z27131-, Z38664-. He belongs to a subclade of DYS531=11 but he is very basal at that level.

    RO71 Romanian from Călărași is surely S26015* (CTS9320 level) and related to Bulgarian from NW Bulgaria tested at FTDNA. This is another CTS9320* clade not present at YFull.

    Romanian from SW Romania is E-Z25461, BY4518- who posted here. I know he ordered NGS so I hope he uploads to YFull.

    There is also some Romanian CTS9320 from Tirgu-Neamt, but no STR's. One Szekely belongs to Z17107>Y161798.

    Lviv is the area of Lipitsa culture, Dacian culture associated with Costoboci, and it is hard to believe that this diversity of CTS9320 there is not connected to Lipitsa culture.

    Elements of Lipitsa culture later in 3rd century AD migrated to the south to form the Carpathian Kurgans culture.

    It seems CTS9320 in general has more of a Dacian proper, and less so Getic orientation. Many/most Romanian short haplotypes cannot be predicted, so some other interesting clades might lie there. Romanians are a very undertested people and that must change to obtain a proper picture.
    Astepti un raspuns? Este un adevarat delir... Ia-o incet si imparte in cateva zeci de postari, explica pe indelete ca sunt tampit. Poate este altul mai destept pe aci.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Romanian from SW Romania is E-Z25461, BY4518- who posted here. I know he ordered NGS so I hope he uploads to YFull.
    That is quite an interesting and detailed analysis Aspurg, but that is not a surprise as I followed your analyses, logic and deductions and you are always thorough in your assessments.
    An update regarding my sample would probably add some value to your findings..
    Indeed I was born in the SW of Romania in a region were Danube is filled with old neolithic settlements on both banks of Danube @Iron Gates/Đerdap/Portile de fier. Lepenski Vir and Schela Cladovei/ Kladovo's Skela to mention the most relevant ones on both Danube's banks.
    I have records for my paternal lineage starting with my great grandfather, born around 1890, but my surname is definitely of serbo/croatian/montenegrin origin, "****ovici" being a romanized variant of ****ović, had it been a local one should have been like ****escu. So I definitely do not see myself as romanian or more than the szekely you mentioned, though we might held (or not anymore ;) ) a particular passport. I see my lineage's affiliation with the country you mentioned being a temporary one, representing neither the present nor all my paternal forefathers before 18?0ish. With that being said, the relevance of my sample result might prove on the border of your interest regarding the dacians/costoboci and other ancient populations.

    Regarding the NGS, my test has been ordered, shipped back received and processed by the lab in February. Dante Labs the italian company whose WGS x30 test I ordered provided some partial results back in July, yet my raw data (.bam and fastq) files still to be delivered, with vague promises that in the near weeks they will come done.
    The interesting aspect coming from these partial test results is that indeed I obtained SNP files both raw and filtered and I do not have the SNP's neither for the newly proposed S19928 sub branches of BY104590, BY110859 nor for the older ftDNA "italian" subranch known as BY20073. So, for the time being, until my raw data will come available and properly analyzed by yfull I stay as a S19928*/Z25461* .
    Though I have the "terrible" feeling that yfull will either add my result beside the two italian samples as Z25461* or add mine and ERS255996 into a newly formed one ( see below why ;) ).

    But there is a something relevant I discovered while reading and comparing the SNP's from the files I received in that I share a SNP with 2 other S19928/Z25461 kits.
    My sample result, the PF#34 Sample from Francalacci Sardinian study, and a third ftDNA sample known as FT79653, all the three of them share a certain hg38 position. With 3 samples having in common a certain SNP, a new subbranch of S19928/Z25461 should appear beside BY4518/BY4507, BY20073 and the newly proposed subbranches BY104590 and BY110859. A quick check on https://isogg.org/wiki/FT_SNPs_0K will unveil which hg38 Position I found to link the 3 samples .
    Last edited by domogled; 26-10-19 at 15:26.
    S19928* (BY4518 G-, BY202815 G-, BY20073 nc, BY104590 nc, BY110859 nc ) / E1b1b1a1b1a6a1f~ && T2f1a1*

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    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    That is quite an interesting and detailed analysis Aspurg, but that is not a surprise as I followed your analyses, logic and deductions and you are always thorough in your assessments.
    An update regarding my sample would probably add some value to your findings..
    Indeed I was born in the SW of Romania in a region were Danube is filled with old neolithic settlements on both banks of Danube @Iron Gates/Đerdap/Portile de fier. Lepenski Vir and Schela Cladovei/ Kladovo's Skela to mention the most relevant ones on both Danube's banks.
    I have records for my paternal lineage starting with my great grandfather, born around 1890, but my surname is definitely of serbo/croatian/montenegrin origin, "****ovici" being a romanized variant of ****ović, had it been a local one should have been like ****escu. So I definitely do not see myself as romanian or more than the szekely you mentioned, though we might held (or not anymore ;) ) a particular passport. I see my lineage's affiliation with the country you mentioned being a temporary one, representing neither the present nor all my paternal forefathers before 18?0ish.
    Thank you. Interesting, do you have ideas about more distant whereabouts? In that area there is sizable Vlach/Romanian minority, and they are actually migrants from adjacacent Romanian areas starting from early 1700's.
    There is a small group of Serbs who are in a cluster with one Albanian. They are both confirmed as
    S19928+, BY4518-, but Serb has only tested Y23 (SNP at YSEQ), they are 3/18, so likely their distance ranges about 500-1000 ybp. That cluster has some distinct STR's like 390=25, 385b=17 so perhaps you might be related to them. This would be immediately apparent if you had some STR's. Also there are two Bulgarians who are S19928+ but again they have no STR's.


    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    With that being said, the relevance of my sample result might prove on the border of your interest regarding the dacians/costoboci and other ancient populations.
    Well BY4518 seems to be quite diverse in Carpathian area, with the TMRCA of 2000 ybp, with one Lviv sample being related to Pole and another to Slovak BY4518 (and I used word "certainly" so other than being same they share various off-modals with them), this clade is for sure among best candidates for a link with the Costoboci.
    Really depends on where you cluster, if you do not cluster with this Balkan cluster, then you might be local in some neibhouring area (NE Serbia for instance).


    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    But there is a something relevant I discovered while reading and comparing the SNP's from the files I received in that I share a SNP with 2 other S19928/Z25461 kits.
    My sample result, the PF#34 Sample from Francalacci Sardinian study, and a third ftDNA sample known as FT79653, all the three of them share a certain hg38 position. With 3 samples having in common a certain SNP, a new subbranch of S19928/Z25461 should appear beside BY4518/BY4507, BY20073 and the newly proposed subbranches BY104590 and BY110859. A quick check on https://isogg.org/wiki/FT_SNPs_0K will unveil which hg38 Position I found to link the 3 samples .
    Interesting, the whereabouts of FT79653 are unknown? Quite likely your relationship with Sardinian is distant but it would be good if you cluster with him, often I see still these samples at YFull unclustering more often than not.
    Well I'm hopeful they will recognize your link with the Sardinian, unless that position is deemed to be in an unreliable region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    E-CTS9320*, related to Bulgarian S26015* from Lovetch (Z16988-, Z17107-, Z17264-, S19928-, BY4524-) is found in one Macedonian from a study but also in:
    RU383 Romanian from Dolj
    H10 Romanian from Bihar
    46 Szekely from Miercurea Ciuc
    ht13 Romanian from Piatra Neamt/Buhusi

    As Northern haplotypes show some off-modal values their base might be the North.
    And a member of this cluster is sample no.65 from Novi Sad, Vojvodina (Veselinovic et al. 2007). In this study as can be seen by haplotypes other than Vojvodina Serbs, a number of people had certain Roma, Hungarian and Romanian ancestries. As this cluster doesn't exist in Serbs, it is highly likely he is Romanian from Banat, or maybe Hungarian.

    Importantly unlike other members of that cluster who have dys458=14 (non-modal for CTS9320) he has regular dys458=16, in combination with another off-modal it seems he is an older split in this cluster so indeed this CTS9320* clade seems local in Dacian areas, there are two North Macedonians from this cluster and sole FTDNA person (Bulgarian) but they all have identical haplotype pretty much.

    Of course this clade is "very lucky" to have 3-4 distinct (mostly slow) STR's at Y17 and that enables me to assign them all to this FTDNA Bulgarian. But as number of Romanians tested is very low, to get a better picture there is no choice for now other than to classify short haplotypes that can be classified with certainty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    That is quite an interesting and detailed analysis Aspurg, but that is not a surprise as I followed your analyses, logic and deductions and you are always thorough in your assessments.
    An update regarding my sample would probably add some value to your findings..
    Indeed I was born in the SW of Romania in a region were Danube is filled with old neolithic settlements on both banks of Danube @Iron Gates/Đerdap/Portile de fier. Lepenski Vir and Schela Cladovei/ Kladovo's Skela to mention the most relevant ones on both Danube's banks.
    I have records for my paternal lineage starting with my great grandfather, born around 1890, but my surname is definitely of serbo/croatian/montenegrin origin, "****ovici" being a romanized variant of ****ović, had it been a local one should have been like ****escu. So I definitely do not see myself as romanian or more than the szekely you mentioned, though we might held (or not anymore ;) ) a particular passport. I see my lineage's affiliation with the country you mentioned being a temporary one, representing neither the present nor all my paternal forefathers before 18?0ish. With that being said, the relevance of my sample result might prove on the border of your interest regarding the dacians/costoboci and other ancient populations.

    Regarding the NGS, my test has been ordered, shipped back received and processed by the lab in February. Dante Labs the italian company whose WGS x30 test I ordered provided some partial results back in July, yet my raw data (.bam and fastq) files still to be delivered, with vague promises that in the near weeks they will come done.
    The interesting aspect coming from these partial test results is that indeed I obtained SNP files both raw and filtered and I do not have the SNP's neither for the newly proposed S19928 sub branches of BY104590, BY110859 nor for the older ftDNA "italian" subranch known as BY20073. So, for the time being, until my raw data will come available and properly analyzed by yfull I stay as a S19928*/Z25461* .
    Though I have the "terrible" feeling that yfull will either add my result beside the two italian samples as Z25461* or add mine and ERS255996 into a newly formed one ( see below why ;) ).

    But there is a something relevant I discovered while reading and comparing the SNP's from the files I received in that I share a SNP with 2 other S19928/Z25461 kits.
    My sample result, the PF#34 Sample from Francalacci Sardinian study, and a third ftDNA sample known as FT79653, all the three of them share a certain hg38 position. With 3 samples having in common a certain SNP, a new subbranch of S19928/Z25461 should appear beside BY4518/BY4507, BY20073 and the newly proposed subbranches BY104590 and BY110859. A quick check on https://isogg.org/wiki/FT_SNPs_0K will unveil which hg38 Position I found to link the 3 samples .
    Pretenu... aspurg se pare ca are ceva cu... romanii. Mai bine nu ii mai raspunde, Da-l in ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Thank you. Interesting, do you have ideas about more distant whereabouts? In that area there is sizable Vlach/Romanian minority, and they are actually migrants from adjacacent Romanian areas starting from early 1700's.
    There is a small group of Serbs who are in a cluster with one Albanian. They are both confirmed as
    S19928+, BY4518-, but Serb has only tested Y23 (SNP at YSEQ), they are 3/18, so likely their distance ranges about 500-1000 ybp. That cluster has some distinct STR's like 390=25, 385b=17 so perhaps you might be related to them. This would be immediately apparent if you had some STR's. Also there are two Bulgarians who are S19928+ but again they have no STR's.
    You are most welcome. I know there is a sizable Vlach/Romanian minority in Bor district, higher density in Timok's valley, and Majdanpek's area but I have no idea about more distant whereabouts.
    I can speculate by adding the findings from my 23andme test, yet I'm afraid it would just mix things up.
    However here is a list of regions from Serbia taken from my 23andme composition ordered from highest to lower relevance:

    • South Banat District
    • Srem District
    • South Backa District
    • Sumadija
    • Bor District
    • Pirot District
    • Podunavlje District
    • Toplica District.

    Considering country's population and also the imediate proximity to the area, I reckon it is a very small number of DNA relatives, only 15.

    And then it comes my Croatian list of relatives, 26 DNA relatives from a population aprox. half as Serbia, and is further away from my birthplace region, basically all my Croatian DNA relatives comes from the Dalmatian coast:

    • Lika-Senj County
    • Zadar County
    • Šibenik-Knin County
    • Primorje-Gorski Kotar County
    • Split-Dalmatia County
    • Sisak-Moslavina County


    And finally it comes my BiH 13 DNA relatives, again in relation with country's population, all these being from the area neighboring the Croatian above mentioned counties.
    Bottom line, I know these 23andme dna relatives might paint a false image as they are from mixed maternal and paternal lines, so it is basically irrelevant for my quest to find more about my S19928 lineage.

    If possible I'd like to know more of the small group of serbs S19928+, BY4518-, I suspect there might be a connection there, so if you could share some more, it would be mostly welcomed.
    I am aware of only two serbian S19928+ samples: one is Peurac which is actually a sample located in Croatia, and another one, a bulgarian - Mladenov,a sample from Bosilegrad Kraji in Serbia, close to the bulgarian border, these two information being compiled from a serbian forum.
    The albanian S19928+ sample I am aware of is Gripshi Peqin I suppose that is the one you know about as well.
    Another S19928+ from the area is a north macedonian sample, but no further details than that.
    Please let me know if you have some more information regarding other S19928+ samples of serbian, croatian, montenegrin, or BiH origin, it would help a lot to update my knowledge.

    I put together a map of all known S19928+ samples, thanks to Steve, a highly dedicated E-V13 enthusiast from France, himself an S19928*, very active on haplozone forum. The map contains duplicates as the information has been compiled from 5 different sources, ftDNA samples being the ones we don't know much about their location else than their country.

    I am not aware of Dante's Lab WGS x30 .bam and/or .fatsq files providing STR's, that would be a great added value if it would eventually offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well BY4518 seems to be quite diverse in Carpathian area, with the TMRCA of 2000 ybp, with one Lviv sample being related to Pole and another to Slovak BY4518 (and I used word "certainly" so other than being same they share various off-modals with them), this clade is for sure among best candidates for a link with the Costoboci.
    Really depends on where you cluster, if you do not cluster with this Balkan cluster, then you might be local in some neibhouring area (NE Serbia for instance).

    Interesting, the whereabouts of FT79653 are unknown? Quite likely your relationship with Sardinian is distant but it would be good if you cluster with him, often I see still these samples at YFull unclustering more often than not.
    Well I'm hopeful they will recognize your link with the Sardinian, unless that position is deemed to be in an unreliable region
    I am equally curious if I cluster closer to the other serbian S19928+ small group or with a local N-E Serbian group which might eventually cluster in the area, it would make sense both cases.
    The SNP I share with the Sardinian sample simply baffled me. FT79653 remains an enigma for the time being
    One thing is certain, it has been named by ftDNA as such, it is either found in another HG or has to belong to a kit and its defining position, chrY 15931802 (B38) is found in both my SNP list and in Sardinian's PF#34 SNP's. We were suspecting FT79653 sample as being Koch, the German sample, but it is not confirmed. The PF#34 is also sharing other 2 SNP's with another bigY500 sample.
    By the way, FT79653 is not a Bartlett Region SNP but it appears to be a Poznik Region one.
    Only after getting my .bam file I will have some certain answers, and of course yfull's analysis will be the definitive one.
    In due time I will let you know about my findings, once my raw files arrived and submitted to yfull.
    Last edited by domogled; 28-10-19 at 00:02.

  16. #16
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    You are most welcome. I know there is a sizable Vlach/Romanian minority in the Bor district, Timok valley, Majdanpek area but I have no idea about more distant whereabouts.
    I can speculate by adding the findings from my 23andme test, yet I'm afraid it would just mix things up.
    However here is a list of regions from Serbia taken from my 23andme composition.
    South Banat District
    Srem District
    South Backa District
    Sumadija
    Bor District
    Pirot District
    Podunavlje District
    Toplica District.


    Considering country's population and proximity to the area I have a very small number of DNA relatives in Serbia, only 15.


    Yet I can't ignore my Croatian list and the fact that when it comes about the 26 DNA relatives and considering its population as being aprox. half as Serbia' , and also that is further away, from the region, basically all my DNA relatives there are on the Dalmatian coast:
    Lika-Senj County
    Zadar County
    Šibenik-Knin County
    Primorje-Gorski Kotar County
    Split-Dalmatia County
    Sisak-Moslavina County


    Then it comes also BiH with its 13 DNA relatives, again in relation with country's population and all these from the area neighboring the Croatian counties.
    But I know, these 23andme dna relatives might paint a false image as they are from mixed maternal and paternal lines, so it is basically irrelevant for my quest to find more about my S19928 lineage.

    I see, well I presume that you share more than 7 cM with those people, but autosomal DNA comes through various lines. I suggest you go to GEDmatch and see how you score in Eurogenes calculators such as K15, K13, Dodecad etc. It will be very apparent where you do cluster. Romanians are still quite distinct from Serbs and especially Croats. Those coastal area of Croatia do have elevated "Vlach influence" from what I've seen. I don't know well 23andme components, I hear they have those regions, is Romania also well covered there? If so then it is interesting you don't score with them.




    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    If possible I'd like to know more of the small group of serbs S19928+, BY4518-, I suspect there might be a connection there, so if you could share some more, it would be mostly welcomed.
    I am aware of only two serbian S19928+ samples: one is Peurac which is actually a sample located in Croatia, and another one, a bulgarian - Mladenov,a sample from Bosilegrad Kraji in Serbia, close to the bulgarian border, these two being compiled on from a serbian forum.
    The albanian S19928+ sample I am aware of is Gripshi Peqin I suppose that is the one you know about as well.
    Another S19928+ from the area is a north macedonian sample, but no further details than that.
    Please let me know if you have some information regarding other S19928+ samples of serbian, croatian, montenegrin, or BiH origin.


    I put together a map of all known S19928+ samples, thanks to Steve, a highly dedicated E-V13 enthusiast from France, himself an S19928*, very active on haplozone forum.


    Well it is the Peuraca and Gripshi. I also classified Keserovic from Zavlaka NW Serbia to belong to this cluster because of very similar haplotype on Y23 (and same Patron Saint). Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia arrived there around 500 years ago, so Peuraca also arrived from the direction of his cousin.


    Regarding that map, indeed there is one Romanian there, plus 2 "unknown" Bulgarians. I thought Mladenov is one of them. The other S19928+ Bulgarian is Hristo from Tsakonitsa. So I guess those should be those 2 from the FTDNA Haplotree. I guess chances are at least one of these Bulgarians/Romanian is not related to Peuraca/Gripsi as I haven't seen their haplotypes in Bulgaria/Romania. I think Mladenov and Romanian are from Geno 2.0, maybe this Bulgarian from Tsakonitsa has some STR's.. Overall we see Balkan having some presence in Triballian area, and ofc by archaeology and linguistics they had some distant relation to Dacians.




    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    I am not aware of Dante's Lab WGS x30 .bam and/or .fatsq files providing STR's, that would be a great added value if it would eventually offer.


    I am equally curious if I cluster to the other serbian S19928+ small group or with a local N-E Serbian group which might eventually cluster in the area.
    The SNP I share with the Sardinian sample simply baffled me. FT79653 remains an enigma for the time being
    One thing is certain, it has been named by ftDNA as such, it is either found in another HG or it has to belong to a kit and its defining position, chrY 15931802 (B38) is found in both my SNP list and in Sardinian PF#34. We were suspecting the sample as being Koch, the German sample, but it is not confirmed. The PF#34 is also sharing other 2 SNP's with another bigY500 sample.
    By the way, FT79653 is not a Bartlett Region SNP but it appears to be a Poznik Region one.
    Only after getting my .bam file I will have some certain answers, and of course yfull's analysis will be the definitive one.
    In due time I will let you know about my findings, once my raw files arrived and submitted to yfull.

    Ah, I didn't know they have no STR's at Dante, well then we'll know where you cluster once Gripshi/Peuraca do BigY. Alternatively you might order few individual STR's at YSEQ or FTDNA at low price. Even FTDNA Y12 would tell you if you cluster with Gripshi/Peuraca as Y12 contains their 3 unique STR combination of dys390+dys385b+dys439 (11). I'd consider this "economical" for the quick knowledge on whether I cluster with them.:)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I see, well I presume that you share more than 7 cM with those people, but autosomal DNA comes through various lines. I suggest you go to GEDmatch and see how you score in Eurogenes calculators such as K15, K13, Dodecad etc. It will be very apparent where you do cluster. Romanians are still quite distinct from Serbs and especially Croats. Those coastal area of Croatia do have elevated "Vlach influence" from what I've seen. I don't know well 23andme components, I hear they have those regions, is Romania also well covered there? If so then it is interesting you don't score with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Well it is the Peuraca and Gripshi. I also classified Keserovic from Zavlaka NW Serbia to belong to this cluster because of very similar haplotype on Y23 (and same Patron Saint). Vast majority of Serbs from Croatia arrived there around 500 years ago, so Peuraca also arrived from the direction of his cousin.


    Regarding that map, indeed there is one Romanian there, plus 2 "unknown" Bulgarians. I thought Mladenov is one of them. The other S19928+ Bulgarian is Hristo from Tsakonitsa. So I guess those should be those 2 from the FTDNA Haplotree. I guess chances are at least one of these Bulgarians/Romanian is not related to Peuraca/Gripsi as I haven't seen their haplotypes in Bulgaria/Romania. I think Mladenov and Romanian are from Geno 2.0, maybe this Bulgarian from Tsakonitsa has some STR's.. Overall we see Balkan having some presence in Triballian area, and ofc by archaeology and linguistics they had some distant relation to Dacians.


    Ah, I didn't know they have no STR's at Dante, well then we'll know where you cluster once Gripshi/Peuraca do BigY. Alternatively you might order few individual STR's at YSEQ or FTDNA at low price. Even FTDNA Y12 would tell you if you cluster with Gripshi/Peuraca as Y12 contains their 3 unique STR combination of dys390+dys385b+dys439 (11). I'd consider this "economical" for the quick knowledge on whether I cluster with them.:)



    The individual STR panels from YSEQ could be the only way to have a quick answer on that as I just noticed Y12 is no longer an option, Y37 being nowadays the entry level Y test from ftDNA. Comparing the prices of these 3 panels from YSEQ and the price of a Y37 test which might take months to produce its results, I'd most definitely go for the YSEQ's individual panels. As I already am an YSEQ customer since I ordered an E-V13 panel about one year ago, I assume the sample kept in their storage might be used for the STR panels test. But I'm confused a bit regarding Dante's Lab WGS x30 lack of STR's. Reading on DL's customers facebook group, there is contradictory information, some saying that the sequencing is not aimed for STR's while some others showed some yfull printscreens with STR's
    I have no clue whether the .bam file should contain STR readings in the chrY area or it is all just a matter of how the sequencer been set up.

    Regarding the map, it most definitely contains duplicates as it has been compiled from many sources, the "unknown" samples being generally the ones from ftDNA. OK so you think Mr. Mladenov is actually one of the 2 bulgarian ftDNA samples, on the map there is a "Mladenov" in Serbia as we thought he is actually from Bosilegrad Kraji. The romanian is indeed the one from ftDNA, we have no clue about its location so arbitrarily its sample been placed in the middle of the country. Same goes for all these ftDNA samples whose origin is known only by country. The turkish is placed near Istanbul while the north Macedonian near Skoplje. The russian near Moskow and so on. BTW the russian sample is from another source than ftDNA. I will update the map to reflect the information you gave me leaving then Mr. Mladenov in Serbia near Bosilegrad Kraji while the duplicate will be deleted as for the second bulgarian sample, Mr. Hristo from Tsakonitsa I will move its position to Tsakonitsa.
    I will add a new kit in NW Serbia to reflect your finding for Mr. Keserovic from Zavlaka NW Serbia.

    I have a GEDmatch account and I uploaded two kits there, one which is based on my 23andme v5 chip raw data and another which is based on my Dante labs raw SNP list converted into 23andme format. I did all kind of K36 Eurogenes calculations, here is one result,
    as for K13, K15, and Dodecad not yet, but good to know they are relevant. Of course Romania is very well covered by 23andme, and in my ancestry compostion comes with a significant number of DNA relatives, although much more north western located than expected, but again being 23andme and knowing it is a test focused on the last 200-300 years, it doesn't bear much relevance. My interest regarding my paternal line starts before 1890. On 23andme I have more than 250 DNA relatives from USA, 50+ from Poland, 45 from Ukraine, 39 from Greece and about 36 from Italy, there is a big number from Slovakia, and Russia too.
    I speculate that the coastal area of Croatia having a significant Vlach influence due to the Istrian Vlach comunity. As far as I know they settled there in the Middle Ages coming from central and north western parts of actual Romania. It also happened the way around, there is a well known and preserved Croatian community in the Caras-Severin county, in the very same SW of Romania ;)



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    Quote Originally Posted by domogled View Post
    (...) Of course Romania is very well covered by 23andme, and in my ancestry compostion comes with a significant number of DNA relatives, (...)
    On 23andme I have more than 250 DNA relatives from USA, 50+ from Poland, 45 from Ukraine, 39 from Greece and about 36 from Italy, there is a big number from Slovakia, and Russia too.

    I speculate that the coastal area of Croatia having a significant Vlach influence due to the Istrian Vlach comunity. As far as I know they settled there in the Middle Ages coming from central and north western parts of actual Romania. It also happened the way around, there is a well known and preserved Croatian community in the Caras-Severin county, in the very same SW of Romania ;)
    Nu ai spus, ce numar de rude ai gasit in Romania pe 23andme?

    Poti face niste medii ponderate ale nr. de legaturi de rudenie pe fiecare tara, astfel incat sa tii cont si de proportiile populatiilor din tarile respective. Daca se gasesc pe undeva... si de ratele in care se testeaza aceste populatii. Apoi poti cred sa iti faci o idee mai buna in care dintre ele te incadrezi genetic preponderent.
    Last edited by ntindeo; 28-10-19 at 19:38.

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